Schoeps or Earthworks

[caughtup]

Kevin notices:

"Can you really pick out the noise with Earthworks in a classical recording even when the levels are adequate. (?)

I know you need to be more cautious because of all the dynamics and level changes but I can`t imagine they`d be that bad."

Jeff Answers,
" They aren't." Thank you for noticing and using our mics correctly<G>

for clarity, Eric Blackmer was not the president of Earthworks. He remains the founders son, and was the director of sales and marketing until recently.

Our spark generator is presently set up and sitting within a walkin freezer behind a walkin freezer. You read correctly. You are welcome to tour Earthworks if your are ever in the Northeast, just give us 2 weeks notice so we can hide the winos and high school dropouts we have designing and assembling our microphones. For someone unfamiliar with this thread, that is a humerous reference to the supposed lack of sound R&D (pun intended) done at Earthworks... gee, I'm glad every engineer and musician I've worked with over the years posesses a sense of humor...
bye, Jeff

[Plush]

Thank you for the reply to my post, Jeff. I stand corrected on who I talked to at our engineering meeting. However, I did realize that I was speaking to the head of sales. The sale did not "get done" on me. Your sarcasm aimed at those who, perhaps, are not using your company's mics "correctly" is trash aimed at the amateur or neophite. It will never work on a freak of the indushtry!

Moreover, it's a dead end game debating the merit of one "good" mic over another. I was drawn into this discusion because the original poster asked for a comparison between Schoeps and Earthworks.

When one gets to talking about high quality mics, I'm simply a believer that the microphone should not make the sound. The performer or ensemble should make the sound, with the mics being neutral.

However, I am a believer in buying from a microphone only company. Am I naive in my demand that the supplier should concentrate on mics and accessories only?

Never once, in 23 years, have I seen your gear set up in a major concert hall as main or auxilliary pickup anywhere in the world.
Furthermore, if I remain in charge as hnic, it will never be happening.





dfegad

[PRS1JAZZ]

My God....... what an ego

Have you heard the Sigmas or the ZDT preamps???..... jeez

I am sorry you have such a hard line on Earthworks products.... Hey, its your opinion.... but common.... making threats about not using products is a little childish. I respect your time in industry, but please do not throw it around.grudge

Lets stop with the crap talk.

Bottom Line....

You are partial torwards Schoeps for critical sources...... PERIOD.

Cant we all just get along.................. thumbsup

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Plush

However, I am a believer in buying from a microphone only company. Am I naive in my demand that the supplier should concentrate on mics and accessories only?

Manley Gold Reference is a pretty damned fine microphone. Totally smokes the DPAs I've used (4011s). I for one am glad they branched out in the microphone direction for this one piece (never tried the Reference Cardioid).

Actually I'm hoping that Schoeps will even begin to compare to the Gold mics for my purposes... certainly Schoeps has a lot of other patterns including a pressure omni, which will do things the Gold just won't, but honestly, not trying to be snide, I'll be thrilled if the Schoeps MK2 and MK21 soudn as great as the Gold mics, with the M222 body or the CMC6.

[Plush]

Dear Sluts and Vendors,

Keep right on sluttin' and vending. Actually my ego is well in check unless provoked by salesmen questioning whether the
unit is being properly used-- as in the former inference direct from Eatrthworks that I would be able to hear magnificent sound if only I was using the mic correctly. What a moronic comment. In honor of these "abruptions" from you sales weasels, this afternoon I dumped both of our Earthworks mics out the window of a moving car.

I don't plan on giving you vendors any business, so this will be my, thankfully, final post on this particular thread.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Plush
Dear Sluts and Vendors,

Keep right on sluttin' and vending. Actually my ego is well in check unless provoked by salesmen questioning whether the
unit is being properly used-- as in the former inference direct from Eatrthworks that I would be able to hear magnificent sound if only I was using the mic correctly. What a moronic comment. In honor of these "abruptions" from you sales weasels, this afternoon I dumped both of our Earthworks mics out the window of a moving car.

I don't plan on giving you vendors any business, so this will be my, thankfully, final post on this particular thread.

No! No! Don't leave yet! Where did you dump them?! Maybe they're still there by the side of the road?!?!

[Killahurts]

I'm calling all the pawnshops in Chicago as I write this, and all the used dentist supplies shops as well!

[kevinc]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
No! No! Don't leave yet! Where did you dump them?! Maybe they're still there by the side of the road?!?!

Nice one Ted!


I did learn a bit about Schoeps from Plush after my inital annoyance.

Don`t go away now.

[PRS1JAZZ]

Originally posted by Plush
In honor of these "abruptions" from you sales weasels, this afternoon I dumped both of our Earthworks mics out the window of a moving car.

I don't plan on giving you vendors any business, so this will be my, thankfully, final post on this particular thread.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm............................................

I think he just proved my point. Thanks!

