Celtic gig

[-momo-]

Howdy all - maybe this should go in the 'low end theory' forum, but thought I'd try here first.

I'm relatively new at field recording, and just signed on for my third gig that comes with some new challenges - wondering what advice you ol' pros could impart…

My previous remotes were strictly choral recordings. Nothing too challenging, although when choirs get loud, they get loud, so for the first gig I used outboard compression as clipping insurance - it worked well for that, but colored the result in a way I didn't like. For the second choir gig I decided to take advantage of 24 bit headroom and kept the gains to around -12db. This worked quite well and gave me lots of flexibility in post, but I also had the luxury of a low noise floor as the session was not in front of an audience.

This time, the event is a live Celtic concert with pipes, drums, lots and lots of fiddles, and a couple of choirs thrown in for good measure. This means a much higher noise floor and very loud instruments. I'm wondering if anyone has experience recording such instruments in a live environment, and if I absolutely have to go with compression "going in" again - I'd rather not as it means renting the equipment and I prefer to do as much as I can in post anyway…

FYI I'm using Cubase 3 with a Saffire Pro 26 and an ART DPS-II (ten channels total). I have a decent selection of LD and SD condensers. Any thoughts on the above, or anything else I should think of, would be appreciated...

[davebl@dircon.c]

Pipe bands phase like billy-o so avoid short gun mics. When I used to work for the BBC we used Coles 4038 figure of 8 mics for them in a stereo pair which helps.

[-momo-]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

Pipe bands phase like billy-o so avoid short gun mics. When I used to work for the BBC we used Coles 4038 figure of 8 mics for them in a stereo pair which helps.

Thanks davebl - in the absence of ribbon mics do you think a pair of large diaphragm condensers with one channel inverted would address that?

[-momo-]

Punt - still wondering about doing something like this w/o compression??

[d_fu]

What kind of mics have you got? What kind of hall is this in?

Originally Posted by -momo-

Thanks davebl - in the absence of ribbon mics do you think a pair of large diaphragm condensers with one channel inverted would address that?

You can't just invert phase on one of two ambient mics... No use.

[-momo-]

Originally Posted by d_fu

What kind of mics have you got? What kind of hall is this in?


You can't just invert phase on one of two ambient mics... No use.

Mics available:
2 x AT3035
4 x SM86
2 x KSM137
2 x NT-5
1 x NT-1000

10 channels of input available. DAW is rack mounted PC, E6600 Core-Duo running Cubase 3.

The hall is a contemporary church, @ 70 feet square, stepped stage in one corner, slightly vaulted ceiling, carpet floors, pews. I recorded there once before - I'd call it a quiet room with few reflections.

There's a grand piano I'd like to stereo mic (SM86s?), and might run another pair (KSM137s?) for audience, although that might be overkill. Would like to set the 3035s on a single boom, double-mic mount center stage, but should probably use two booms stage left and right to keep things out of the way. This should work fine for Choir element.

Was thinking of boom mounting the NT5s mid-stage L/R for pipes and drums, but that's just a guess at this point - would like opinions on how to best capture such cacophony with the mics I have.

Possibly place the NT1000 near the front for any solo work.

I will be attending a rehearsal next week which should give me a better idea of where everyone will be, so I'll know more then.

How to best deal with phasing and need for limiting/compressing going in are other concerns. As I said above, I'm hoping I can ride the gains to -12db or so to keep peaks at bay, but understand that will raise my noise floor.

[-momo-]

Punt

I've scrapped the NT-5 placement above as it was stupid.

Any input at all?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by -momo-

Mics available:
2 x AT3035, 4 x SM86, 2 x KSM137, 2 x NT-5, 1 x NT-1000

A decent pair of omnis would be nice. Can you borrow some? Else use the NT-5s as main mic (ORTF/NOS or so)
I would probably apporach this with an omni main pair and throw the rest around as spots, individually or in pairs, whereever applicable and needed..

Possibly place the NT1000 near the front for any solo work.

