Where would YOU put the mics in Exeter cathedral?

[James Roper-Kum]

Hi everyone

Definite recording in this venue.

(The longest true gothic vault in the world!)




A few questions for you all.

1. What would be the most appropriate material to be played in space with such a long reverb time.
2. For that type of music......which mics?....what position?
3. For capturing Impulse Response........how?....what mics?......positioned where? (For IR Reverb plugins)

Looking forward to your comments

James

[VukOnCrack]

Originally Posted by James Roper-Kum

1. What would be the most appropriate material to be played in space with such a long reverb time.

Mine, of course!

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by James Roper-Kum

1. What would be the most appropriate material to be played in space with such a long reverb time.
2. For that type of music......which mics?....what position?
3. For capturing Impulse Response........how?....what mics?......positioned where?

Well. It all depends, doesn't it? Instead of being so vague, I'll try to answer as specifically as I can.

1. Organ music (best) choir with no soloists (ok, depends on the program material) or string group playing Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, etc - you get the idea.

2. Subcardioid or omni with focus- for example with Schoeps use capsules with HF rise, with DPA use proper HF nosecone. Placement depends entirely upon artists/program. For example, for an organ recording, you either go with a stsreo pair (X/Y, A/B, Blumlein, etc and choose your location based on walking the cathedral during a rehearsal of such piece, or you must mic each part or the organ which is a chore, and get the mics to a decent position to have good direct response and limited reflective response.

3. By impulse response do you mean direct field response? This is "close mic" and in a gothic cathedral, you may not WANT far field response as anything you put in the hall will have reflections.

I have done several projects in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in upper Manhattan (NYC) which is touted as "the largest gothic cathedral in the Eastern Hemishpere" and I don't have any idea WHY they use that, it's probably smaller than others, short and fat, etc. It's large, that I can promise you. Direct field works well in this space. Sorry I can't post recordings of these jobs, they were all done for live TV broadcast and I have no access to final tracks.

Does this help at all?


Jim

[VukOnCrack]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Well. It all depends, doesn't it? Instead of being a vague obnoxious ass, I'll try to answer as specifically as I can.

Um... a reference to my good natured post brought on by drooling over such a gorgeous space? If so: ouch.

[sonare]

While the location of the musicians won't reduce the reverb, knowing if they will be in the choir or nave will certainly be a factor.

Surely you know WHO might be involved?

Rich

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

Um... a reference to my good natured post brought on by drooling over such a gorgeous space? If so: ouch.

Vuk, my apologies! I thought everyone knew I was referring to MYSELF for saying "that depends", as I often read my replies and think I was being obtuse. Sorry bro, referring to you was NOT the intention. Change to original post to be made immediately, b/c I may be an obnoxious jerk, but I don't mean to drag anyone down with me. If I have an issue with what you say, I'll quote you. OK? Apologies to all, and for the hijack/wasted bandwidth to this thread!

[loujudson]

I've recorded in Grace Cathedral in San Francisco many times sime 1978. The first time was for a naturally harmonically tuned piano recorded in studio; we played the tapes back and recorded the cathedral reverb with 8 mics spread about the place, from front to back and top to bottom.

Another time it was a concert with an 8 member women's vocal group www.kitka.org who wandered all over the space while singing. I used a Royer stereo front and center, and various mics in corners and centered and in the far back. It sounded heavenly, but the group's management feels the performance was not adequate so nobody will ever get to hear any of the many lovely live recordings I've done of them. Too bad!

It all depends on what you want to get and how much ambience you want. Frankly I don't see any reason to record in a cahtderal if you don't want that lush ambience!

[VukOnCrack]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Vuk, my apologies! I thought everyone knew I was referring to MYSELF for saying "that depends", as I often read my replies and think I was being obtuse. Sorry bro, referring to you was NOT the intention. Change to original post to be made immediately, b/c I may be an obnoxious jerk, but I don't mean to drag anyone down with me. If I have an issue with what you say, I'll quote you. OK? Apologies to all, and for the hijack/wasted bandwidth to this thread!

No problem! Clearly, I may have been a little sensitive since I tend to be an obnoxious ass most of the time... but I hadn't thought this was one of those times! We're all cool, so it's cool, everything's cool, [insert other random "cool" remarks here]!

But, man, what a space! Not great for a lot of music, but for the right pieces, nothing will sound better.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

But, man, what a space! Not great for a lot of music, but for the right pieces, nothing will sound better.

