Ultimate system for recording classical??

[Nathanael]

Ted,

Rent a Schoeps or DPA pressue capsule + amp. For Schoeps, this is the MK-2 family and for DPA, the 4006/4003. It'll only cost you $35 a day or something like that at Dreamhire. It's wild how good the LF response is - makes for stunning organ recordings!

I had a Lawson, with the same kind of dual diaphram. You may decide to go omni shopping after you hear the difference!

[ISedlacek]

Originally posted by Nathanael
Ted,

Rent a Schoeps or DPA pressue capsule + amp. For Schoeps, this is the MK-2 family and for DPA, the 4006/4003.

I would LOVE to hear a side by side comparison between these two ... I myself have MK2 ...
I just hear occassional comments like "DPA are more accurate , Schoeps are more "musical" etc. But I never had an opportunity to try DPA myself
Has anyone tried to compare directly these two foremost representants of classical music mics ?

[mr.gefell]

if you come by to oslo norway,you could try out my josephson c606b/mk202 mic

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Yannick
Of course listening is a must. It helps being a (classical) musician by education. The big problem for me is fitting this real source between just two speakers. IMHO that's maybe the main reason for NOT using "transparant" gear : compensation - to make it bigger than life, because there is no way to make it as big ...

Right, you have to suggest the size and scope by some other means. Psychoacoustics come in to play, for sure.

As far as cardioids go, I never heard they get to sound thinner further off. It's just from a certain distance there is no proximity effect, but there shouldn't be a difference between 1.5 m and 20 m. Quite the contrary, HF will roll off with distance.
If you're looking for a multipattern that goes deep, check out the MKH800

I've heard that Sennheiser is really fine- steep, but I'm sure it's worth it. I'd go for it if it could take the kind of SPL I need it to handle to do close-up mic'ing of orchestral percussion- I need it to handle 120-30 dB SPL with minimal distortion, and not a lot of mics do that. The Gold Ref's do, 4003's will, but I either I couldn't get a spec on the MKH's or they just couldn't take it... I'd love to find out they could.

As for the reverse proximity effect at a distance, DPA's have it (Check the graphs on their site, dpamicrophones.com , KM184's have it, the Gold Refs have it. Maybe some mics don't- I've been trying to get to the bottom of this... hasn't been easy. Figured the classical guys would know and maybe give me a definitive answer.

[Ted Nightshade]

Scheops are out for me, as they can't handle the SPL I need.

My 4011, other than the bass roll off issue, can't handle the SPL either, and is kinda puny and sterile sounding compared to the Manley Gold Ref- a wonderful mic, but it can't handle air movement (we do a lot of outdoor recordings), and it is too bulky and delicate for regular stage use. We like to do a 1-mic deal for sound reinforcement of our mostly-percussion ensemble, when sound reinforcement is truly necessary. Acoustic just sounds so sweet, hate to mess with it!

I'm clear out in the Oregon woods, but maybe I could rent a 4003 & HMA4000 long distance from somewhere?

[Nathanael]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
I'm clear out in the Oregon woods, but maybe I could rent a 4003 & HMA4000 long distance from somewhere?

Absolutely - DreamHire ships nationwide -so do several others.

[Yannick]

A Sennheiser MKH80/MKH800 can take 136 dB SPL, or 142 with the pad.
An Mkh40 (cardioid only) 134 and 142 with a pad.

I've never heard them getting thinner by increasing the distance (of course the sound will change between 2m and 12m ...)

I've used my MKH's on rock drums - never had any problems with distortion. It's hard on the preamps though, as the MKH80 has a LOT of output.

[Bernd G]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade


I need it to handle 120-30 dB SPL with minimal distortion, and not a lot of mics do that. The Gold Ref's do, 4003's will, but I either I couldn't get a spec on the MKH's or they just couldn't take it... I'd love to find out they could.
[/B]

FYI, the Schoeps MK2 capsule has 0.5 % distortion @ 130dB SPL. The Sennheiser MKHs can take that EASILY (MKH 20 - 134 dB SPL, MKH 140 - 142 dB SPL max), however, they might overload your preamps because of their high output. I had a friend that loved the MKH 40s for close-mic live drums !
BTW, there is no "reverse proximity effect", only proximity effect or not. ALL pressure gradients roll off on the bottom, period. Some large diaphragm condensors have a less even frequency response favoring bass in the 100Hz region (ie U87), but the low frequencies, and I am speaking of the first and second octave here (30-60Hz), are the domain of the pressure devices. Now, pop engineers and classical engineers sometimes seem to mean different things when considering "bottom." For the former the bottom is the second octave (60 Hz +), for the latter the first octave (30 Hz +). Of course a big frequency "bump" in the 60 - 100 Hz region (whether due to proximity effect or uneven frequency response) will appear as vital to most people's perception of "bass frequencies". Consider also that pressure devices will pickup the excitations of room modes in a SPHERE, while a pressure-gradient rejects some of the room modes. This means that placed in a certain position a pressure-gradient will not pickup a certain frequency AT ALL. There is nothing you can do about this besides using a pressure device, or moving the microphone - again this is part of why placement is CRITICAL.
Here are some more fine pressure devices (omnis) to consider, I would hold them up to the best of the rest of them (Sennheisers, B&K, Schoeps):