[Ted Nightshade]

The original question:

Originally posted by kidtexas
I'm looking to get a pair of SD omnis. Would you guys recommend Schoeps CMC62's or Earthworks QTC1's? If the Schoeps, would you get the cmc6xt? Will be recording just about everything you might use an omni on, but with a special consideration for environmental sounds.

I've read somewhere that Schoeps are fragile; are they anymore fragile than any other SD mic? Also, have read that the QTC1's have a high self noise... Please dispell or relate any other rumors associated with these mics :p

Also, if it makes a difference, at some point I would like to get a Schoeps M/S setup - while going Schoeps now could save some cash in the future since I could just buy the 2 capsules, going going Earthworks now could save cash if I wanted 4 mics instead of 2, since with the Schoeps I'd have to get 2 more bodies... Thanks!

Now for environmental sounds, which I've done some of, you need all the quiet you can get- quiet mics, but more likely the pres are going to be the problem. The pres will likely be cranked to maximum just to get the crickets or whatever to a decent tape level. Tiny, tiny diaphragms like the QTC-1 has can only be so quiet- Schoeps couldn't make 'em any quieter I don't think, and still be that small. Earthworks really went whole hog with the small diaphragm thing, Schoeps opted for a more typical compromise with the advantages of small diaphragms vs. self noise.

I haven't heard anything yet about the question of Schoeps fragility- it is a concern of mine. DPAs are damn near indestructible, I've dropped my 4011s a few times, and never was worried about it knowing how tough they are. There's a thing on the DPA site about how they left some of their mics in a tackle box on a fishing boat for a year... Apparently they worked just as well after. That's tough! So if you are recording continuous frogs for 24 hours in the swamp, maybe go DPA?

That's almost ridiculous, but if I drop a Schoeps is it back to the shop? Or back to work?

[kidtexas]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
The original question:



Now for environmental sounds, which I've done some of, you need all the quiet you can get- quiet mics, but more likely the pres are going to be the problem. The pres will likely be cranked to maximum just to get the crickets or whatever to a decent tape level. Tiny, tiny diaphragms like the QTC-1 has can only be so quiet- Schoeps couldn't make 'em any quieter I don't think, and still be that small. Earthworks really went whole hog with the small diaphragm thing, Schoeps opted for a more typical compromise with the advantages of small diaphragms vs. self noise.

I haven't heard anything yet about the question of Schoeps fragility- it is a concern of mine. DPAs are damn near indestructible, I've dropped my 4011s a few times, and never was worried about it knowing how tough they are. There's a thing on the DPA site about how they left some of their mics in a tackle box on a fishing boat for a year... Apparently they worked just as well after. That's tough! So if you are recording continuous frogs for 24 hours in the swamp, maybe go DPA?

That's almost ridiculous, but if I drop a Schoeps is it back to the shop? Or back to work?

I don't know. I've just read several things about schoeps being sensitive to humidity. Bernie Krause seems to like the Sennheiser MKH series for its durability in the field. Thing is, if I am going to spend $2500 on a SD M/S setup, I'd like to be able to switch it to a spaced omni pair for 700-900. With the Senns, I'd have to go for another 2000 in mics.

Like I've said earlier in this discussion, the QTC's are definitely on the list, but next time. I do think I am going to spring for an ultra quiet pre and mics.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by kidtexas
I don't know. I've just read several things about schoeps being sensitive to humidity. Bernie Krause seems to like the Sennheiser MKH series for its durability in the field. Thing is, if I am going to spend $2500 on a SD M/S setup, I'd like to be able to switch it to a spaced omni pair for 700-900. With the Senns, I'd have to go for another 2000 in mics.

Like I've said earlier in this discussion, the QTC's are definitely on the list, but next time. I do think I am going to spring for an ultra quiet pre and mics.

I'd like to hear more about the humidity factor- one major reason I want a true pressure omni is to work outside a lot. Any links? Schoeps experienced folks?

[kidtexas]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
I'd like to hear more about the humidity factor- one major reason I want a true pressure omni is to work outside a lot. Any links? Schoeps experienced folks?

http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_going_wild/

Its in the paragraph "Upper end". I have seen one or two other statements about schoeps and humidity while reading stuff about outdoor boom micing for video/film. However, nothing more was said than they don't like humidity.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by kidtexas
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_going_wild/

Its in the paragraph "Upper end". I have seen one or two other statements about schoeps and humidity while reading stuff about outdoor boom micing for video/film. However, nothing more was said than they don't like humidity.

That is a fantastic article! Wow!

I couldn't take it all in at once- I'm going to be back referencing that again and again.

I'd love to see any other great links on nature recording you have found!

I have the advantage that there's a lot going on right off my back porch... but I've always fantasized about having a little portable rig and hiking all around to record... as it is I can use all the tube preamps and heavier kit, and hustle it all in when it starts to rain. Man... a lot to think about!

