Reverb in at a bar GIG

[fuzzface777]

I know many engineers recommend that you never track using reverb from a guitarists amp-reverb or reverb pedal effects, since the reverb on an aux via sends will be much more lush on the DAW or console. I am sure for BIG acts, where the live soundman has a nice console this method would still be preferred.

I have heard from soundman that a guitarist should have a nice dry signal:

1) not too saturated
2) no VERB, but delay used in moderation if needed

I agree.

However, what if playing a tiny gig at a pub/bar and the PA is a joke. However the FEEL of the song had lots of reverb? What is the best route?
Can a pedal do a nice verb? Or is a nice Fender verb the only method?

[Sqye]

..

a friend was complaining when they went to see Paco DeLucia in SF recently
that he had WAYYYYYyyyyyy....... too much reverb on his guitar..

i guess he just likes it that way - maybe he doesn't realize how much there actually was,
maybe it was just not right for that room, or maybe it was just an accident?

sorry for the ot..

..

[Methlab]

I record with reveb on my guitar amps when i need it. It works but it really matters what sound you are going for. I like the Fender reverb sound way too much to substitute with software.

oh and for live, i would set my amp up just the same. I will never trust my tone with a soundguy at a small club..that's a huge mistake right there.

[dropblacksky]

As much as the soundman wants to be in control and make things easier for himself (I understand this mentality...it's a stressful job), it's more important that you use "your" sound on stage. There are a few reverb pedals that sound pretty good, namely the EH Holy Grail reverb. Cheaper than getting some spring tank, and more versatile as well. Great for live use.

[GearGeek]

The problem usualy is that if you have a nice level of reverb on stage, it's probably WAY to much for the FOH. Most pro players will use at least two cabs on stage. One wet and one dry. Then the FOH engineer can decide how much to blend in the mix. But I doubt that you will ever see that at a bar gig...

[Mount Cyanide]

The sound man can f himself.
If he's got any mix talent he can make the band sound good with THEIR sound.
Moderate delay. What the hell is that??? Never hoid of it.

[joeshambro]

i've done a lot of live sound. basically, my policy is this: if you play loud, i won't even bother micing you -- especially if that "loud" is a decent, well-practiced tone. i focus on the drums, vocals, and soft instruments in the mix, and make it blend well with the mix in the room from the loudness.

if it's a soft-playing band, then it's up to me to make something come from it.

[Sizzleboy]

I played a benifit gig a while back that required 8 bands to use the same guitar rig on stage. It was the rig of the host band. It consisted of a ADA MP1, an Alesis Quadraverb, and a Boogie 50/50. Before getting up, I asked the rig's owner if I could tweak his sounds, as I was familiar with the MP1 at the time. He said sure, but don't use the first bank (he only had three sounds). I walked up to the thing, bypassed the Quadraverb, and played the show. After we were done the guy runs up to me and asks what I did, as he's never heard his rig sound so good.

Just remember, most clubs have built in, albeit shitty reverb. Adding more doesn't make it any better.

[fuzzface777]

wow, so I if I want reverb for U2 or other 80's rock stuff (van halen etc) it would be better to use my own source reverb?

If yes, then is the perceived reverb from mic'd amp greater through the mains?
So if at I feel at home, the reverb on 5 nails a Neil Schon solo, then mic'd, I should put the verb at 3.5?

anyone?

[midigod]

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

wow, so I if I want reverb for U2 or other 80's rock stuff (van halen etc) it would be better to use my own source reverb?

If yes, then is the perceived reverb from mic'd amp greater through the mains?
So if at I feel at home, the reverb on 5 nails a Neil Schon solo, then mic'd, I should put the verb at 3.5?

anyone?

If you have a specific need for a certain reverb, you should never depend on the sound guy to do it, for two reasons: First, because you know what it should sound like and when to change it to another setting for another song, and two, because your reverb will sound vastly different from his. It doesn't matter that his is more "lush", though it probably isn't. In a bar, he's probably using an SPX90 or some crappy ART reverb. You may have a specific reverb you like, and you may be using spring reverb. He definitely won't have that.

