The Loudness War at Concerts?

[quietdrive]

Went to a show this week at Irving Plaza. Sound was horrible.. WAY.. WAY too loud, which caused the mix to sound extremley distorted. I still have some sort of Tinnitus from the show, I hope it'll go away sooner or later.

Anyone experienced something similar, and is this is a new trend? Is the sound at shows louder these days than 10-20 years ago?

[woomanmoomin]

I wonder whether it would have sounded as bad if the PA had had more headroom or whatever. I have heard some very loud concerts but IMO it can be great if the gear and the mixing engineer are up to it. It also depends on venue acoustics.

I don't know whether it's a trend. I haven't noticed that. I doubt there are that many musicians today who are louder than The Who or Deep Purple were, but I guess in some genres (anything metal, say) there could well be...

[FossilTooth]

I would blame the soundman and the band before I would blame to the volume.

Loud shows are great. Just bring some nice earplugs that don't sound like a stick of rubber in your ear.

It's true that a band can be too loud for a particular room... But I have yet to encounter that issue at Irving Plaza.

Sometimes I feel like there are even more lousy live mixers than there are lousy recording engineers, and that's saying a lot!

That said, there's nothing better than a cool band putting on a well performed, great sounding show. Kudos to everyone who does it right.

Well since more than 15 years, a lot of technical rider have been requesting 105dBA at mixing console (stupid copy & paste) ... which is bad loud club mixing habit combined with over-stretched or alcohol diluted ego.

Since the introduction of true line array system from France, studio monitor quality (can be loud on request but HiFi) was offered to large audience.

Nowadays, mixing loud with meter bridge in the red (or VU meter needles bending ) is just plain desire to generate crap and being irresponsible to indulge audience hearing impairement.

It is surprising that there has not been yet a case where a sound engineer would have been arrested for mixing way too loud or way too bad ...

Bringing quality ear plugs to every concerts is being the standard ... sometimes surprised by a not so loud (you know, about 85dBA average), clean concert with respect of live music dynamics (a rarity).

Better productions and good sound quality for live or recording can still be appreciated by a very large audience!

[woomanmoomin]

It doesn't sound as if we've moved on very far from the times when a young Pete Townshend was complaining that playing your music horribly loud was the only way to get it heard.

[MixingStick]

Originally Posted by High Fidelity

Well since more than 15 years, a lot of technical rider have been requesting 105dBA at mixing console
It is surprising that there has not been yet a case where a sound engineer would have been arrested for mixing way too loud or way too bad ...

here in Salem Oregon, I believe 1997, Tesla was scheduled to play at a local outdoor amphitheater that enforced a 97dBA at the console They were warned twice during soundcheck. the first warning was $0, The second warning was $5000 the third warning would have been the arrest of the FOH engineer. Tesla said F.U. and packed up their gear and cancelled the show

The sound limit shortly thereafter went up to 103dBA then 105 dBA.

[woomanmoomin]

'A plutonium rock band generally held to be not only the loudest rock band in the Galaxy, but in fact the loudest noise of any kind at all.

Regular concertgoers judge that the best sound balance is usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles from the stage, while the musicians themselves play their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stays in orbit around the planet—or more frequently around a completely different planet.'

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, 'Disaster Area'

[Kiwiburger]

Intelligent people who value their ears should start lobbying their government to put a stop to this lunacy.

Music should be music - not fukking assult & battery with intent to to cause grevious bodily injury. Mad fukkas. Society needs to deal with madmen appropriately.

Music is NOT enjoyable with earplugs. Turn it the fukk down - and have some consideration for the poor sods with no earplugs who are close to the FOH speakers.

Any mix monkey who wears earplugs for his 'own protection' with no consideration for the public needs to be shot. Stupid bastards.

This should be a crime, with strong deterents.

As you were...

[zwaps]

By no means this is new.
On the contrary.

Earlier horn-loaded systems would **** up anybody close to it.


With todays Line Arrays you can aim precisely at parts of the audience, having multiple speakers only hitting areas further away so that you have a good diffusion.

It's better than before.

Plus most countries in europe have certain max levels.

[lpkyer]

queens of the stone age play way too ****ing loud.
mogwai reduced the level since 2 years which is greatly appreciated.

[woomanmoomin]

The more they reduce it, the more fans they will have.

[Antaren]

I went to a Toby Keith concert a couple of months ago (my sister dragged me) in a big sports arena, and I felt beat up by the volume of the bass drum. I had to leave and sit way up, as far as I could get from the speakers. It was ridiculous.

Antaren

[danranges]

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

I doubt there are that many musicians today who are louder than The Who or Deep Purple were, but I guess in some genres (anything metal, say) there could well be...

I believe Manowar broke The Who's long standing live sound record for volume and was the only band to do so until Lightning Bolt broke it again. I'm almost positive Lightning Bolt still has that record making for only 2 bands to "officially"m be louder than The Who.

[T_R_S]

There's nothing like the feeling of a Waves MaxxBCL straped on the 2 buss mixing in an arena.

