Playing live to backing tracks

[strawdps]

My new band is trying to play with backing tracks live (with a click track)
I did a search but couldn't find any information. Somebody was telling me about saving the music as a wav file and panning the music hard left and the click hard right and then running my IPod into a small mixer.
I was thinking about bringing a laptop and my 002 but that might be too much of a hassle

I want to get the best sound sound quality under my budget
(around 400$)

Any suggestions

[dkelley]

get a bunch of desperate musicians to play for free... best sound quality probably unless they're all crappy

otherwise, that isn't a bad idea with the ipod. great sound quality, live is better in mono anyway IMHO so taking one channel of ipod as mono into pa for live output and monitor output for you guys too, plus the other ipod channel as a single sided headphone click track is great.

but I have no personal experience with this and have been wondering how to do it as well (same goal in mind).

Hoping to hear more people chime in on this one...

Don

[sekim]

I've used the same method via CD's and it worked fine.

[downbeatstudio]

Works with an iPod as well, in fact the only reason I bought an iPod was for that reason.

Just make sure you have full battery power for it or plug it in via the power adapter before playing live. In the middle of a show on tour, my iPod died mid-set, haha. Luckily we only used it for short loops/synth parts and stuff, so no one knew the difference.

[strawdps]

If I run the IPod into a mixer then out to the PA .... will the mixer effect the sound quality??

I was looking at a small new 8 track yamaha mixer for about 200$

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by strawdps

If I run the IPod into a mixer then out to the PA .... will the mixer effect the sound quality??

I was looking at a small new 8 track yamaha mixer for about 200$

nope. live sound is very forgiving, and mixers even the cheap ones are fine for it.

[PatBlair]

iPod/computer to mixer is pretty standard for the touring acts that I work with. For SUPER I've seen some use a splitter out of the iPod, with mono tracks even in both sides, but the click only in one side. The drummer gets the tracks with the click, the track only cable gets plugged into a DI box.
I recommend the mixer, tho, if you've got the $.

[kittonian]

I've used a Roland VSR-880 (it's a 2U hard disk recorder with 8 individual outputs). I put the click on channel 8 and all the other tracks are spread across the available 7 channels. I run the 8 outs into a small mixer and the drummer plugs his headphones into the mix where the click track is routed to the headphones as well as whatever other backing tracks he wants to hear (basically he has a separate headphone mix going on).

The main outs of the small mixer are set to go to FOH and/or we have the direct outs on the rear of the small mixer going to individual FOH channels.

You need to make sure that whatever you use (and I'll just speak about the Roland) is completely sync'd to your main DAW so that all the tracks and the click line up perfectly. Make sure to put 8 clicks prior to the point at which each song actually starts so that the drummer has a "1,2,3,4,1,2,ready,go" scenario on stage. Also, it helps a lot to find a solution that allows you to incorporate markers that you can jump to so that once all your songs are loaded onto the machine, the drummer can control which song is played by choosing the right marker (this why you don't have to have the exact same set list every night).

You may be able to find a used VSR-880 on eBay for a relatively cheap price. For the small mixer you could go with a Mackie 1604-VLZ (or any mixer that has busses so you can make the separate headphone mix).

The other solution to this that won't require either the Roland or the mixer would be a Digi 003R and a laptop. Just make sure the laptop is really powerful so you don't have issues when you're performing. You can do a separate headphone mix as well as direct and main outs, automation, plug-ins, etc. with this solution (although it's a bit more pricey to go with this, you'll have both an on stage solution and a recording solution, which is great when you're on the road and want to write).

Hope that helps!

[Granny Gremlin]

Originally Posted by sekim

I've used the same method via CD's and it worked fine.

My band plays live to backing tracks (no live drummer - drum machine or me prerecording beats). We started using a CD, but switched because the bass on stage will make the player skip. Had a few unfortunate incidents. Considered the ipod thing, but due to the crap output section and the cost we decided against that option (but if you already have an ipod...). I advise against using a laptop unless you want to edit/mix the backing tracks live - that's one more expensive and damage/theft prone piece of gear that's better left at home. We also considered 4 or 8 track portastudio type units but couldn't justify the cost (due to having no requirements for live mix adjustment - eventually we will get a resident knob twiddler).

So what did we end up using..... Cassette tape. Seriously. I forgot how good cassette can sound (if recorded/played back on a good deck; we use a NAD 6100) - and it's the most reliable thing I've found for backing tracks - we haven't had a single problem so far and it's been a year or so of local gigs. I bring a pre along as well to avoid running the deck thru a crappy DI. This would work for you as well methinks (2 channel pre; left are the tracks to the FOH board and mains, right being the click to monitors also via the board).

If you prefer the click on a set of cans rather than floor monitors just substitute a small mixer instead of the pre so you could send the tracks to FOH and click to headphones.