Having said that, I'd like to ask guitar players in small clubs to cut all their effects in half, as they're usually just mud, designed to take up all the space that the bass and drums aren't. Perhaps some of them subconciously think it'll cover up their sloppy playing. I'm not sure.

We're really talking about two different things here - a guitarist who knows specific effects he wants, and a guitarist who piles a ton of garbage onto their signal and makes everyone's life hell. <b>Just because their sound is bad, doesn't mean they don't have the right to define their own sound.</b> If it sucks, it's up to the goof behind the board to have a chat with him about how best to get his musical point across.

-Craig

P.S. - I've mixed for the best and the worst for thirty years, and I can't remember a single time when I've added reverb to an electric guitar <i>in a club</i>, even if it was given to me totally dry.

[fuzzface777]

Craig, you never said much. I mean, you were close I think to a usable explanation for me but then stopped!

First, I can play and I know great tone regardless of the inst.

Anyway, lets follow your train of thought. In your experience, why hadn't you ever added reverb? You just gave the perfect illustration with what many live soundman tell rock guitarists -at least the non famous players. So why, do you live sound dudes never add the Verb for guitar solos or 80's mixed sounds?

Please don't tell that most rooms have the same effect or sound of reverb to imitate the cover.... I do agree every room is different, and depending on the crowd more or less natural room-verb.

[midigod]

Well, there are a few reasons. First, in the case of a cover band, I would almost never get a songlist. So I'd be trying to come up with effects cues on the fly, but there's no time to get snare reverb or guitar reverb, because you don't know what the song is until it starts. I'm pretty quick with the vocal effects, because I have a stable of about 20 setups that I can switch between quickly. But that just can't work with every instrument (because the instruments start the song - the vocals almost never do), so I need something that I can set-and-forget on guitar most of the time. Which is nothing, leading us to reason #2.

Reason #2: There's just so much going on in a club mix anyway, what with trying to keep vocals on top, that there's really no room for guitar effects or keyboard effects. It really sounds like a breath of fresh air when the guitar is clean and crystal clear. I don't dare mess that up.

Reason #3: About 40% of the time, the guitarist is so damn loud anyway that there's no guitar in the house.

Thing to think about #1: Most club sound guys I've known have only one or two reverbs - one for vocals, one for "everything else", which usually means snare. The guitar should not share those effects. On a carefully planned recording, maybe, but not in the cluster that is a club mix.

Thing to think about #2: If the sound guy has four or five reverbs, great.... but remember that he won't have time to be futzing with them all effectively unless he REALLY KNOWS your set. Which he won't. So if you see a ton of reverbs in the house rack, you're almost always in trouble. I've had up to seven in the rack, all being used... but ONLY on a tour, where I can program everything. NEVER EVER in a club with a fresh band.

Thing to think about #3: If there's just one reverb, you can feel better, because you can think perhaps he'll keep his mind on other things. But that's even more of a reason to NOT have the guitar in the "one size fits all" reverb.

I depend on the guitarist to get his sound. I've never had a guitarist say "my signal's dry, so you need to add reverb." If they did, I think I'd chuckle. IME, if the signal's dry, it's because the guitarist wants it that way. And if they never communicate with me one way or another, I find that I like the guitar to be clearer and dryer in a club.

Was I less obtuse, or not?

-Craig

[stuntbutt]

I have had a house gig for years and I don't think I've ever asked a guitarist for less verb or FX. How would I know how wet/dry the guitar should be? Now recording, FX and spring reverb are fine, but not any digital room simulating verb. We can achieve that with either a real room or my Reverb 4000.

