recording in a bar/club setting

[jmch783]

hello,

my coverband has been playing for over a year in the boston/ north shore area and we're at the point where we'd really like to start recording full shows. here's the specs on our PA

mackie 1604 vlz pro mixer

mackie swa1801z subwoofer

2 mackie srm 450 speakers

lexicon mx200 effects

bass runs direct into PA and is pinched through PA
kick drum is miked, snare drum is miked, overhead mike is pinched through
guitar runs stereo direct into board through line 6 POD
samples also run directly through ipod into board
keyboard is direct into board too
vocals + backup vocals and that's it

really unfamiliar with the best possible way to record live

any suggestions would be very helpful

[CommunityMart]

Well the Mackie 1604 has 16 inserts you can use as direct outs and if your arent using all the AUX'es, you could route them to your recording gear.

Monitors:
Two singers on AUX 1 || Two singers on AUX 2
instead of "to each his/her own"
and out AUX 3/4, left and right overheads (drums). If possible, that would be neat.

A room mic would be great! You will be able to search for "distant miking" or "room mic" or something of that sort.

Good luck! and prepare.

[jmch783]

hmmm yea i guess my real question is, what should i actually record to?

thanks!

[rufus13]

The next question is: How much bread do you want to spend and who will run the recorder and do the editing?

Entry level is near-zero money: Tascam 4track cassette as found in someones closet, and cabling. PA operator can set levels and push record.

If 16 directs need to be recorded, Modular Digital Multitrack with 24 tracks and built-in converters hits the next sweet spot at between $2K and $12K.

I've seen Alesis HD24XR for $1200 as a local used item. Prepare to spend on cabling and extra trays/disks as well. MDM's go up from here.

PT in the low-end (LE) 002R-hardware package seems to be grief-filled when stretched out to 18 i/o, and overall (including tower or laptop) not less expensive than an MDM. You don't need Plugz to make a recording, so you don't need ProToolz. PT HD is another bird, but you don't need plugs to make a recording.

Analog 2"? Uhh, no.

Best solution: Hire someone who can do it, and owns the gear.

Good luck.

Karl

[Stevil]

i picked up a used fostex vf16 for a couple hundred for this purpose.
take the recordings home & dump em to the computer over adat light pipe for mixing ect. 8 line ins on the device & ada8000 will give you 8 more cheap pre's.

theres dozens of similar hard disk recorders you could pick up with the same functionality.

[AllThingsAudio]

PM sent.

[mrufino1]

I have the fostex vf160, newer model of the vf16, for exactly the purpose you just described. A behringer ada8000 will give you 8 adat inputs to go with the 8 analog on vf160/16, and you can record 16 tracks at once. You can come out of the inserts of the mackie (using either trs cables modified to not break the insert point), or use the 8 direct outs on the mackie plus the inserts for 9-16. That is an easy way to do it. You can also get splitters and split all of your cables before the board, which is what I do, but it was a bit of an investment. The system works well though. Also, rather than dumping in via lightpipe to the computer, I bought an external scsi jaz drive and a few 2 gb disks and I export the wav files, then drop them right into protools. That works really well. This setup, while not high end or state of the art, can give you really decent live recordings of your sets, is easy to set up, and doesn't interfere with the playing because it is easy to use. The vf160 and its family can be had for between $250-400 on ebay (I paid $300), ada8000 is about $200, jaz drive can be had very cheap on ebay, just make sure it is the 2gb jaz drive so you won't have to swap disks as often. Hope that helped a little.

[mrufino1]

Oh, my mind just triggered something else, maybe it is an option- if you get the onyx mixer that is the equivalent of your 1604 (1680 I think it is? There is a 1620 that doesn't have 16 xlr's, the 1680 (?) does) and one of you has a laptop, it can stream all 16 channels in via firewire with the optional card without interfering with your mixing of the gig. It is not the cheapest solution, and I've never used, seen , or heard it, but have read about it and it seems like it would be easy, as long as your laptop is stable.

[bishopthomas]

It's the 1640. It's decent enough and designed for this purpose. I had one for a while and decided I didn't need the features that a mixer offered and went with a more compact setup. For a band wanting to record their live performances (and they're providing their own PA) it's a great setup.

[Jim vanBergen]

By far the biggest issue in my mind, is how can a member of the band be responsible for the multitrack recording or 2-track mix? You really need a third party to do this, who care about the band and the music, who is not playing with the band, and who understands recording, to work with you if you want something that can represent what you're doing in a live venue.

