Ultimate system for recording classical??

[Simon Lomax]

Hello,

I've recently subscribed to gearslutz and have been interested by your suggestions for various mic and pre combinations.

I have a new project coming up to record a classical piano quartet (not my usual area) and was wondering what you guys would suggest as the ultimate setup mics and pres for this? As I have a budget to hire some gear in

Cheers

Simon

[natpub]

On classical/pure jazz stuff, I like GML for the pre, if you are talking ultimate.

For mics, Schoeps or B&K are usually the names I see. Not really my area, and last thing I did like that we used Earthworks mics, which turned out well.

cheers,

kt

[Yannick]

Either Blumlein or MS stereo.

Which one depends on the hall.
Take enough time to move the pair around until the balance between piano/strings is right (height/distance).
Then start moving the string players until their internal balance is right.

I wouldn't use additional mics, unless you need an ambient stereo mic (pointed away from the quartet - so no omnis ...)

This would mean either a Royer SF12 (blumlein) or 2x Sennheiser MKH80 or MKH800 multipatterns, one figure of eight and one on omni, wide cardioid or cardioid (whichever gives the best 'fullness' to the quartet).

Good preamps like Gracedesign 801.
Good AD convertors (Like the new Benchmarkmedia ADC1).

Don't forget highquality monitoring, including a good headphone (HD650) because location recordings tend to have very small, bad rooms where you'll monitor in.

When using a MS stereo technique make sure that both capsules are reached by every musician at the same time !!! Even 1 cm path difference can make a bow sound detach from the cello sound (eg the krrrrr comes from the left, the cello sound itself from the right). During post pro you can experiment moving 1 mic forward/backward 1 or 2 samples to correct a bit.

You could also use some famous omnis in an AB setup, but then you won't have the ULTIMATE system, you'll just end up with two quartets tutt

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING : take enough time to soundcheck. Anything between 30 min (in a great hall with very good musicians/instruments) and 2 hours (!) is normal.

Get a VERY good piano tuner, and if there is budget for it : let him stay for a while to retune (So many recordings start in tune, by the 4th movement the piano sounds like those uprights in a Western movie)

If you want to get into details : get the stand in such a way that there are no hard reflecting surfaces near the capsules that could reflect direct sound into the mics (it does make a difference).
Unless you have a granite stage : shock mount your mic stand - a lot more effective than shockmounting the mic.
You could also buy some $500/m mic cable, but hey, even I didn't bother to do THAT yet

[Nathanael]

There is some good advice here so far. For pre's I like the Millenia Media stuff a lot. It is also easy (and cheap) to find on rental. You can easily rent Schoeps and DPA - either will do a very nice job provided you get the mic position right.

Do make sure you've got high-end converters. Lavry blue line is nice, though for a one day gig you can probably rent in the gold series from Lavry or Prism....

If you've got a high budget for gear rental, hire in a Genex 9000 and record DSD and PCM simultaneously.

Really the gear is the easy part - you pretty much need the best, most transparent, most expensive stuff out there. The experience part is the mic pattern selection and placement.

Be sure to do a rec.audio.pro newsgroup search as this has been discussed before over there.

[edmann]

A lot of people like the Metric Halo stuff for classical recording, specifically for the conversion quality. Use external pre's if it is the 2882 (again with "classical" in mind - those pre's are apparently great for louder sources). The ULN-2 has great pre's. Check with MH first for an update on ADAT i/o functionality in the 2882 if you intend to use that feature.

http://www.mhlabs.com

[Simon Lomax]

Thanks for all your advice! I will definitely see what I can do with the gear you suggested and take the time to do plenty of sound checking on the day.

Simon

[Yannick]

Oh and yes, don't forget to tune the viola !

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally posted by Yannick
Oh and yes, don't forget to tune the viola

better have that done by the piano tuner too.

[Marshall Simmons]

hey now--- no viola jokes!

sincerely,
a sensitive violist

[smoothmoniker]

you should really check out Martech for the pre's

-sm

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Marshall Simmon
no viola jokes!

voilá! they're gone!