Sounds like a good idea.

I will be attending a rehearsal next week which should give me a better idea of where everyone will be, so I'll know more then.

Take some pictures, if you can, and post them. Easier to make suggestions when one can see what it's all about.

How to best deal with phasing and need for limiting/compressing going in are other concerns.

Forget that confusing comment about "phasing". It's not something you can deal with by reversing phase on mic inputs. With lots of pipes playing, you'll have a beat (as in "A variation in amplitude that results from the superpositioning of two or more waves of different frequencies. When sound waves are combined, the variation is heard as a pulsation in the sound."), not phasing in the strict sense. It's an acoustic phenomenon that's part of what you want to record.

As I said above, I'm hoping I can ride the gains to -12db or so to keep peaks at bay, but understand that will raise my noise floor.

No need to worry about noise floor, either, if you have half-decent converters. Audience/ambience noise will be far higher.

[-momo-]

Howdy - I haven't been ignoring this thread, I've been waiting for more info from the client before I came back... Here's an update if anyone is still interested... I really appreciate the help so far!

Mic selection has changed slightly, not necessarily for the better but at least I have more choice now:
2 x Audio Technica AT3035
2 x Apex 430s
4 x Sure SM86
4 x Sure KSM137
2 x Rode NT-5
1 x Rode NT-1000
1 x Rode NT1A

There is no sound reinforcement for this event, and I really don't see a need for the vocal mics (SM86) - although these are condensers, maybe good for micing piano and/or organ?

Here's a summary of performances and instruments expected:

Pipe bands (2): max 5 pipers and 3 drummers
Fiddlers (2): max 10 playing as a group
Choirs (6): max 20 people, variously accompanied w/ piano (Heintzman Grand - 5' harp), Organ (B3), violin, acoustic guitar, flute, tin whistle
Singing acts (5): solos and duets, variously accompanied w/ piano, acoustic guitar, violin, tin whistle
Jigs & Reels (2): Piano, violin, bodhran

Busy!

Originally Posted by d_fu

A decent pair of omnis would be nice. Can you borrow some? Else use the NT-5s as main mic (ORTF/NOS or so) - I would probably approach this with an omni main pair and throw the rest around as spots, individually or in pairs, wherever applicable and needed..

Not sure if I can source some omnis in time or not - will see... Thanks also for making me look up ORTF - was actually thinking of using the NT5s XY, but now maybe I should go with the LD condensers (either the ATs or the Apexs) using ORTF, as it's looking like the NT5s would be better used for spot instrument work instead - I'll research this more...

Originally Posted by d_fu

Take some pictures, if you can, and post them. Easier to make suggestions when one can see what it's all about.

It will be difficult to get pics of the performance space as it is a fair distance away, however if I can get some in the next week or so I will post some here.. until then, imagine a box roughly 70' square with a stepped stage in the upper left corner.

[Edit!] I found this link on the internet from the company that furnished the church:

http://www.allencia.com/homepages/cat_photos_1.html

...not the greatest pics but better than nothing, no shots of the stage but you can make out where it is. I'll see if I can do better:

Originally Posted by d_fu

Forget that confusing comment about "phasing"...No need to worry about noise floor, either, if you have half-decent converters. Audience/ambience noise will be far higher.

Done, and done. FWIW, Interface/Converter is Focusrite Saffire PRO 26 I/O, S/PDIF linked to an ART-DPSII.

All I want is decent levels and no clips - that's my biggest concern. The last time I did this, I used compression going-in (more for limiting than compression, I guess) but I didn't like what it to the result, so I hope I can gain-ride appropriately with lower levels. They've agreed to have a few acts come in a couple hours before the show for a sound check - I've asked for the loudest ones but I'll take what I can get.

Sorry for the long post... the gig is in three weeks so hopefully I can button everything up with a plan that takes the best advantage of the meagre gear I have...this is my most challenging gig yet, and I really appreciate any feedback I get.

Cheers!