Earthworks QTC 1
MBHO Haun 648 + KA 100
Microtech Gefell 296

The 296 has a large nickel diaphragm and combines directionality at higher frequency with a presence boost. The MBHO is very similar in quality to the Schoeps, only MUCH cheaper. I have been using the EW QTC for years, usually can use a little equalization in the presence range. The low octave is "thunderous" - down flat to a few Hz !!! Better use a roll-off!
OK, enough talk, back to work.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Bernd G
FYI, the Schoeps MK2 capsule has 0.5 % distortion @ 130dB SPL. The Sennheiser MKHs can take that EASILY (MKH 20 - 134 dB SPL, MKH 140 - 142 dB SPL max), however, they might overload your preamps because of their high output. I had a friend that loved the MKH 40s for close-mic live drums !

First, let me thank you and the others who have taken the time here to try to git me educatid... I appreciate it!

Can the MKHs take those levels with as little THD as the Schoeps MK2? With the DPAs, they reach .5% THD 20-40 dB before clipping, so I'm guessing that the Sennheisers must get to .5% THD sometime at least 10dB before clipping... just a guess, and all THD is not created equal, but solid state THD is something I have not yet developed a taste for. I find that a hint of distortion and a bit of edge works nicely on a loud drum set, but it's just awful on a vibraphone- things get edgy, one begins to think of broken glass... screaming freak loud notes on the vibes are a bit blurry when they overload your ears in person, but not edgy at all, and I find that edge to often in recording. Not a problem with the Gold Refs, would like to find some pressure omnis that do as well.

I'm thinking these MK2S capsules look fairly promising... as I usually use a single mic to capture percussion, vox, vibes, etc., from in the middle of the cluster where I can get the vocal intimate-style, I need to pick up things from all around the mic at least in a hemisphere. Usually I put all the really really high pitched stuff in one area, chimes and triangle and the brightest cymbal, and put the mic so that's right on-axis, but I have trouble getting the vibes to sound great from more behind the capsule. Of all the pressure mics you've mentioned, what is the best bet for getting a good picture of things from the biggest pickup area, other than the 4003 with that one acoustic modification gizmo that does that?

BTW, there is no "reverse proximity effect", only proximity effect or not.

Maybe if you have a minute extra you could look at dpamicrophones.com under the 4011, and then Illustrations. You can see clearly there the effect I'm talking about as "reverse proximity effect", which would better be described as "proximity effect at increasingly great distances". It's quite radical with the 4011. Is that a idiosyncracy of that one mic, or do other cardioids do that too?

ALL pressure gradients roll off on the bottom, period. Some large diaphragm condensors have a less even frequency response favoring bass in the 100Hz region (ie U87), but the low frequencies, and I am speaking of the first and second octave here (30-60Hz), are the domain of the pressure devices. Now, pop engineers and classical engineers sometimes seem to mean different things when considering "bottom." For the former the bottom is the second octave (60 Hz +), for the latter the first octave (30 Hz +). Of course a big frequency "bump" in the 60 - 100 Hz region (whether due to proximity effect or uneven frequency response) will appear as vital to most people's perception of "bass frequencies". Consider also that pressure devices will pickup the excitations of room modes in a SPHERE, while a pressure-gradient rejects some of the room modes. This means that placed in a certain position a pressure-gradient will not pickup a certain frequency AT ALL. There is nothing you can do about this besides using a pressure device, or moving the microphone - again this is part of why placement is CRITICAL.
Here are some more fine pressure devices (omnis) to consider, I would hold them up to the best of the rest of them (Sennheisers, B&K, Schoeps):

Earthworks QTC 1
MBHO Haun 648 + KA 100
Microtech Gefell 296

The 296 has a large nickel diaphragm and combines directionality at higher frequency with a presence boost. The MBHO is very similar in quality to the Schoeps, only MUCH cheaper. I have been using the EW QTC for years, usually can use a little equalization in the presence range. The low octave is "thunderous" - down flat to a few Hz !!! Better use a roll-off!
OK, enough talk, back to work.

So apparently I have yet to really begin to pick up the bass that's there in the room... that's a thrilling thought! I am definitely talking about 30hz and even lower... yum, what a treat to contemplate! I do hope to learn which of these pressure mics has the smoothest off-axis response with the least high frequency roll-off, off axis...

Thanks again!