[fifthcircle]

Ultimate Classical rig?

The sky's the limit here... Realistically, though... I like Millennia and Grace preamps. The Hardy ones are also pretty awesome for classical work (especially the twin servo ones). Conversion, you can't go wrong with something like the Genex or Lavry blue series. If you have more $$, look at the prisms, Lavry gold, etc...

Mics: I have rather different views than many of the folks here. I like Schoeps, B&K, etc... Schoeps can, IMO, be too transparent. They can show you exactly how bad your performer or room may be. In a great room and great performer, they are hard to beat, but I've heard some horrid recordings where they've been used. I like the Sennheiser MKH condensers (20s, 40s, 800s). I also like using large diaphgragm mics, too like the Microtech M930s. Stereo mics are quite usefull for classical work as well. My favorite mic in my collection is my AKG 426 stereo mic (a large diaphragm stereo mic with 9 patterns for each capsule). It is quite versatile in a wide range of situations...

then there is the recording media/DAW. A masterlink can be a good 2 track recorder. These days, I'm taking a computer with a Lynx II card and the Sequoia DAW software on it out into the field. I know others that love their Genex recorders.

--Ben

[Marshall Simmons]

by the way

for large ensembles, 3 omni's in a decca array is the defacto standard. usually they are the neumann m50,m150's ect ect, but any omnis work well.

Smaller ensembles use cardiods (the emerson quartet for the shostakovich boxed set used a near coincident pair.)

Bilumens are awesome substitute for smaller ensembles if the room is excellent.

Schoeps, Dpa, and the upper end sennheisers are the standards, everything else is usually considered subpar by the greats (unless you are using the neumann decca array thing)

Millennnia is used by the big time classical guys, grace comes in second. Some of the other preamps (martech, earthworks,) i haven't heard.

Marshall

[MattiMattMatt]

Marshall

I agree that the Emerson is a great reference. I've recorded other quartets using a Soundfield which is easier to manage then the individual mics Da-Hong uses to record the Emerson, and my results with the Soundfield are better than what a lot of other engineers achieve with a bunch of little mics. However, Da-Hong's results (using DPAs and Schoeps with the Emerson) are better than mine using the Soundfield, in large part due to Da-Hong's superior engineering talents. The point I'm making is that if you're not as good as Da-Hong, you could do a lot worse than to use a Soundfield.

I know that the Emerson is also very careful to find a great space in which to record (makes a huge difference), and microphone placement (they spend a lot of time on this).

I also second your observation that Millennia Pres are the bread and butter of classical recording, along w/ mics from DPAs, Schoeps, and Neumans.

Placement wise, I'd add to your observation that I've seen a lot of spaced omnis used for smallish ensembles as well.

Best viola joke:

How do you get a violist to play spiccato?
Give him a whole note with "solo" written above it.



MattiMattMatt

[Marshall Simmons]

Shit---- i think i peed my pants reading that joke....... its a love/hate relationship with these viola jokes

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by Marshall Simmon
by the way

for large ensembles, 3 omni's in a decca array is the defacto standard. usually they are the neumann m50,m150's ect ect, but any omnis work well.

Smaller ensembles use cardiods (the emerson quartet for the shostakovich boxed set used a near coincident pair.)

In classical (like most other recording) the only standard is that there is no standard... For orchestral recording, a decca tree is a popular method (especially on the scoring stanges), but it is by no means a standard. Some folks like spaced omnis, others like a coincident pair plus flanks....

I love doing blumlien and Mid Side recordings.... Great techniques for certain types of rooms... I also find that modifying "standard" setups can produce great recordings as well... Sometimes crossed fig-8 (blumlein) is great, but sometimes I find that there is too much ambience so I will narrow the pattern down to a hyper cardiod (easy to do on the AKG 426 that I usually use). Similarly, for mid side, cardiod is good sometimes, hyper is good in other situations, and sometimes I'll use an omni (give you spaced omnis with better imaging).