[-momo-]

Punt

I know I'm mostly babbling here, but any input is appreciated...

cheers!

[-momo-]

Q: What's the difference between Bagpipes and a trampoline?
A: You should take your shoes off before jumping on a trampoline.



Session completed - mostly without a hitch. The recording went well, but a few of the performances were painful (nerves, I think), and it went on far too long.

In any event, I managed to score some omnis (Rode NT55s), so I went with a spaced omni pair up front, three spots for instrument work, and close-mic'd the piano with the AT3035s. This approach gave me good separation and lots of mixing flexibility (3 hours to wade though!) Overall the signals were very good, although gain management was a real pain using the channel knobs on the Saffpro and DPSII. Next time I'll bring another monitor and use the Saffpro's CP for that.

Thanks for your help d_fu! Much appreciated.

-mo

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by -momo-

Thanks davebl - in the absence of ribbon mics do you think a pair of large diaphragm condensers with one channel inverted would address that?

Yes but Fig 8 avoid any posibility of phasing.....

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by -momo-

Q: What's the difference between Bagpipes and a trampoline?
A: You should take your shoes off before jumping on a trampoline.



Session completed - mostly without a hitch. The recording went well, but a few of the performances were painful (nerves, I think), and it went on far too long.

In any event, I managed to score some omnis (Rode NT55s), so I went with a spaced omni pair up front, three spots for instrument work, and close-mic'd the piano with the AT3035s. This approach gave me good separation and lots of mixing flexibility (3 hours to wade though!) Overall the signals were very good, although gain management was a real pain using the channel knobs on the Saffpro and DPSII. Next time I'll bring another monitor and use the Saffpro's CP for that.

Thanks for your help d_fu! Much appreciated.

-mo

Kindly note the Great Highland Bagpipe is instrument of war not a musical instument. And that is a leagal definition so far as I am aware. They are a very beautiful instument non the less. I shall put you on the short list when reprisals are next due in the colonies.......

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

Yes but Fig 8 avoid any posibility of phasing.....

????

[davebl@dircon.c]

OK, What I meant was avoid any mic ala 416 types with phase cancelation tubes on them.

Fig 8's work well being a first order preasure gradeint mic. Short gun types are desperate as bagpipes have drones which cause alsorts of phaseing issues.

An omni would work well too but placement would be critical and also the pip band would hav eto be stationary, usuay they then to march about the place.

[LX3]

Hey there... you want a bizarre gig to record?

I recorded ten hours solid of solo bagpipe performance (probably 12 different performers). The tough bit was that each performance involved marching as well, so the performer would march up and down the width of the room while playing!

(pretty normal for these competitive events).

Plus there was a hard wood-panelled wall behind them, and I couldn't do anything to get rid of the horrible reflections off it.

You had to cover the width of the room with mics, otherwise the player would fade in and out the whole time as they marched twenty foot away from the central mics and then back again. Talk about phase problems!

After a while you did start to appreciate the artistry of these guys though. All played from memory.

(To begin with I couldn't tell the difference between them playing a song, and tuning up!)

Paul

[-momo-]

Originally Posted by LX3

To begin with I couldn't tell the difference between them playing a song, and tuning up!

What do you expect from a weapon?

Luckily for me, they marched on stage and stayed there. Although at one point near the end of their last song a drone "let go," which sent the acoustic equivalent of a hot spike into my left ear.

[-momo-]

Just thought I'd come back and put a cork in this thread - as of Monday the job is completely finished - the master is in the client's hand and the check is in mine. They are very happy with the result, so I am too.

This has been a great learning experience. Thanks to d_fu and davebl for their help in this thread - it helped a lot, as did the Remote forum in general as I picked up a lot of tips and tricks in other threads. This is a great resource and I'll certainly be back for more!

Thanks all.
Cheers
mo

[d_fu]

Are you allowed to post some clips?

[-momo-]

Well, the performances were pretty rough, at least compared to pretty much everything I've heard posted here... I'll see what I can do, though.