[knightsy]

I saw Roger Waters a couple of months ago. It was proof positive to me that a show dosn't need a loud PA to stun the crowd into submission - it just needs good production across the board.

[FFTT]

No listing of the loudest bands in history would be complete with out mentioning BLUE CHEER.



Looks like they are touring too.

Upcoming Shows ( view all )
Apr 8 2007 8:00P
Great Scott Allston, Massachusetts
Apr 9 2007 8:00P
La Sala Rossa Montreal
Apr 10 2007 8:00P
Sneaky Dees Toronto
Apr 11 2007 8:00P
Casbah Hamilton, Ontario
Apr 12 2007 8:00P
Beachland Ballroom Cleveland, Ohio
Apr 13 2007 8:00P
Mac's Bar Lansing, Michigan
Apr 14 2007 8:00P
Schubas Tavern Chicago, Illinois
Apr 16 2007 8:00P
31st Street Pub Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Apr 17 2007 8:00P
Black Cat WASHINGTON, Washington DC
Apr 20 2007 8:00P
12th Roadburn Festival in Holland Tillburg

[dbbubba]

I have to tell you.... mixers make it loud BECAUSE THEY CAN.
I myslelf used to be guilty of running a band WAYYYY too loud.
I started being very aware of levels after I got away from mixing rock bands.
I won't name names, but I still see live engineers that are completely un-aware of what the proper sound level should be for a crowd or venue.

I'll also put blame on the band because quite often the band will pressure the FOH mixer to "make it loud."
I used to battle a certian vocalist about this constantly and once we were a label band with a REAL p.a. rider it only got worse!
It escalated to the point where I was shouting that "I was mixing bands when YOU were in junior highshool!" (remember S.I.R. in 1990 Terry?)
His response was, "Well, we'll pass out earplugs! MAKE IT LOUD!"

I'll also be honest... a LOT of live mixers are plain AWFULL!
I have seen guys walk in and mix on our Nexo rig and make it sound like total dogsh*t.
With a Midas and lot's of VERY GOOD outboard THAT IS QUITE A FEAT!

I have been to countless concerts where the mixer could not possibly have mixed musically at the level they were running the rig at.

I have even been to C&W shows with major artists where the kick drum was loud as F*CK!
It is like the KICK DRUM is more important than Toby Keith's voice!
(hmmmmmm...... maybe the FOH guy was hiding something?)
People come to see the star and hear him, but often we get to hear a tour drummer's kick drum a lot better than the star... it's always the kick, too!

I have been mixing live and in the studio professionally since 1974/75 and I'll tell you... THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO CAN'T MIX.

In live FOH (or monitors) guy's defense I will add this:
In a tour situation the emphasis can quickly turn into getting the rig up in a timely manner (FAST!) doing the show, striking the rig and getting BACK ON THE BUS TO SLEEP (a little maybe.) It is VERY easy to quit striving for a great mix. Touring sucks and it is VERY hard! I equate it to climbing near the summit of Mt. Everest (no, I haven't done that!) Every moment you are out there (up there) slowly dying because of lask of neccesary life sustaining things. Stay exposed long enough and it'll kill you! We've all seen it!

I purposely never did a multi-city tour and had to deal with the system set up.
I traveled with the band and made sure that the p.a. rider was adhered to or that the rig was ready to go for sound check. I was lucky, but I kept fresh that way. I wouldn't do it the other way... dealing with the whole rig AND mixing. Then again... most touring mixers don't have to do anything except oversee the quality of the rig AND MIX. The system tech keeps it working correctly and sees that it is set up each day.
Then again, in shitty situations there were times that I was only concerned with making the show happen and then moving on.

I presently handle a tour event (not a music act) for 20 weekends per half year.
I get on an airplane every weekend and go to a different city and venue every Friday and come home on Monday morning.
We are on our first weekend off in ten weeks this wekend (Easter.)
I am tired and it is hard to keep the show level constantly high.
THAT'S WHAT SEPERATES THE PRO FROM THE WANNA-DO-ITS!

The rig ALWAYS sounds good on my watch.
(I've had a few off days over the years though.)

[woomanmoomin]

All too often, they turn the music up loud to disguise the fact that it's cr@p. Not always, but too often.

[dbbubba]

It's a often a pissing contest for sure!

Hey, I did a ZROCK radio broadcast and mixed Man-O-War in a remote truck back in 1989 or '90...
Wow! Talk about a band that was TOO loud for their own good!
I joked at the time and said that even their drums fed back.
It was EXTREMELY un-musical and they played some absolute crap music (sorry all yopu Man-O-War luvers.)
I recall that the bass player had FOUR Peterson rack mount strobe tuners in his rack (that's a lot of bux right there.)
Each tuner was set for a string on his bass.
You see... he didn't have to turn any knobs to tune... he could just look at that baddass rack with the strobo tuner wheels turning!
As if tuning mattered for them!