Skipping back and forth between tracks was a concern at first, but if you do your homework and mark down the time index of each start/stop on your setlist, it's not so bad... most often we just play straight thru without any cueing at all. It takes a bit of work and trial/error at jams, but you can set it up with the perfect amount of space after each song - some of ours go straight into the next song while in other places we leave space for introductions/announcements/instrument changeover .... the pause button gets a lot of use (I have the deck set up on top of my amp head) and recently I've only had to cue if our set got unexpectedly shortened and we have to skip some songs (which has happened only once).

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Granny Gremlin

So what did we end up using..... Cassette tape. Seriously.

"Hmmmmm... cuuu....sssseeehhh....tttt...... what is this strange plastic rectangular object you speak of? It rattles when you shake it, oh it's a percussion instrument! ......no? but where does the laser point to when it reads the digital data? oh, it's magNETic, ok, so it's like that dat thing with the spinning tape head? no? well it couldn't POSSIBLY be a linear magnetic audio storage medium, with that tiny tape width and slow slow travel speed, I think you're joking. Surely it must have been some kind of practical joke...."


One alien to another, 500 years from now, exploring the ruins of planet earth's doomed human race, upon finding an old memorex audio cassette tape and having a historian describe it as a music cassette.

Of course, this is nothing compared to the conversation that started upon finding an old 8-track of the village people.

ok, I'm really bored.
Sorry!

Cheers,
Don

[Granny Gremlin]

LOL - I expected that sort of reaction, but this is the 'low-end theory' forum is it not (and cassettes sound better than CDs or iPod any day, IMHO of coarse).

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by dkelley

live is better in mono anyway

i basically run programming, trigger crap, etc. in the live scenerio for a living.

and i agree, in 99% of all venues i've played in (smaller clubs, large 3000+theaters, out door stages, and everything in-between), mono has been the best solution. stereo is generally not effective. definitely less punchy, and the stereo effects are usually un/under appreciated.

the only thing about running mono tracks is getting from stereo to mono can be super tricky. so don't just assume bouncing your programming from stereo tracks to mono will just work, things will likely sound different.

basically when you combine the left and right channel you get some fun results, including but not limited to phase cancellation.

so don't just assume stereo to mono will sound right. you might need to spend a bit of time straightening it out.

when i program for live use, i program in mono.

[Meriphew]

I'm considering using an 8G iPod Nano (wav files) > Radial DI > FOH snake for backing tracks. My main concern is switching songs on the iPod. I guess making 'playlists' for each song would be the only way to keep songs from continuing to play, but then you have to pick up the iPod and change playlists after each song (a real bummer if you're performing solo ).

I wonder if running connectors straight from the headphone jack of the iPod (vs a docking station with dedicated RCA outs) would degrade the sound?

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by dkelley

nope. live sound is very forgiving, and mixers even the cheap ones are fine for it.

slight qualification on this.

it will impact how it sounds. but as dkelley says, you can get away w/ a lot live, and generally speaking low end small format mixer will be more than enough.

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by Meriphew

I'm considering using an 8G iPod Nano (wav files) > Radial DI > FOH snake for backing tracks. My main concern is switching songs on the iPod. I guess making 'playlists' for each song would be the only way to keep songs from continuing to play, but then you have to pick up the iPod and change playlists after each song (a real bummer if you're performing solo ).

I wonder if running connectors straight from the headphone jack of the iPod (vs a docking station with dedicated RCA outs) would degrade the sound?

my opinion avoid rca just run an 1/8 to 1/4.
degrade? eh. i've had more issues w/ rca connections in the live setting than 1/8 - 1/4 plugs. the rca seem to pick up some major noise.

also beware panning problems w/ itunes tracks. sound enhancement in tunes fricks up your pans a bit. not sure if the ipod eq/enhancements do as well. worth being aware of though.

[xopeth4]

Do not use a laptop. I am in a national industrial-metal touring band that uses backing tracks, and we use 2 sony mini disc players (one for backup) going into a mackie mixer onstage. A stereo pair of direct boxes out to the mixing board, and soundmen love us. And, they can go in your pocket when you leave.

We had a band opening for us one year that used a laptop for backing tracks - when it crashed, and it will crash, there goes your show.

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by xopeth4

Do not use a laptop. I am in a national industrial-metal touring band that uses backing tracks, and we use 2 sony mini disc players (one for backup) going into a mackie mixer onstage. A stereo pair of direct boxes out to the mixing board, and soundmen love us. And, they can go in your pocket when you leave.

We had a band opening one year that used a laptop for backing tracks - when it crashed, and it will crash, there goes your show.

blah blah. 3 years. laptop. no crashing. ever. never.