[SarasotaSlim]

I've been using the inserts on my Mackies as pre-fade direct outs at the 1-click spot. We close mic EVERYTHING, which means every tom and an extra condenser mic placed down near the snares that also grabs all the cymbals. I finally moved up from the old ADATs to the entry level Alesis HD24 and after a few errors have started getting good results. The HD24 or any other hard drive type unit will stop working if you have enough heavy low end in the room like 5 string bass or synth bass. I finally broke down and had a foam lined iso-rack made for it and so far have not had any more stopping problems. Mixing is done the next day at the house with old school methods of putting it all back into another Mackie board and mixing manually to stereo. I'm using Peak LE5.2 and a new MacPro for mastering, and here are various live gigs to judge the results.
http://www.sarasotaslim.com/music.html

[mrufino1]

Sarasota Slim, nice job on those recordings, they sound really good. You may want to look at making cables to go in the inserts though so you don't have to do the "1st click" method- that can be risky...I also have an insert patch bay that lets you plug int he balanced cables and doesn't break the circuit unless you specifically intend to.

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by mrufino1

Sarasota Slim, nice job on those recordings, they sound really good. You may want to look at making cables to go in the inserts though so you don't have to do the "1st click" method- that can be risky...I also have an insert patch bay that lets you plug int he balanced cables and doesn't break the circuit unless you specifically intend to.

Thanks for the listen. Yes I'm interested in the cable you describe and have heard of them before. When fully inserted - do they interupt the signal? I'm using the main PA board live and need my signal for the FOH mix. Before we start I try to get a quick max level on each channel and then during the first few songs I look for where the peak-hold LEDs are to see if anything went over. The beauty of the new Alesis HD24 is that unlike the old ADATs which were only -10db input - the HD24 is +4 input so the inserts on a board can go direct to the HD24 inputs without the need for compressor/limiters that ruin the mix. It's also an all in one unit with 24 ins and outs unlike most of the computer type units that are cumbersome in a live setting and lacking in actual physical inputs. You can't get a good live mix without close micing EVERYTHING and a few extras for good measure.

[bishopthomas]

The cable he mentioned will not interrupt the signal flow. The end that goes into the mixer's inserts is TRS, with the tip and ring shorted together. The other end of the cable uses a TS connector.

[SarasotaSlim]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

The cable he mentioned will not interrupt the signal flow. The end that goes into the mixer's inserts is TRS, with the tip and ring shorted together. The other end of the cable uses a TS connector.

This is good news - thanks. Is there a link to someone's storebought version of this or maybe a schematic so I could make one and see for myself how it works?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mrufino1

...I also have an insert patch bay that lets you plug int he balanced cables and doesn't break the circuit unless you specifically intend to.

...Which is called a half normal bay.

A full normal bay ( as many may know) would break at both the top and bottom patch bay points.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim

This is good news - thanks. Is there a link to someone's storebought version of this or maybe a schematic so I could make one and see for myself how it works?

I will make you one if you want a "store bought" cable/snake. I am in the process of doing it myself, so what's a couple more hours with a soldering iron in hand? But it's not that hard and you can save on labor costs if you do it yourself. I have never seen an off-the-shelf cable since it's very much a specialty item.

Here's what you do:
On one end of a 2 conductor, shielded cable - Solder one conductor (we'll say it's black) to the ring post of a TRS connector. Then solder the other one (hypothetically white) to the tip post. Now what I do is bend the two posts so that they're touching then solder them together. Now solder the shield to the appropriate spot.

On the other end of the cable is your TS connector. This is easy. Solder the two conductors of your cable (black and white) together then solder them to the tip post. Then the shield... And you're ready to rock.

[mrufino1]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

...Which is called a half normal bay.

A full normal bay ( as many may know) would break at both the top and bottom patch bay points.

Thanks! I can't ever understand those terms, so any chance of a little more info-
Specifically, on my insert patch bay (half normaled as I now know!!), which I have yet to use, that means that with no cable coming out, circuit is not broken. Then if I take an out from the patch bay to my recorder, the patch is still not broken as far as the mixer, right? Only if I were to send and return? Or do I have this wrong? Maybe I should just try it... Thanks a lot. One of these days I'd like to meet you Steve- I only live a few miles away in NJ.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by mrufino1

One of these days I'd like to meet you Steve- I only live a few miles away in NJ.

April 23 at Luger's in NYC. You can meet a lot of us there, too.

[Jim vanBergen]

yeah man- April 23rd. be there or be...

hungry & lonely?

Seriously, you can PM Remoteness and RSVP. I bet there is still room.

JvB