For string quartets, I use a blumlein pair close in and low- I have yet to find a quartet that hasn't just LOVED the sound... Intimate, but spacious.

Classical recording is about working in a room and making the ensemble work in that room. I feel there are guidelines that should be followed, but no set rules- do what needs to happen to make a good recording and forget about if it is "technically correct."

--Ben

[edmann]

Greetings Benjamin et al, -

for the benefit of us who may be only marginally aware of the techniques that are described in this thread (blumlein, decca, etc) - would you please provide a bit of detail?

thanks very much

and best regards

Ed

[fifthcircle]

People write whole books on stereo microphone techniques... It is going to be hard to nail them in a post here. You may want to get a copy of Ron Streicher's "The New Stereo Soundbook" or perhaps Bruce Bartlett's "Stereo Microphone Techniques"

Basically, Blumlein is crossed figure-8 mics at 90 degrees. X-Y is cardiods crossed at 90 degrees with the capsules right over each other, ORTF is capsules 17 cm apart and at 110 degrees.

A decca tree is three omnis in a t-shaped configuration. Each arm of the "T" being 1 meter long. The traditional microphone for this is the Neumann M50. Its directional tendencies at higher frequencies help the imaging. Any omni will work, but omnis such as DPA's which are very "omni-directional" will be more difficult to get a good sound out of because of the lack of imaging.

Jecklin Disc is 2 omnis on either side of a baffle.

Mid Side is 2 mics at 90 degrees of each other. One faces straight forward (and technically can be any pattern) and the other must be a figure 8. You put it through a matrix and you derive a stereo signal from it...

That should get you started...

--Ben

[edmann]

thanks Ben!

[jajjguy]

No one has recommended omnis with Jecklin disc. Is this because you've tried and rejected it, or have not tried it? Just curious.

[fifthcircle]

A lot of folks are into this sound... Personally, I'm not a huge fan. Also, a good disc (with the requisite foam, etc...) is disruptive to sight lines on a concert.

--Ben

[Nathanael]

Originally posted by fifthcircle
A lot of folks are into this sound... Personally, I'm not a huge fan. Also, a good disc (with the requisite foam, etc...) is disruptive to sight lines on a concert.

--Ben

But once you get it right with a choir + organ, the results are wonderful. I'm very happy to have it in the "bag of tricks". Not for everything, but I do like the technique.

[fifthcircle]

I usually do 3 omnis (B&K 4006s) for most choirs. If there is an ensemble, that can become 3 MK21 Schoeps with an array in front of the ensemble.... I think the Schoeps MK21 capsules are just heavenly on choirs (and a lot of other things, too... They make a pretty mean decca tree, too)


--Ben

[Jburn34]

When you do 3 omni's for choirs, what configuration do you put them in?

Also, what are some recommended omin's or multipatterns...that don't completely break the bank?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[fifthcircle]

Originally posted by Jburn34
When you do 3 omni's for choirs, what configuration do you put them in?

3 stands dividing the choir in to 4 equal sections... Usually placed about 3 feet or so higher than the top riser aiming down towards the center of the choir. Depending on the situation, anywhere from 6 feet to 12 feet or so out... When I'm micing the choir when an orchestra is playing, I may only use 2 mics on the choir- and they may be closer because of the way that stages are usually set up. 2 mics is usually fine, though, because the front orchestral mics will get a pretty good choral pickup. The spots are more to make sure that the diction is good.

Also, what are some recommended omin's or multipatterns...that don't completely break the bank?

Thanks,
Jeremy

What is your definition of "doesn't completely break the bank?" I love the B&Ks... I've seen them go for as little as $1k/each in the used market. I've seen MKH-20's go for $600 in the used market. If you don't mind the higher noise floor, earthworks may be to your liking. KM183s (is that the 180 series omni?) aren't horribly expensive, either, but you'll find them considerably brighter...