[roxxon]

My buddy did the one man band or duo trip with backing tracks for many years.He had some professionally recorded (programmed) drum bass, keys and r-guitar tracks on DAT tape, which he later bounced onto CD.



If you're going to use a CD player make sure that it's pro DJ CD player that can handle shocks and vibrations.
Those sound the best... cassettes have too much hiss and are greatly lacking in the dynamic range department

It's easy to blow speakers playing loud cassette tapes through them at moderate to high volume levels.

The best option:

There are also some high quality Pioneer karaoke DVDs or the old LaserDisc models that have some very good backing tracks...
and there are some other karaoke DVDS which I have that all the songs are all recorded by the original stars.
They sound awesome.

Karaoke CDGs are probably the worst option next to the cassette tape format.
Their sound quality is not nearly as good as DVD, CD, or LaserDisc.



And as someone else mentioned you can use a computer or mutitrack DAW to store and play your backing tracks on.
CD or DVD formats sound the best, proving that the player is shock-proof.

I-pods are not a great option, if you want decent sound quality.


Good luck.

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by roxxon

I-pods are not a great option, if you want decent sound quality.

what?

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by roxxon

I-pods are not a great option, if you want decent sound quality.

If you're using wav files I think the iPod would be just fine.

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by Meriphew

If you're using wav files I think the iPod would be just fine.

exactly. thank you.

[MooWahmBah]

This is probably axx-backwards ...but hey , I`m a guitar player ..

I don`t defend this use ...but it`s what I came up with ...

Please help me if there`s a better situ ...

I`m unfortunately commited to midi only ....which isn`t so bad beacause it`s a guitar trio with a singer ...
I try to keep it honest ... no back voices , strings ,,,,, I stick to pads and el piano or organ that sort of washes like pads ....
some extra drums and el perc

OK .... I programmed all this stuff on a Roland MC -80 with sounds out of a korg triton with optional sampled drums board and orchestral sounds board.

I lug the sequencer and the Korg rack to the gigs .. It has 6 outs .... drums L/R
pads L/R ... pianos in mono .The soundman mixes to taste and room ..

the sequencer generates click and I can arrange songs in a chain that will wait for a foot pedal command to start ..(which I usually press when the singer decides to talk between songs )

I have a love/ hate thing with this rig ....hmmmm , Make that a dislike /hate thing .

I`d like to use some real audio (guitars) . I have a PT002 and laptop.BUT

I `d MUCH rather go SMALLER ... IPOD won`t be practical for stop start and I`d hate to think all that info could be mixed in mono and still be heard and defined behind a live trio and a LOUD singer .

If I could have 4 tracks ... pads L/R/ drum sounds in mono /click
..I need about 16 4 to 5 minute songs .
ability to stop,start (by foot ?)

If I did an Mbox(2 outs) off of a small mac laptop ...could I generate click out of the headphone out of the laptop ????

thanks for reading this ! ,Paul

[roxxon]

Most people run mp3s for most of their I-pod downloads.
Wav files are much better sounding, of course.
The I-pod can be cumbersome to cue up.

[Granny Gremlin]

Originally Posted by frugalpole

my opinion avoid rca just run an 1/8 to 1/4.
degrade? eh. i've had more issues w/ rca connections in the live setting than 1/8 - 1/4 plugs. the rca seem to pick up some major noise.

Not if you keep them real short. If you do use the standard minijack out, keep the volume real low (the manual should actually tell you what unity gain is - my discman's does, something like : 'if connecting to another line level device, such as your home stereo, keep the volume set at 10"). Get all your gain from the board and not the iPods's opamp.

Definately use (mono) wavs on it as people have said.

Originally Posted by xopeth4

we use 2 sony mini disc players

My band considered that. Loved the small footprint and simplicity, track indexing etc. Decided against it due to the sound quality (the highs can be trashy, just like MP3s - similar data compression going on) and the unit we had would make an audible beep (via the output jack) any time a button was pressed.

Originally Posted by roxxon

cassettes have too much hiss and are greatly lacking in the dynamic range department

It's easy to blow speakers playing loud cassette tapes through them at moderate to high volume levels.

Hiss? Not if you record them properly on a good deck - the signal will easily drown out the hiss on a good tape.... in between songs the ambient noise in the club is also much lounder than any hiss coming thru FOH. There's also the option to use NR but that can dampen the treble if you're not careful.

Are you saying that clipping is a problem with cassettes? Because, again, that's a matter of setting input levels properly when recording (and using a compressor/limiter in the chain before the deck ti be really safe)... and also, as an analog medium, there is a degree of natural compression/soft clipping.

Since the tracks are mono, I set the left channel at a low rec level and the right channel juiced. Usually use the left channel, but the FOH guy once took the right instead.

If you don't mind me asking, roxxon, why did you switch from DAT to CD? DAT was another format we considered (and woulda been the winner had any of us actually had a DAT machine).