The list is short-- choral and organ. NOT concert or brass or jazz band!! (No drums please)

Rich

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by sonare

The list is short-- choral and organ. NOT concert or brass or jazz band!! (No drums please)

Rich

Not so at all! One of the best shows I ever heard (this in Grace, not Exeter.) was an SFjazz fest with Zakhir Hussein and Charles Lloyd - sax and Indian drums. They started at opposite ends of the cathedral and walked around a lot before settling on the stage in front of the altar. Amazing sounds!

Grace has a7.2 RT60 - what does Exeeter have?

Lou

[sonare]

As a musician and music lover, I'll stand by my previous comment. Such music did not evolve in such a space, and for good reason. Wlaking about is certainly interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that it would be MUDDY, certainly from halfway downt the nave.

Choral or organ would simply sound more heavenly!

Rich

[loujudson]

You weren't there. I was in heaven!

And it was not muddy at all, reverberant and spacious and sparkly sweet!

Matter of taste, I guess.

Lou

[Jim vanBergen]

1. Brass quintet
2. Bagpipes!
3. Gregorian Chant (it's choral, but highly specific)

Just a few thoughts. I'd love to record many types of early music here.

Jim

[sonare]

The brass would sound fabulous (playing Gabrielli or similar)-- at least without a tuba!

Rich

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Does this help at all?
Jim

Very much so Jim.

Many thanks.

This potential project is leading me towards a greater understanding of sound, music, history, acoustics and the rest.

With regards to the impulse response....close response would be the one I think. I am enquiring because I want to make an IR to use in my convolution reverb plug-in.

Thought it would be a good opportunity to make one for you guys.

Peace

James

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by sonare

While the location of the musicians won't reduce the reverb, knowing if they will be in the choir or nave will certainly be a factor.

Surely you know WHO might be involved?

Rich

They will be in the Nave and yes I do know the players and they will be a school Orchestra.

Cheers

James

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by sonare

The list is short-- choral and organ. NOT concert or brass or jazz band!! (No drums please)

I spoke to a guide at Exeter Cathedral yesterday and mentioned that a recording was possible. I asked what kind of a variety of music he had heard in the space over the years and which in-fact made the most of the acoustic.

He said (now obviously) that Organ and Choir was the most common but that he had particularly enjoyed orchestral music that included Timpani.

He said that the sound or Timpani rolls made the building feel like it was shaking.
Sounds like an experience to me.

JK

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Grace has a7.2 RT60 - what does Exeeter have?

Lou

Ill have a go at working that one out as i don’t know if it was published on the web site.......did one of these at uni....still got the notes somewhere

JK

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Gregorian Chant (it's choral, but highly specific)

Just a few thoughts. I'd love to record many types of early music here.

Jim

Oh yeah!

James

[Jim vanBergen]

I'd say the posititve results will directly relate to the music chosen and the way the conductor/music director handles it. (Handels it? )

We all say "percussion BAD" because a snare drum beating quarter or eighth notes will totally BLOW in such a space. But tympani ROLLS will be excellent, as they are exciting the space and not developing a series of reflective impulses to confuse the listener's ear. Your mic placement will make the rest of the difference, how much of the long reflections annd RT you capture versus direct source wil have a major impact.
Does that make sense?

For example, if the material chosen is Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (not ideal for this space), those lovely, universal musica phrases: Ba Ba Ba BUM! That formatta should be held, to allow the room to quiet down. By the time the conductor waits for the gothic hall's immense size & decay to quiet down, you're about two measures behind. So it's more about what material is chosen and how its dealt with. Even the players will have a hard time if they don't follow the baton mercilessly. I'd suggest, if not insist, that the conductor bring an assistant who can rehearse the orchestra while he walks the space with you to see how listeners will hear the program from various seating areas, because it WILL make a difference. The conductor will also better understand the problems you face in miking & mixing such a project.

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I'd say the posititve results will directly relate to the music chosen and the way the conductor/music director handles it. (Handels it? )

We all say "percussion BAD" because a snare drum beating quarter or eighth notes will totally BLOW in such a space. But tympani ROLLS will be excellent, as they are exciting the space and not developing a series of reflective impulses to confuse the listener's ear. Your mic placement will make the rest of the difference, how much of the long reflections annd RT you capture versus direct source wil have a major impact.
Does that make sense?

For example, if the material chosen is Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (not ideal for this space), those lovely, universal musica phrases: Ba Ba Ba BUM! That formatta should be held, to allow the room to quiet down. By the time the conductor waits for the gothic hall's immense size & decay to quiet down, you're about two measures behind. So it's more about what material is chosen and how its dealt with. Even the players will have a hard time if they don't follow the baton mercilessly. I'd suggest, if not insist, that the conductor bring an assistant who can rehearse the orchestra while he walks the space with you to see how listeners will hear the program from various seating areas, because it WILL make a difference. The conductor will also better understand the problems you face in miking & mixing such a project.

That’s some cracking advice Jim, many thanks indeed

You make perfect sense!

The rehearsal idea is great and one that I will definitely suggested to the musical director.
Perhaps (if I can get access to the cathedral) a good idea would be to play some different music back over a P.A. to test them out before committing myself and the participants to anything?

Thanks again everyone

JK

[davebl@dircon.c]

I recorded there onces and used a M/S pair (cardiod/8) reasnobly close in the nave and also a rear M/S pair (omni/8) same way back. Some spots were used on the organ from what I recall but it was a while ago and cant remember the set up clearly.

I remember thinking at the time a spaced broad cardoid pair should have worked well in the space rather than an M/S set up.

I think Jims right on his observations.

Not that its of any help for this recording, there is a chapel, St Mary Magdelane I think its called, I visited once in Exeter that would be great for early music.

Please let us know how you get on.

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

I recorded there onces and used a M/S pair (cardiod/8) reasnobly close in the nave and also a rear M/S pair (omni/8) same way back. Some spots were used on the organ from what I recall but it was a while ago and cant remember the set up clearly.

I remember thinking at the time a spaced broad cardoid pair should have worked well in the space rather than an M/S set up.

I think Jims right on his observations.

Not that its of any help for this recording, there is a chapel, St Mary Magdelane I think its called, I visited once in Exeter that would be great for early music.

Please let us know how you get on.

Ahhh Yes!

What were the artefacts of the M/S set up that didn’t agree with you then?

Do you think it was the parallel walls and the side mics picking up the width of the nave (I presume) at too straight an angle?

I like the idea of making a recording at a smaller space too. As I mentioned earlier in the post, nothing is set in stone yet and all possibilities will be considered as I have a year to plan.

I should probably mention that the recording is for the 350th Year celebration of the School that I work for.

The Maynard School for Girls, Exeter, UK - Home I just re-did their website too.(Plug Plug Plug)

I have suggested that they let me make a professional recording of their excellent orchestra to put the celebration onto sonic record. The Cathedral has just been my first port of call as they will be performing a concert their as part of the celebration regardless of the recording.
I checked out the Cathedral web site and they have many interesting acoustic spaces.

There is a spot called the Minstrels gallery positioned high up and about two thirds of the way down the nave. Might be interesting?



James

[pkautzsch]

The Minstrels' Gallery is WAY up. Must be nice for some Gabrieli or Monteverdi "surround" choir music. I don't think it will be of use for any larger groups.
Well, I could imagine Mozart Requiem "Voca me" sopranos from up there, or St Matthew Passion's "coro in ripieno". Both will be VERY difficult to get together with the orchestra below though.

For smaller ensembles: Church of St Mary of Ottery (in Ottery St Mary) is located on a hill in a small town. VERY quiet except for some birds. It was designed to be a small version of Exeter Cathedral.
And it MUST be great for recording Coleridge songs ;)

[Plush]

As a clue to what music would work well at Exeter, I propose that you catalog and research the music that was done at its opening. These ceremonies would have been planned very thoroughly and carefully.

Since the cathedral was built over some centuries and finished in the 1400's, the music presented must have been pious and simple indeed! And that's your answer.

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Does this help at all?

Jim

Very much so. Thankyou

JK

[James Roper-Kum]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

I recorded there onces and used a M/S pair (cardiod/8) reasnobly close in the nave and also a rear M/S pair (omni/8) same way back. Some spots were used on the organ from what I recall but it was a while ago and cant remember the set up clearly.

I remember thinking at the time a spaced broad cardoid pair should have worked well in the space rather than an M/S set up.


Please let us know how you get on.

Thats great! Sorry for the delay in replying. Just waiting to see if its worth continueing the post. And it it. Its a definite gig. Yahoo!

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by Plush

As a clue to what music would work well at Exeter, I propose that you catalog and research the music that was done at its opening. These ceremonies would have been planned very thoroughly and carefully.

Since the cathedral was built over some centuries and finished in the 1400's, the music presented must have been pious and simple indeed! And that's your answer.

Plush-

This is the 3rd time I've read an answer you've given that was so dead on! Next time I'm in Chicago I'm buying you dinner.

Choral music is what those Cathedrals were built for. Starting in the Renaissance period composers began to use Polphony to great effect, beginning with Palestrina and continuing on through to the 20th century with Vaughan-Williams & Rutter. Palestrina actually wrote eight-section (not just parts, sections!) works that used the galleries to surround the listeners with voices. Huge pipe organs didn't begin showing up until the 18th century.