[caughtup]

It (humidity) isn't the whole story of what to avoid. It is condensation on the diaphram. If you took mics out of the freezer into 50% humidity you would have a problem. If you had the mics running at warm ambient temps with 90% humidity, you wouldn't have any problems. (as long as you didn't take them out of an air conditioned hotel without letting them acclimate)There is electricity on the back plate of Earthworks mics, quite alot actually...(pre-polarised, back-electret condenser) the exact physical thing that happens eludes me, I'm not an electrical engineer, I'm a customer support dude who tries to speak in layman's terms, which with electrical engineers in one ear and a musician in the other is mostly like translating at the UN!

so please understand, it's a no-no. allowing condensation on ANY of your condenser mics... kinda funny when you re-read it...

Sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post about using the mics correctly. It just came out because alot of what I do on the phones here at Earthworks is help people overcome the self noise issue, and MANY times it CAN be corrected with mic placement. I guess it was a passive aggresive dig at plush for his "tone" about Earthworks like we are made in some kids garage or something. Sorry.

All you dudes with metal detectors in Chicago area, I suggest saving 2 grand by doing a sweep on the popular roadways. The mics will probably still work, we've had M30's drop of 30' catwalks and shoot flat... granted they were pretty lucky, but still...

As I said in my very first post to this question about ambient miking; the 22dB of background hiss may intrude on some sources...
jeff

[Plush]

We dumped the mics on northwest Hiway by the post office just south of Devon Ave. I mailed a letter last nite and saw em there in the rain. I won't pick em up, so have at it.

[Nevelicious]

Thought you were not going to post again.... hmmm proves my point....

[kevinc]

Originally posted by Plush
We dumped the mics on northwest Hiway by the post office just south of Devon Ave. I mailed a letter last nite and saw em there in the rain. I won't pick em up, so have at it.

You really did that man!

I`ll give you a couple hundred for em` if you wan`t.

Even rained on.

[kidtexas]

Well, I said I was going to purchase a set of Schoeps. I looked at the prices and decided that I would wait a little bit and see what popped up on the used circuit (I'd love to get a pair of cmc64's for around $1600-1700 - then I'd be able to get a couple capsules and keep it some what reasonable). Just my luck though I haven't found any. And with that, I read today that Schoeps prices are going up 13% at the beginning of April! Ouch.

So, I decided to get serious and figure out exactly what to buy. Without buying used, it means I will get less. I can't wait a couple weeks for more cash since the price is going up.

I looked again at the Sennheiser MKH series. Here's what I found:
1) comparable pricing to current schoeps prices
2) less noise
3) rumors of better humidity resistance

Looking into #3, I found this on the web:
"Another advantage of RF condenser microphones is their immunity to humidity problems. Normal condenser microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store a charge which varies as the diaphragm moves. However, in a humid atmosphere, the charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than into the pre-amplifier - the result is a noisy and reduced output. On the other hand, the RF microphone (MKH series) uses the capsule as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator and this low impedance circuit is highly immune to the effects of humidity."

As to how they really stack up against each other, I'll never be able to tell unless I buy.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by kidtexas
Well, I said I was going to purchase a set of Schoeps. I looked at the prices and decided that I would wait a little bit and see what popped up on the used circuit (I'd love to get a pair of cmc64's for around $1600-1700 - then I'd be able to get a couple capsules and keep it some what reasonable). Just my luck though I haven't found any. And with that, I read today that Schoeps prices are going up 13% at the beginning of April! Ouch.

So, I decided to get serious and figure out exactly what to buy. Without buying used, it means I will get less. I can't wait a couple weeks for more cash since the price is going up.

I looked again at the Sennheiser MKH series. Here's what I found:
1) comparable pricing to current schoeps prices
2) less noise
3) rumors of better humidity resistance

Looking into #3, I found this on the web:
"Another advantage of RF condenser microphones is their immunity to humidity problems. Normal condenser microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store a charge which varies as the diaphragm moves. However, in a humid atmosphere, the charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than into the pre-amplifier - the result is a noisy and reduced output. On the other hand, the RF microphone (MKH series) uses the capsule as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator and this low impedance circuit is highly immune to the effects of humidity."

As to how they really stack up against each other, I'll never be able to tell unless I buy.

Price increase! They're really forcing my hand here. 13% is a lotta bucks!

Very interesting bit on the humidity issue, too!

[Bob Olhsson]

You can probably look for EVERY German microphone to go up soon including Sennheiser. I've also very rarely seen Schoeps mikes turn up used and I wouldn't expect to find any bargains because most people who bought them paid considerably more than the current price. Because they have been the standard for orchestral recording and motion picture dialog recording for over 40 years, they are just about the polar opposite of a "trendy" mike that people buy and then sell a few years later.