Microphone contemplation - what's a great addition to complement Schoeps ?

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 04:56 PM

My main application is detailed and intimate recording acoustic instruments in studio (with some possibility of occassional location recordings as well). I have three pairs of Schoeps (MK4V, MK21 and MK2). After realising that I very rarely used the cardiods MK4V and they have been rather sleeping here for the last 1-2 years, I am selling them. I generally tend to like more spacy, less focused sound even on a single instrument, that´s why they may be sleeping here in the future as well.

Although Schoeps sound great, not always I am 100% happy with the sound. A typical example is classical nylon string guitar - recorded it sounds a bit thin and tiny "sharpish" comparing to its real sound. So I am strongly thinking of adding some stereo pair which would sound at the same quality level as Schoeps, but somehow different - more rich and more sweet ...

There is already one hot candidate: AEA R88, which I had here some time ago ... and actually liked it, although it seemed that I prefered Schoeps in the end ...tempting but still not 100% sure ... although really sweet, not sure whether it would really suit kind of open, esoteric, hifi recordings full of subtle details ... Would anyone have a courage to record a serious classical guitar with R88 and not to get into a kind of "vintage" touch in the end ?

Not sure about some LD pair. Both U87 and Horch (the mics I had the opportunity to try) do not sound very good on instruments, kind of artificial ...

Another contrasting SD pair ? I tried DPA mics some time ago and clearly prefered Schoeps ...

Any ideas ? Especially if you are familiar with Schoeps and yet use something which you sometimes prefer ...

mr.gefell · 9th April 2007, 04:57 PM

try some swedish mics or russian nevaton mics..

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.gefell

try some swedish mics or russian nevaton mics..

Swedish mics ? What is that ?

mr.gefell · 9th April 2007, 05:02 PM

Pearl dt-40, pearl cc22 or co22,pearl elm-c. Milab dc-196 these are all nice swedish mics. Haven't tried or heard the EHrlund mic though.

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 05:04 PM

Would you mind to add some links ? Thank you. Cannot find anything. Have you tried them yourself ?

mr.gefell · 9th April 2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Would you mind to add some links ? Thank you. Cannot find anything. Have you tried them yourself ?

www.pearl.se

www.milabmic.com

www.russian-mics.com

I own a dt-40, a ms-8 modified to x/y and have the dc196 for loan here.

the dt-40 is the bomb.

T.RayBullard · 9th April 2007, 05:13 PM

Pearl ELM C, Thuresson, Milab, Mojave Audio M200, Gefell mk221 with Josephson c617s

Opus 3 records now uses the thurreson stereo mic for their recordings. A good stereo mic would be nice too, Ivo..AKG 426, Neumann sm-69, etc..(I love my 426..easily my favorite mic)

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Pearl ELM C, Thuresson, Milab, Mojave Audio M200, Gefell mk221 with Josephson c617s

Opus 3 records now uses the thurreson stereo mic for their recordings. A good stereo mic would be nice too, Ivo..AKG 426, Neumann sm-69, etc..(I love my 426..easily my favorite mic)

I would actually prefer a stereo pair, not a stereo mic ... I don´t like near coincidence positions ... AB is for me :-) Or at least NOS

billgennaro · 9th April 2007, 06:10 PM

if you like the R88 why not also try a stereo pair of R84's? might work better for you if you prefer stereo pair recording. i use a pair of ribbons for acoustics quite often. haven't tried them on flamenco but you've given me food for thought on that one. what's funny is i've been contemplating buying a schoeps so i could try M/S on my flamenco with an R84 as the side mic. i've tried an SM81 in this situation and it sounds pretty darn good with the R84. thought a schoeps would make it that much better.

bill

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billgennaro

if you like the R88 why not also try a stereo pair of R84's? might work better for you if you prefer stereo pair recording. i use a pair of ribbons for acoustics quite often. haven't tried them on flamenco but you've given me food for thought on that one. what's funny is i've been contemplating buying a schoeps so i could try M/S on my flamenco with an R84 as the side mic. i've tried an SM81 in this situation and it sounds pretty darn good with the R84. thought a schoeps would make it that much better.

bill

R88 is the only case I would prefer a stereo mic. There is no bigger frustration than to put two mics on two stands in a Blumlein position ... AB actually does not work well for figure 8 ribbons. I had here a pair of R84 as well ...

mds · 9th April 2007, 06:37 PM

I've been doing a Classical guitar record with a pair of Gefell M200s with the cardiod caps. I'll grab an outtake so you can hear the general sound we're getting. You may prefer the omni caps, but it'l get you an idea what the m200s can do.