Agreed about using a DJ CD player, but if the CD gets scratched not even that will help you (bring a backup copy, or 3, of the CD).

Originally Posted by frugalpole

blah blah. 3 years. laptop. no crashing. ever. never.

You've been lucky. One knock, at just the right spot on the side or rear and the mobo is toast - crashes are most often recoverable in short order, but Laptops are not built road-tuff.

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by roxxon

The I-pod can be cumbersome to cue up.

That's my main issue with using an iPod.

[roxxon]

Well, I never personally heard the DAT tapes that my buddy used to use.
I heard the DATS transfered to CD.
My buddy's backing tracks sounded great.

In the past I have heard duos and singles who used cassette tape backing tracks, that didn't sound too very good. You can sometimes hear quite a bit of hiss on the tapes.
You're correct, you can limit that noise through the input-output levels.
And using a compressor would help out a lot.

While I have to agree with you, that if cassette tapes are recorded well and if you did work with them (compression, and levels) through the vocal chain, they should sound a lot better, providing that you know what you're doing.

The DATS were okay.
I had a pair of them in my basement studio for a few months when they first came out.They belonged to a friend of mine who was recording at my place, at the time.
I never really liked the way they sounded a lot when they first came out...
They did sound better by the time they were improved upon.
I had the first generation of DATS in my studio.

Scratching CDS?
I'll have to ask my buddy about that one.
He never mentioned ever having problems with skipping or non-playing CDs.
If you take reasonable care of your discs, that won't likely happen.
And yes, you should have back up copies, just in case.

Also, some of the pro DJ CD players are really heavy duty.
Stick them in a rack and they won't skip, as long as you don't dump the rack during set up or tear-down.

Back to the possibilty of damaging compact discs.
It's pretty much the same as Karaoke LaserDiscs or Karaoke DVDs or Cd-Gs.
I have some of them that have scratches and they all still play, withou skipping.
I don't have one dead karaoke disc and I've had a lot of them for a number of years.

I remeber one pro solo guitar player-singer-keyboard player who has been giggling here in Vancouver, B.C. for the past 35 years.
He's still good, too.

I remember that he was one of the first guys that I ever heard with pre-recorded backing-tracks.
At first he used a 4 track Tascam for awhile, then wswitched to an 8 Track Tascam Reel to Reel deck.
His backing tracks sounded pretty great for the time, but he also has a nice home studio and he can play about 15 different instruments.
He played all his own tracks and sequenced them.
That would be a ton of work.

I believe he is now using a Roland V-studio or a Korg muti-track to play his backing tracks live, these days.


I think that good quailty Karaoke tracks are the way to go.
Even the CD-Gs would sound much better than most cassette tapes you could make and you wouldn't have to go through as much trouble screwing, with EQ, compression, and input-output levels.


Just my two cents.

and we both agree...
The I-Pod isn't a great option, even with WAV. files.
Too small and difficult to cue-select.

[MooWahmBah]

OK Bust me if I`m hijacking ...this is the LOW End ...
But this is such a dire situ for me ...I posted above about the Korg Triron module live ...


Our soundman uses a new Yamaha O1V96 at all our shows .,...If I picked up a Tascam DA38 (for @ 250 bucks!) ...could the mixer and DA live happily via midi and automation ?...that would be sweet !!!!!!

thanks experts , Paul

[xopeth4]

Originally Posted by frugalpole

blah blah. 3 years. laptop. no crashing. ever. never.

Blah blah, huh?? 3 years, and how many shows? Like i said, i've seen 'em crash (my band's doing it over 10 years) and when it crashes, there goes your show. We opened a tour for KMFDM one year and they used laptops, but they had 2 laptops running simultaneously (one as a backup) plus the tracks were backed up on other hard sources. Even the big boys know that crashes happen. Just trying to help from experience. Blah blah.

[frugalpole]

as irony would have. i had a freeze yesterday. gulp.
50+ a year.

[necro2607]

Originally Posted by Granny Gremlin

We started using a CD, but switched because the bass on stage will make the player skip. Had a few unfortunate incidents.

So what did we end up using..... Cassette tape. Seriously. I forgot how good cassette can sound (if recorded/played back on a good deck; we use a NAD 6100) - and it's the most reliable thing I've found for backing tracks - we haven't had a single problem so far and it's been a year or so of local gigs.

Well you're definitely on to something. I know a pretty famous industrial band that does approximately this (not going to name names of course haha) - they run their backing tracks off either a tape or hard disk machine (can't remember which, but i'm leaning towards hard disk now that i think of it) with digital timecode going so they know exaclty when each track starts/stops. it's reliable as hell, sounds good, and of course conveniently rackmounted... I don't know more details but I remember them showing me last year and I thought that was a pretty awesome idea.