Feedback eliminator for live rig

[moinho]

For my live rig generation 2, I'm looking for some kind of automated feedback eliminator.

Here are the requirements:
* rack-mount, max 9.5''/1HU
* microphone input incl. PP
* automated

Here are the non-requirements:
* extremely high audio quality

I've stumbled accros the Sabine SM-820 - any alternatives there?

Rainer

[88fingerz]

I'm on year 2 of using the DBX AFS 224 and I haven't suffered feedback since!

And affordable as well!!!thumbsup

[PoorGlory]

Automatic feedback eliminators and "high quality audio" will never coexist. They take too wide and too deep of a cut, totally destroy the clarity of the material, and are designed for permanent installations where non-technical people will be using the system.

Learn to tune the system to the room by ear. Get a good 1/3 octave graphic EQ (Klark Teknik, Ashly) and go to town. Don't even think about using SmaartLive until you've gotten good enough with your own ears.

[username]

errg.. feedback "eliminators" terrible terrible things.. I can only suggest that you don't get any one them..

[tINY]

Actually, a 5 band parametric EQ is the best thing to use if you have time and you know what you are doing.

The FBX stuff isn't horrible if you are using a 2-way system with a horn and a 15". It does affect the quality, but not as much as the compromises made in most 2-way full range PA boxes. And, it's easy.

Have you looked into hypercard mics?



-tINY

[edyer]

I use them on monitors. Only after we have rung out the system and when noone is sitting at the board to catch the runaway feedback. They can cut some pretty big holes though. The cheapo behringers work fine.

[moinho]

Thanks for all the replies; please let me clarify further what I'm looking for.

First of all, this is a solo live rig for some experimental underground stuff (read: low budget), so there won't be neither a high-quality EQ in the FOH system nor a soundguy who knows how to use it.

My setup consists of a laptop w/interface, MIDI keys, guitar, MMI components and a headset mic (beyerdynamic TG X35). For monitoring, I tend to use earplugs. Note that during performance, I tend to move around quite a bit onstage.

The vocal channel will be processed heavily most of the time, which means that here again the feedback conditions keep changing, so a fixed setting most probably won't work anyway. On the other hand, I do see a necessity to have a high-quality processing of the vocal channel - I can live with changing frequency dips here (which I couldn't on the FOH signal in its entirety).

From a package form factor, it's 9.5'' 1HU max, so this rules out both the DBX and the Behringer components mentioned.

Now - any ideas?

[edyer]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

I totally agree. There is no substitute for your own ears and why would you run a live gig and not have someone trained running the board at all times? It sounds like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want good sound, but want it to be easy. Not going to happen. There is no miracle piece of gear that will do this.

A feedback eliminator is just a cheap trick and an easy out for someone not concerned about the quality of the sound. Ring the system out wherever you set up and learn the room you will be working in. Understand acoustics and its effects on sound. Do a pre-show walk to see where the problems will be and how you will need to set-up and compensate. Take notes.

Bottom line: Running live sound professionally is not easy. It takes work, education and experience, not some miracle cure gear.

Doc

OK so every band that does their own sound is foolish? stupid? less than worthy?
I don't get that at all. You may be in a position to have a "professional" sound guy on the board but many bands are not in that position. You can set up a system and have it sound fine without joe golden ears sitting on the board. It's been done forever. A feedback eliminator is a safety net, not a sound man. Don't fear them if that is a workable solution for you. They do perform a function and they do work.

[PoorGlory]

Shure used to make a 1/2 space unit that totally sucked, but I'm pretty sure it's discontinued.

My recommendation is to afford yourself more rack real estate. 2 more spaces would get you room for the DBX unit, and a DBX 31 band mono graphic eq. Hook your feedback eliminator up after the EQ, and notch out potential feedback on the graphic with the feedback eliminator on bypass. Once you got it pretty stable and sounding good with the graph, enable the eliminator. That way you're not relying on that POS to sculpt your vocal EQ curve completely, just as a safety net.

[Jonkan]

Are you having feedback problems now, or why do u feel you need a feedback eliminator?

If so: In what frequency range? Is it high up, or more in the middle registers?

Perhaps you need to eq your headset better, back of the compressor a bit, or turn down the system gain before you think about bandaids like feedback eliminators.

If you use in-ear monitors, and still have feedback problems with the pa system. That is if you cant get enough gain out of it, you probably have some other problem or thing that you are doing wrong.

And yeah: Get a 31 band eq and learn how to ring out a system if you absolutely need the few extra dB of gain before feedback. But from experience i can say that unless you have your Pa behind you or something stupid like that, you will mostly have feedback problems with monitors, and not the actual Pa.

/J

[PoorGlory]

Also, don't forget that the number one cause of feedback is poor gain structure. Poor gain structure leads to non-optimal mixing methods, leads to weak sounding audio, leads to feedback as you increase the volume due to the weak sound.

Structure your gain correctly, give the channel enough signal to work with, and give the master fader a good, healthy mix. If you find your master fader is down around -20 or less all the time, back off the attenuation on the amps. Having your amps up full and your console receiving and sending a weak and consequently noisy signal is the initial cause of poor PA sound in general.

[aussie_techie]

keep decent gain structure, mic technique and learn to tune your system and you will soon realise that you dont need a 'feedback eliminator'. i used to think they were a good safety net but when a system is properly tuned with a 30band eq even a novice can run a system without problems.

remember to hold the mic properly, try not to go nuts with compressors. if your vocal is having to be compressed to much for FOH then split it to 2 channels so your monitor channel isnt compressed and you can use the desk eq for some minor adjustments.

a 3U GEQ might be a little bigger than you want but when a unit is so shallow its not big at all.

oh and stay clear of any beh eq they are horible. if you cant find a good cheepie grab a DBX 1231 series

[PoorGlory]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

oh and stay clear of any beh eq they are horible. if you cant find a good cheepie grab a DBX 1231 series

Truth. I'm no Behringer-hater, as I've owned a few of their things and never had any issues. However, I was on a weeklong corporate event recently and the only EQ that was available was a Behringer dual 1/3 octave, the one with the red-illuminated sliders. Totally awful. Almost unusable. Extremely poor filter design. I have a newer DOD (ugh...) 1/3 octave that I use only to solve a 1.25K and 200hz issue with my homemade/custom 3-way midfield monitors (I'm no loudspeaker design engineer, that's for sure). For $100 used on Ebay, the DOD totally smokes the Behringer... I would say its on par with the DBX graphics, which are definately useable.

[Brian Middleton]

Just caught this thread because I'm looking for a 31-band graphic for my rehearsal PA to replace a Behringer....I can confirm that the Behringer really does stink. Worst purchase I ever made. Aside from any issues about the filter quality, the thing is noisy as hell--to the point where the noise basically negates the value of the extra gain-before-feedback I get from using the EQ. (I.e., sure I can turn the output up louder with the EQ engaged, but since I'm adding a comparable amount of noise, real audibility doesn't improve much.)

I wish I could afford a Klark-Teknik or Ashly, but that's not gonna happen. Would the DBX 1231 be a substantial improvement over the Behringer?

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

Would the DBX 1231 be a substantial improvement over the Behringer?

yes they certainly are and the 2231 are nicer still if you have a bit more cash.

if you realy want the responce of a klark check out the square one EQs.