Mike

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mds

I've been doing a Classical guitar record with a pair of Gefell M200s with the cardiod caps. I'll grab an outtake so you can hear the general sound we're getting. You may prefer the omni caps, but it'l get you an idea what the m200s can do.

Mike

Thanks. I have quickly recorded classical guitar two days ago with a pair of Schoeps MK4V and Pendulum preamp. It was not a serious recording, just quickly placed microphones without any tweaking, while the guitar player was on leave (I should have placed them further away and also probably use wide cardioids or omnis).

Here are short samples:

classical guitar played by Stepan Rak - 2 minutes excerpt

for those with slow connection, here is the mp3 version of the same

mp3

mds · 9th April 2007, 06:59 PM

Recording Stephan Rak, very cool.

I've played some of his pieces. Good composer..never heard him play before. Are you doing a whole record with him? All original works?

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mds

Recording Stephan Rak, very cool.

I've played some of his pieces. Good composer..never heard him play before. Are you doing a whole record with him? All original works?

We spent 4 hours jamming and improvising together on Saturday (me on violin, viola, flutes) ...

He is an amazing player, I know him for years . He normally playes Greg Smallman guitar (as on that sample), but now he is in love with his very special STONE GUITAR (not joking), made from the 300 000 year old green "serpentine" stone by one Prague sculpturor. Yes, we plan some projects together - both performing and recording (including stone guitar :-))

Should you be interested, here are some photos from Saturday:

Together with Stepan Rak (he holds his unique stone guitar and me a huge Indian tanpura):

Playing his Smallman guitar (as you hear it on the sample):

Now you maybe understand why I am looking for a great setup to record such a master ... Maybe just using Schoeps omni will be a key, who knows ...
Anyway, the truth that even this rough recording sounds already better than the same piece on his CD recorded few years ago (Terra Australis I.). Yet, I want it sounding MUCH better ...

(BTW http://www.stepanrak.cz/oldweb/english/)

T.RayBullard · 9th April 2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I would actually prefer a stereo pair, not a stereo mic ... I don´t like near coincidence positions ... AB is for me :-) Or at least NOS

Ooh, I love Blumlein..but anyway, those manufacturers all make great mics. The ELM B and C from Pearl are particularly great for acoustic instruments. (Kavi Alexander uses them exclusively now for his waterlily acoustics recordings. They have the smoothness/pleasing character of a good ribbon and the transient snap of a good SDC, best of both worlds.
I think youd really enjoy them for your work.

mds · 9th April 2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

We spent 4 hours jamming and improvising together on Saturday (me on violin, viola, flutes) ...

He is an amazing player, I know him for years . He normally playes Greg Smallman guitar (as on that sample), but now he is in love with his very special STONE GUITAR (not joking), made from the 300 000 year old green "serpentine" stone by one Prague sculpturor. Yes, we plan some projects together - both performing and recording (including stone guitar :-))

Should you be interested, here are some photos from Saturday:

...

Very cool! Got any clips of the stone guitar? Talk about a great rock guitar! (groan)

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mds

Very cool! Got any clips of the stone guitar? Talk about a great rock guitar! (groan)

Yes, I have some short clip (done quickly), may post it later ...

d_fu · 9th April 2007, 07:25 PM

What's the budget...?

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d_fu

What's the budget...?

A good question. Definitely not more than 2000 EUR, preferably less

I looked at the Pearl microphones, look very interesting. But I would have to try them before considering buying them ...
I looked at the prices - quite steep ...

davebl@dircon.c · 9th April 2007, 07:49 PM

Hi Ivo,

I liked the recording. Could you be more specific about that you wish to improve up on.

I guess if anything is it more 'detail' you seek to capture ?

Dave

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

Hi Ivo,

I liked the recording. Could you be more specific about that you wish to improve up on.

I guess if anything is it more 'detail' you seek to capture ?

Dave

The guitar sounded bigger, fuller and sweeter in reality than on that recording ... Also not that sharp ... Again - maybe using MK21 or MK2 would be the required help. MK4V are somehow too focused it seems ... Maybe also Pendulum was not the right choice - it tends to colour HF.

Maybe the same Schoeps can sound slightly richer and more 3D with a different preamp ? (like Flamingo ?)