--Ben

[GearGuy]

I did a gospel choir with a Royer SF12 and some spot mics and it was great. I've actually not had much luck with a SF12 otherwise, but haven't had much time to "try 'em" in these sorts of situations. Clock is always ticking.

I've always loved Grace mic pres, and they are great for classical situations. Earthworks mics and pre-amps should be something to seriously consider. They always get my vote.

[Bernd G]

There are lots of equipment suggestions here, so I thought I will share some the things I have learned from the many P-4tet recordings I have logged over the years.

Essentially you need, in order of importance (given good musicians):

(1) good, quiet hall. Turn off heating, AC, - bring lamps so you don't have to use the noisy overheads. Ask string players to bring wirestands to avoid reflections. Ask them to wear sneakers or similar and to xerox important pages so they don't need to turn pages so often.
(2) good 9ft grand piano. Make the pianist pick it out, so that they will not whine about it later in the session. Generally, nothing under a seven footer will do. Needs good tuner and the tuner needs to touch up after every session or whenever the thing goes out. Watch out for squeeky pedals and piano benches. Best to find a page turner, and use a carpet under the pianist's foot.
(3) good playback equipment for listening and a quiet talkback facility. Producer's microphone, preferably with an ON/OFF function. The musicians WILL want to hear their playing!
(4) some well-known Piano Quartet CDs. Play them on your reference system at home and then in your make-shift control room to find out where you are.
(5) UPS and BALANCED POWER SUPPLY, to compensate for the shitty power in most concert hall/church venues.
(6) some recording equipment.

Now, getting the balance right is not trivial. The piano generally will tend to sound too far back. Asides from the acoustical conditions this often has to do with the "lead-foot" syndrome that many pianists employ when feeling uneasy in a recording situation. More pedal will tend to make the piano sound even further away from the rest of the ensemble. Also, psychology, as you know, has a lot to do with the balance. Unless the musicians have recorded in the same place before it will take some time before they balance themselves correctly. Do not freak out if things are off at the first take. In general, multitracking will give you more options later, but will also create many more hours of work. If you get paid for them, good for you.

I suggest the following setup: 8 channel multitrack.

A spot mic for each musicians. This is to cover your inexperience if balances are off after the session and because you could not hear well in the whole nightmare of setting up, shitty control room and generally dealing with "stuff."
One near-coincident stereo pair for the entire ensemble, or a Decca Tree, or a Spaced Omni Pair as a main array.
One pair of room mics - preferably omnis. This will depend on the noise conditions in the hall (traffic etc.)
Most likely the musicians will not believe you when you tell them that you will "fix the balance in the mix." Better to get it to sound right as a mix right away and to print it to a HRES alternate backup system.

OK, it is getting late - good luck.

[Jburn34]

These are great posts!

[ISedlacek]

Originally posted by fifthcircle
I usually do 3 omnis (B&K 4006s) for most choirs. If there is an ensemble, that can become 3 MK21 Schoeps with an array in front of the ensemble.... I think the Schoeps MK21 capsules are just heavenly on choirs (and a lot of other things, too... They make a pretty mean decca tree, too)


--Ben

Ben,

I have a pair of Schoeps MK21 and a pair of MK2. Do you think it would be possible to combine these in a kind of decca tree too ? LIke MK2 on sides and MK21 in the middle ? Or some other way ?
What about MK21 in ORTF and MK2 on sides further away ? Asking for some phase problems ?
How would you use just a pair of MK21 for a choir - ORTF or rather AB ?
Thanks. I am going to record a choir day after tommorow and I have never done it before (just to try - I am basically not doing such things, I normally recording my own music only, but I am interested in this sound alchemy very much ..)

[mr.gefell]

ISedlacek,

since it's your first time.
try running the mk21's NOS, 30 cm spread and 90 degrees angle.that worked for me when i ran schoeps mk21.

if the room accoustics are not good,run them xy 90 degrees or less.