Another STOOOPIDLY loud band?
Nitro
... but that guy had that baddass "X" shaped guitart with FOUR necks.
Their promo stuff said:
The HIGHEST, the FASTEST and the LOUDEST band!

Maybe so, but the Snowmen had a cooler look.

[overclock]

hey quietdrive -

i know a few of the regular FOH guys at irving, there are many though. which show and which date did u catch? don't worry, if it turns out to be someone i know, i won't tell them you hated it just curious what (or who) is getting this bad review.

in my experience as a spectator, loud is common and sounds bad, but i've got some molded earplugs with interchangable filters. they don't sound 100% transparent, but they are lightyears better than standard plugs. I have -9db filters for when I perform with a loud band, and -25db filters for when I go as an audience member. I think that in some cases you can get these fitted for in-ear monitoring as well. I had to go and get my ears filled with goo so they can make the custom plugs, and it cost maybe 100 dollars. But compared to wearing nasty disposable construction plugs or going deaf, it was worth it.

- b

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I recall that the bass player had FOUR Peterson rack mount strobe tuners in his rack (that's a lot of bux right there.)
Each tuner was set for a string on his bass.
You see... he didn't have to turn any knobs to tune... he could just look at that baddass rack with the strobo tuner wheels turning!
As if tuning mattered for them!

Guys like the Nuge used to have six Peterson Strobe tuners set up the same way; speaking of guys who were too loud. I remember back in the day he used those Super Twin Reverbs. Ugh.

Ted's so cool.

[TREMORS]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Ted's so cool.

Except when he makes comments about he's playing a Gibson and not some
-direct quote- "jap" guitar and turning his show into some sort of GOP-fest.
Yeah, that's just Ted, I know.

I just wanted the guy to play Stranglehold, is that too much to ask?

Anyway, on a side note...
I saw Santana last fall and i was angled to the right side of the stage, and the snare would just POP at certain moments (like the end of a tune where everyone is playing together) and truly hurt my right ear..and some of Carlos' high notes, were just PIERCING.
I was maybe 20 feet from the stage and the speakers, and I didnt wear plugz.
Is it previous damage to my ear from listening to WAY too loud music as a teen?
The person I was with said they didnt feel any discomfort, and they are 25 years older than I am.
It was an outdoor venue, though...So, I understand trying to project to the lawn seats.
Should I get my hearing checked???
I dont have any ringing our loudness problems, only that specific case.


-D

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by overclock

hey quietdrive -

i know a few of the regular FOH guys at irving, there are many though. which show and which date did u catch? don't worry, if it turns out to be someone i know, i won't tell them you hated it just curious what (or who) is getting this bad review.

butch walker, last tuesday.

[liquidorange]

Originally Posted by TREMORS

I just wanted the guy to play Stranglehold, is that too much to ask?




-D

what do you think ted is some kinda of juke box for your enjoyment. if one cant take the heat then i would stay home and listen to the album and leave the whining at home . he is passionate about his lifestyle and views. there are no hidden sides with ted. you know where he stands thats for sure. i admire that much.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Intelligent people who value their ears should start lobbying their government to put a stop to this lunacy.

Music should be music - not fukking assult & battery with intent to to cause grevious bodily injury. Mad fukkas. Society needs to deal with madmen appropriately.

Music is NOT enjoyable with earplugs. Turn it the fukk down - and have some consideration for the poor sods with no earplugs who are close to the FOH speakers.

Any mix monkey who wears earplugs for his 'own protection' with no consideration for the public needs to be shot. Stupid bastards.

This should be a crime, with strong deterents.

As you were...

Do you need a shoulder to cry on, my brother?

[TREMORS]

Originally Posted by liquidorange

what do you think ted is some kinda of juke box for your enjoyment. if one cant take the heat then i would stay home and listen to the album and leave the whining at home . he is passionate about his lifestyle and views. there are no hidden sides with ted. you know where he stands thats for sure. i admire that much.

Well, I understand your point.
And, I admire ANYONE that has strong convictions, even though I may disagree with them.
There is something admirable believing what you want, common sense be damned.
It was just a joke.
I find hunting to be despicable, but can understand Ted's points about it.

I'm entitled to my view just as he is, arent i?

And, he opened for ZZTop, so that wasnt really the "heat" I was paying to take.
I'm sure some japanese like his music, too.
In fact, I saw Asians in the audience.
I probably should have asked them how the felt that guitars made in indonesia, korea, china, taiwan, mexico etc feel about being them all being labeled "jap"
My bad.
It isnt WW2 anymore, anyone notice that?

-D

PS-as far as no hidden "sides" i find that comment he made to be completely about choosing sides.

[woomanmoomin]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

Do you need a shoulder to cry on, my brother?

Perhaps you'd like some sweeties, little boy!? Or to come back to my house and look at my puppies?!

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

Perhaps you'd like some sweeties, little boy!? Or to come back to my house and look at my puppies?!

Sure sweetie-How about a chocolate bunny since it is easter and all.
The we can go kill some live sound guys with your buddy.