It has been a similar long term case with recording my own classical guitar. I always hear it sounding much better than recorded. When I tried AEA R88, immediately I heard that sweet sound I always hear when playing ... Back to Schoeps - little bit edgy and thin ...

klaukholm · 9th April 2007, 08:21 PM

Ivo,
how about simply getting an m222 body?
From your posts I have an idea of what sound you like and the m222 might fit the bill.
Maybe you have a way to demo it?

PM me with the your asking price for the mk4v caps.

kindest
Kjetil

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Ivo,
how about simply getting an m222 body?
From your posts I have an idea of what sound you like and the m222 might fit the bill.

$2200 for one body

I think a decent tube preamp could maybe do a similar service.

klaukholm · 9th April 2007, 08:38 PM

It is a different sounding mic with the tube body.
If you can demo it I would atleast try it.

You might also like the tlm170. Very smooth and natural, no harshness.

d_fu · 9th April 2007, 08:51 PM

Maybe that KM131 would work for you...?

Warhead recently posted an acoustic guitar sample recorded with an Audix SCX25 (PDF) in this thread, which I found quite impressive (compared to MTG M300 and Beyer 930). Never tried this mic myself, though. It gets a good deal of positive feedback here.

ISedlacek · 9th April 2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d_fu

Maybe that KM131 would work for you...?

For sure I was thinking about it

Is there another pair for 800 EUR somewhere around ?

What about Neumann KM83 ? (or KM84)

matyas · 9th April 2007, 09:12 PM

Ever tried a Gefell M930? I got to use one in a studio about a year ago, and got a very nice flute sound from it going into a Millennia Origin. It's an LDC, but it's transient response and dimensionality is almost SDC-like. I'd love to own a pair of my own some day, but it's well out of my pricerange,

d_fu · 9th April 2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

For sure I was thinking about it

Is there another pair for 800 EUR somewhere around ?

If I see one, I will tell you - maybe...

Quote:

What about Neumann KM83 ? (or KM84)

KM 83 has a slight treble boost, it's essentially a diffuse field omni. 84 is a classic, of course, but it may be a tad noisier than others...

pkautzsch · 9th April 2007, 09:19 PM

Just from looking at the pic (might be misleading though...) I'd try and position the mics some inches to the right (ie. neck), facing the body. Experiment with height.
I have found my own (very mediocre) guitar playing to be recorded best at about 5 ft distance and 4 to 5 ft height. Standard Schoeps MK4, not V. Room quite live with a little diffusion. I remember being surprised by the full bass a cheap Oktava 219 gave me in addition to the Schoepses, but I'll have to find (or record) clips.
Will listen to your clip soon, then hopefully being able to give more suggestions.

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9th April 2007, 04:56 PM	#1
ISedlacek Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Czech mountains and forests Posts: 2,815	Microphone contemplation - what's a great addition to complement Schoeps ? My main application is detailed and intimate recording acoustic instruments in studio (with some possibility of occassional location recordings as well). I have three pairs of Schoeps (MK4V, MK21 and MK2). After realising that I very rarely used the cardiods MK4V and they have been rather sleeping here for the last 1-2 years, I am selling them. I generally tend to like more spacy, less focused sound even on a single instrument, that´s why they may be sleeping here in the future as well. Although Schoeps sound great, not always I am 100% happy with the sound. A typical example is classical nylon string guitar - recorded it sounds a bit thin and tiny "sharpish" comparing to its real sound. So I am strongly thinking of adding some stereo pair which would sound at the same quality level as Schoeps, but somehow different - more rich and more sweet ... There is already one hot candidate: AEA R88, which I had here some time ago ... and actually liked it, although it seemed that I prefered Schoeps in the end ...tempting but still not 100% sure ... although really sweet, not sure whether it would really suit kind of open, esoteric, hifi recordings full of subtle details ... Would anyone have a courage to record a serious classical guitar with R88 and not to get into a kind of "vintage" touch in the end ? Not sure about some LD pair. Both U87 and Horch (the mics I had the opportunity to try) do not sound very good on instruments, kind of artificial ... Another contrasting SD pair ? I tried DPA mics some time ago and clearly prefered Schoeps ... Any ideas ? Especially if you are familiar with Schoeps and yet use something which you sometimes prefer ... __________________ Ivo Velvet Mastering Savita Music

9th April 2007, 05:04 PM	#5
ISedlacek Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Czech mountains and forests Posts: 2,815	Would you mind to add some links ? Thank you. Cannot find anything. Have you tried them yourself ? __________________ Ivo Velvet Mastering Savita Music