[imnickb]

when i first started playing out the sound guy asked us before we ever turned on our gear to bypass any reverbs or delays that we might normally use and that he would add them in the mix.

i bought that for a while but then i decided thats a terrible idea.

what if your covering a u2 song? the sound guy has no idea, nor does he really care if you have the right verb or that your delay is in the right tempo.

or what if you want a spring reverb sound for a beach boys cover or something?

i think its up to the player to get the right sound he needs for each individual song, because the sound guy sure as hell isnt going to do it for you.

any special effects the player needs should definately be the players responsibility. as far as just having a little bit of reverb on guitar all night, id say that is something the sound guy should not have a problem handling.

[GearGeek]

Wow, he asked you to turn off your reverbs and delays? That's balls man. It's your job as the musician to give the best performance possible. That means using whatever effects needed to be inspired. It's the soundman's job to make it sound as good as possible.

If this sound guy was mixing a record, he would probably tell the artist to go back and re-track some instruments because they weren't up to his standard. Jeez, how do guys like this get gigs?

[JDunkley]

Originally Posted by Mount Cyanide

The sound man can f himself.

Even with the best tone in the world that attitude is gonna give you some crappy sounding shows.

I do FOH for a couple of bands and in their words I tell them what to do to get the best possible sound out front. They may not like all of it (like turning down at smaller shows) but as they say its what they pay me for. Granted if the band are worrying about reverbs and delays on guitars then its 2 less things for me to worry about but we work togeather to get it right. What works on stage may sound aweful out front and no matter how good an engineer you are you cant polish a turd! The biggest thing to overcome is usually getting the balance right between clean, crunch and lead channels on an amp in my experience.

Its a team effort between a good band and a good engineer.

To answer the first question. If its a crappy bar with a crappy PA. Dependant on genre put as little as possible through the system as possible. Vocals and Kick drum maybe. Get out front and listen to set the stage levels.

[midigod]

Originally Posted by stuntbutt

I have had a house gig for years and I don't think I've ever asked a guitarist for less verb or FX. How would I know how wet/dry the guitar should be? Now recording, FX and spring reverb are fine, but not any digital room simulating verb. We can achieve that with either a real room or my Reverb 4000.

I agree with that, and I don't want to give the impression that I'd ask them, after hearing their soundcheck, to change the way they sound. No way. I prefer to let them sound the way they want to sound, no matter what. The comment about copying specific effects is right on, too. That's part of the guitarist's job, not mine.

At the same time, sometimes they'll ask me during a break or at the end of the night what they can do to improve, what I thought of their sound, etc. At that time, or anytime there's a decent communication between us, I'll tell them that they could use more or less reverb and delay wash on the guitar. But when that communication happens, it's pretty much a given that I'll need to tell them that the guitar is not the only thing in the mix fighting for space.

Again, we're talking about two different animals here (generally). On one hand it's a player trying to achieve a specific set of effects for a certain reason, versus a player who leaves effects on all the time because that's their sound.

-Craig

[Mount Cyanide]

Originally Posted by JDunkley

Even with the best tone in the world that attitude is gonna give you some crappy sounding shows.

The soundman that dictates a dry signal deserves the fuuck
The art of the band (whether crap or not) to be faithfully translated over the PA
is the art of the soundman.
The fact that an engineer would sabotage the sound based on a stubborn guitarist not willing to compromise shows how little integrity or pride in his craft he has.
Bring back the 80's wall o' Marshall stacks and this needn't be an issue.

[JDunkley]

Originally Posted by Mount Cyanide

The soundman that dictates a dry signal deserves the fuuck
The art of the band (whether crap or not) to be faithfully translated over the PA
is the art of the soundman.
The fact that an engineer would sabotage the sound based on a stubborn guitarist not willing to compromise shows how little integrity or pride in his craft he has.

I believe you missed the main point of my post. I didnt mean to imply that the engineer is god simply that the engineer has a clue and might be worth listening to to achieve a compromise that will benefit the band. As stated the bands I work with trust my opinion and thats why they pay me. If an engineer insists on a dry signal then yes he maybe being lazy but if a musician cant be told then why go to the trouble of attempting the impossible. This isnt my attitude but Ive seen it done by others and more importantly Ive heard it.

An engineer is not the enemy of he musician beleive it or not but if you have several instruments fighting for space in the mix and a guitar player that insisted on muddying his tone with excessive effects. I see nothing wrong with trying to help them sound good. If the ego of the player cantt handle it then there you go. Its not the engineers that people are paying to see.

Originally Posted by Mount Cyanide

Bring back the 80's wall o' Marshall stacks and this needn't be an issue.

What a fantastic idea!!! a gig where the PA isnt loud enough to get the drums and vocals over the backline. Do you know how these gigs end? Usually with members of the audience telling the sound engineer hes shit when yet again he was victim to another guitarist who couldnt be helped!!

Sorry but the fuuck should be reserved for these musicians.

[Mount Cyanide]

I completely agree with the notion of volume containment.
Sound management is indeed the key duty of mix engineers.
(I was just watching VH1 Classic where even the bassists had Marshall stacks on their side of the stage, wtf???)
But effects should be 100% up to the player.
Is the FOH guy gonna tell Jimi to knock off the wah, Dick Dale to tone down the verb, Sonic Youth to moderate their delays???
Just because skinny ratty Billy in his trucker hat and size small shirt isn't yet famous, who's to say that his tone, taste and playing isn't as credible as the aforementioned.
Everyone's got a different palate and everyone's a master genius artiste in their own worlds.

[JDunkley]

Originally Posted by Mount Cyanide

I completely agree with the notion of volume containment.
Sound management is indeed the key duty of mix engineers.
(I was just watching VH1 Classic where even the bassists had Marshall stacks on their side of the stage, wtf???)
But effects should be 100% up to the player.
Is the FOH guy gonna tell Jimi to knock off the wah, Dick Dale to tone down the verb, Sonic Youth to moderate their delays???
Just because skinny ratty Billy in his trucker hat and size small shirt isn't yet famous, who's to say that his tone, taste and playing isn't as credible as the aforementioned.
Everyone's got a different palate and everyone's a master genius artiste in their own worlds.

Bearing in mind the gig in question is a small club gig then yes I do still think a wall of Marshalls is over kill.

Ok Ive never worked with the guys you named but I have toured with quite a few name acts and myself and the guitar players worked togeather to find the best tone and effects to make the shows sounds as good as possible. Its all been done as a team effort. I would never tell a player to change his setting for the fun of it. If it works it works. All Im saying is a decent front of house guy will work with a musician similar to how a producer would to get the best tone for the job.

I never said effects were bad just that an engineers input CAN be valid then it comes to getting a good sound.

[fuzzface777]

Dunkley and midiGod, thanks for your responses. I want to learn as much as I can, sincerely. THanks for your info!!

MidiGod, interesting to know about what most house boards are equipped with and the conventions -I never knew that or if I did once I forgot it.

So it is safe to say that if you want any reverb for an effect (for a solo) then the guitarist ( unless in Aerosmith or some other big act) should really supply it himself and not expect the soundman will have an extra verb, correct? Also, I think it is common sense to play at about 15-35 watts rms on most any pub's stage and mic'd through the pa for body/blend. Will the reverb ( from an effect pedal or amp) translate ok through most PA's?


Of course, there are 1000's are boner- guitarists who want ALL their regular dialled guitar tone ( 100hz to 10k) on the Heavy Hi-Gain amps fighting with the bassist and singer for air-space in the mix and they are stupid.
Is it safe to say that most guitarists in the ROCK genre should almost turn the BASS all the down ( esp true of Uber's and Fender Blackfaces) to retain the fullest body of low mids, mids and upper mids????? (retain harmonic thickness).

Obviously, too much reverb and or chains of effects KILL the guitar's pure signal etc... I think anyone playing awhile knows all about effect chains, boosts, how to apply effects ( less if more approach) etc. However, something I read that is a mytery to me still, how can the band sound great on onstage and suck out front?

[midigod]

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

So it is safe to say that if you want any reverb for an effect (for a solo) then the guitarist ( unless in Aerosmith or some other big act) should really supply it himself and not expect the soundman will have an extra verb, correct??

I think that would be a very safe and wise assumption. Even if you're in a big act, the house guy is often not trusted - I believe The Edge has used a guitar tech to do a bunch of his switching for quite a while. His stuff is so complex they don't want the house guy to do it. Something to think about.

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

Also, I think it is common sense to play at about 15-35 watts rms on most any pub's stage and mic'd through the pa for body/blend. Will the reverb ( from an effect pedal or amp) translate ok through most PA's?

Absolutely! Though the talent, or lack thereof, of the house guy will be the determining factor, not your reverb.

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

Is it safe to say that most guitarists in the ROCK genre should almost turn the BASS all the down ( esp true of Uber's and Fender Blackfaces) to retain the fullest body of low mids, mids and upper mids????? (retain harmonic thickness).

Depends. A lot of players set their amp flat on the floor, pointing at the back of their knees, with the mids and highs cranked because they're not listening on axis... So for them, no, they shouldn't turn down the lows. But if you're aiming it up at your head, then you might want thin it out just a bit, as low mids will tend to build up coming off the stage.

Originally Posted by fuzzface777

However, something I read that is a mytery to me still, how can the band sound great on onstage and suck out front?

Occasionally, the band may have good sounds, but just not gel together. But more often, the sound guy submarines the band by not being good at his job. It's frightening how few good ones there are out there. The key to being a good house engineer is NOT knowing how to operate all the latest equipment. That's just a crutch. They have to LISTEN, and KNOW what they're listening TO and FOR. And they have to know how to get the musicality of the band to translate.
thumbsup

[Methlab]

If there was a guy like Midigod in every bar and pub across the earth, playing those types of shows would be a lot more pleasurable. Good posts.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by midigod

. It's frightening how few good ones there are out there. The key to being a good house engineer is NOT knowing how to operate all the latest equipment. That's just a crutch. They have to LISTEN, and KNOW what they're listening TO and FOR. And they have to know how to get the musicality of the band to translate.
thumbsup

That's because it doesn't pay well and there's usually a primadona who doesn't understand how he could sound different in the house than on stage giving you grief.

The bar bands are on a mission to create fame and glory - There is not that draw for a FOH guy. Most bar gig's don't pay enough to give a FOH guy $200-300 for the night.

Sometimes you get more than you pay for, but don't count on it....



-tINY

[JDunkley]

Originally Posted by midigod

I think that would be a very safe and wise assumption. Even if you're in a big act, the house guy is often not trusted - I believe The Edge has used a guitar tech to do a bunch of his switching for quite a while. His stuff is so complex they don't want the house guy to do it. Something to think about.

This maybe true but a band like U2 wont use a house guy.They will have their own front of house engineer who has speced and hired the whole PA system most likely. U2s sound engineer will be trusted implicitly.

Originally Posted by midigod

A lot of players set their amp flat on the floor, pointing at the back of their knees, with the mids and highs cranked because they're not listening on axis...

This is a really good example of how a gig can sound good on stage and not out front. Once the band have a sound that works for them on stage it doesnt mean that once youve put a mic on it its still gonna sound good. This is why its important to get the monitors right and if you cant do that either tip back the amp or raise it up. This is exactly my point with delays and reverbs. Once youve turned the effect up enough for you to hear through an amp thats throwing at your feel and still needs to be turned up enough to be heard through the drums the mic thats an inch from the grill is going to hear something very different to what you are. To be honest if youve got a house tech whos going to take the time to ask you to make changes for the better of the gig youve probably also got a guy who might be able to get you a half decent monitor mix.