9th April 2007, 05:13 PM	#7
T.RayBullard Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Columbus County, North Carolina Posts: 2,431	Pearl ELM C, Thuresson, Milab, Mojave Audio M200, Gefell mk221 with Josephson c617s Opus 3 records now uses the thurreson stereo mic for their recordings. A good stereo mic would be nice too, Ivo..AKG 426, Neumann sm-69, etc..(I love my 426..easily my favorite mic) __________________ I think it is wrong to make everything equidistant from the listener with too many mics. The pasting-on effects end up like bad Photoshop work on graphics & photos - too unbelievable.-Tony Faulkner http://www.last.fm/user/TeddyBullard/

9th April 2007, 08:21 PM	#22
klaukholm Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 1,221	Ivo, how about simply getting an m222 body? From your posts I have an idea of what sound you like and the m222 might fit the bill. Maybe you have a way to demo it? PM me with the your asking price for the mk4v caps. kindest Kjetil __________________ Kjetil Laukholm European Classical Records CK Recording Malmö Symphony Orchestra

9th April 2007, 04:57 PM	#2
mr.gefell Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: forest and hills Posts: 1,123	try some swedish mics or russian nevaton mics..

9th April 2007, 05:02 PM	#4
mr.gefell Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: forest and hills Posts: 1,123	Pearl dt-40, pearl cc22 or co22,pearl elm-c. Milab dc-196 these are all nice swedish mics. Haven't tried or heard the EHrlund mic though.

9th April 2007, 06:10 PM	#9
billgennaro Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 563	if you like the R88 why not also try a stereo pair of R84's? might work better for you if you prefer stereo pair recording. i use a pair of ribbons for acoustics quite often. haven't tried them on flamenco but you've given me food for thought on that one. what's funny is i've been contemplating buying a schoeps so i could try M/S on my flamenco with an R84 as the side mic. i've tried an SM81 in this situation and it sounds pretty darn good with the R84. thought a schoeps would make it that much better. bill

9th April 2007, 06:37 PM	#11
mds Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,094	I've been doing a Classical guitar record with a pair of Gefell M200s with the cardiod caps. I'll grab an outtake so you can hear the general sound we're getting. You may prefer the omni caps, but it'l get you an idea what the m200s can do. Mike

9th April 2007, 06:59 PM	#13
mds Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,094	Recording Stephan Rak, very cool. I've played some of his pieces. Good composer..never heard him play before. Are you doing a whole record with him? All original works?

9th April 2007, 07:25 PM	#18
d_fu Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 1,358	What's the budget...?

9th April 2007, 07:49 PM	#20
davebl@dircon.c Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Gloucestershire Posts: 276	Hi Ivo, I liked the recording. Could you be more specific about that you wish to improve up on. I guess if anything is it more 'detail' you seek to capture ? Dave

9th April 2007, 08:38 PM	#24
klaukholm Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 1,221	It is a different sounding mic with the tube body. If you can demo it I would atleast try it. You might also like the tlm170. Very smooth and natural, no harshness. __________________ Kjetil Laukholm European Classical Records CK Recording Malmö Symphony Orchestra

9th April 2007, 08:51 PM	#25
d_fu Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 1,358	Maybe that KM131 would work for you...? Warhead recently posted an acoustic guitar sample recorded with an Audix SCX25 (PDF) in this thread, which I found quite impressive (compared to MTG M300 and Beyer 930). Never tried this mic myself, though. It gets a good deal of positive feedback here.

9th April 2007, 09:12 PM	#27
matyas Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 204	Ever tried a Gefell M930? I got to use one in a studio about a year ago, and got a very nice flute sound from it going into a Millennia Origin. It's an LDC, but it's transient response and dimensionality is almost SDC-like. I'd love to own a pair of my own some day, but it's well out of my pricerange,

9th April 2007, 09:19 PM	#29
pkautzsch Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 984	Just from looking at the pic (might be misleading though...) I'd try and position the mics some inches to the right (ie. neck), facing the body. Experiment with height. I have found my own (very mediocre) guitar playing to be recorded best at about 5 ft distance and 4 to 5 ft height. Standard Schoeps MK4, not V. Room quite live with a little diffusion. I remember being surprised by the full bass a cheap Oktava 219 gave me in addition to the Schoepses, but I'll have to find (or record) clips. Will listen to your clip soon, then hopefully being able to give more suggestions. __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl