DAV BG-2 vs. Crookwood Painpot (also including Pendulum & Millennia)

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by 0VU

If you haven't tried them yet, I'd suggest trying some Crookwood mic pres.
... Crookwoods are my first choice for anything needing clean, quiet, neutral/accurate, detailed and yet still musical preamps.
...For me, the Crookwood preamps can compete in the 'best preamp at any price' category where the DAV would find it much harder.

Of course, if you've aready tried Crookwoods and you didn't like them, ignore all of this

Being still opened to a preamp sound improvement (DAV is nice, but still ...), today finally the "Grammy winning" Crookwood preamp" arrived here for testing:

It is also available in the rack body with remote control:

I did some preliminary AB shots of bamboo flute and monochord (my favourite testing instrument, since the mics/instrument position is 100% fixed and the sound spectrum is very rich). I also added Pendulum and Millennia HV-3 monochord samples.
As usually , when something interesting arrives here, I happen to be very busy outside ... :-)) More samples may follow in the evening.

Mics: Schoeps MK2, AD Lavry Blue. This time the samples are 100% raw, no reverb, nothing ... so the overal sound is a bit modest but maybe good for the purpose ...



Monochord:

Crookwood

DAV

Pendulum

Millennia


Bamboo flute:

Crookwood

DAV

[Melodioso]

First, thanks a lot for doing this, specially in 16 Bit 44.1 KHz, downloading right now. I'm sure lots of people around here will find this very interesting...

About the Schoeps MK2, which capsule is it? The one with flat response, or the other ones (H and S) with the small HF boost?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

About the Schoeps MK2, which capsule is it? The one with flat response, or the other ones (H and S) with the small HF boost?

MK2 is MK2 (flat) unlike MK2H and MK2S

[d_fu]

Channels seem reversed on monhv3.wav.
Would be nice if this could be done with a splitter before the preamps, in order to have an identical signal going to all of them....


Daniel

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Channels seem reversed on monhv3.wav.
Woulde nice if this could be done with a splitter befor the preamps, on order to have an identical signal going to all of them....


Daniel

Actually HV3 sample was done earlier (in the same setup), so it is not as fresh as the others (I don´t have HV3 any more) and it is possible that I had the cables connected in an opposite way, sorry. I added it just because it was near and I thought it could be interesting too to compare. As always - all such samples are just a very approximate picture, no absolute information. I don´t have any preamp splitter and also - how would I then give 48V phantom power to Schoeps ?

The reason I wanted to try Crookwood (based on several great references and recommendations) was the fact, that there could be maybe few bits of openess and clarity I miss in DAV, which is great but seems to add a constant "syrup" to everything. My impressions so far say that Crookwood seems to be a bit more clean and "liquid". As if for example I could hear more sustain in Crookwood monochord samples than in DAV ... The flute seems to be a bit more "mellow" and detailed with Crookwood. But I will try more ...

[sunflute]

Thanks Ivo,

Listening to the bamboo flute.....
I prefer the Croowood....There seems to be more detail without harshness in the high frequencies.

Thanks again.
peace
Marco

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I don´t have any preamp splitter and also - how would I then give 48V phantom power to Schoeps?

With an external Phantom power supply... This was just an idea, not a complaint. It would make it easier to actually trace differences between the preamps.

The reason I wanted to try Crookwood (based on several great references and recommendations) was the fact, that there could be maybe few bits of openess and clarity I miss in DAV, which is great but seems to add a constant "syrup" to everything. My impressions so far say that Crookwood seems to be a bit more clean and "liquid".

It does seem extremely detailed indeed. What's the price tag on this funny looking bucket?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

With an external Phantom power supply... This was just an idea, not a complaint. It would make it easier to actually trace differences between the preamps.

I know ... Unfortunately I do not have either ...

Originally Posted by d_fu

It does seem extremely detailed indeed. What's the price tag on this funny looking bucket?

http://www.crookwood.com/products/Paintpot.htm#Prices

http://www.crookwood.com/products/iPre.htm#Prices

Nothing terribly cheap ... :-(

But actually the "bucket" looks quite incredible and futuristic, with all the controls, so many buttons, lights etc. VERY impressive and high-tech. You can also add an AD card inside up to 192 kHz (all the AES EBU connections, controls etc. are ready for it too ...). Remote control available as well... Attaching all the cables from up is very comfortable and easy... For location recordings it must be absolutely ideal (unless some charwoman pours by mistake some water inside ... )

Sorry for the typing mistake in the thread title (cannot be edited): it should be Paintpot not Painpot

I am going to record some violin, viola and drum, maybe guitar ... Will post more samples soon ...

[Melodioso]

Had some free time to spare, so... here my thoughts based on my taste and ears

On the flute samples:

the crookwood seems more present, as if the flute player is next to me. Very open and clear high end, in a pleasant way (maybe too bright). In comparison, the dav sounds like the instrument is behind a curtain, a little distant. Still enjoyable and musical, maybe already "lush" compared to the crookwood.

On the monochord samples:

taking the crook as reference, the dav sounds great, I prefer it here than on the flute. Again, less cristal-like than the crook, but very nice, with tight bass. The millennia is my less favourite of the four: the bass is a little bit muddy and round, I didn't like what it did with it. But there wasn't the HF boost that some people in the forums here say it has. I think it's the dav, which in comparison may be shy high up there. The pendulum was just beautiful. Balanced low and high end. Less glassy the the crookwood.

Well Ivo, you are the only who can comment on the transparency and precision of these pres, because you know how your instruments sound like in real. Out of the four, I prefer the pendulum, closely followed by the crookwood, which to me had the best bass restitution, precision, but was a bit too bright (that could be nice when distant micing a small ensemble or orchestra though). Then dav, and millennia last.

Is it possible to have some samples with percussion instruments? That would be nice and informative as well...


(what a beautiful instrument the monochord is btw... the bass and resonance is incredible. Could you post a pic of it pls?)

[Melodioso]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

MK2 is MK2 (flat) unlike MK2H and MK2S

Ok...

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I am going to record some violin, viola and drum, maybe guitar ... Will post more samples soon ...

Wonderful. Thanks!

[ISedlacek]

Here are few raw tones played on my favourite viola d´amore (with sympathetic resonating strings):

Viola d´amore:

Crookwood

DAV

Pendulum

[nandoanalog]

Coolness.....
I like them all.... They all sound remarkably good...


Thanks for your samples Ivo

[d_fu]

Just curious, where did you upload these files? I'm only getting about 5 KB/s each when downloading three...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Just curious, where did you upload these files? I'm only getting about 5 KB/s each when downloading three...

Seems to be something wrong at your side - I just tried and it downloads 430kB/s ...

[ISedlacek]

Here is a small drum sample:

Small drum:

Crookwood

DAV

Pendulum


Now I am curious about two last things: classical guitar and vocal ...

[Melodioso]

All these samples sound terrific, with small nuances... which may or may not be related to price...:

Crookwood iPre, 4 channels: ~ $3200 (edited, with remote cont.)
Millennia HV-3D, 4 channels: ~ $2950
Pendulum Audio Quartet, 1 channel: ~ $2800 (... +comp, +EQ, + de-esser)
D.A.V. Bg No 2, 4 channels: ~ $1750

Hope these numbers are accurate.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Seems to be something wrong at your side - I just tried and it downloads 430kB/s ...

Nope, everything ok here, although I "only" get DL rates of 240 kB/s...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Crookwood iPre, 4 channels: ~ $2600
Hope these numbers are accurate.

I would be happy if they are ... but unfortunately you have to add $590 for the iPre remote control (does not work without it)

[nandoanalog]

Cool Ivo. Those drum samples were extremely enlightening to me.
The crookwood has lots of air. The DAV sounds more focused.... I`ll say that the crookwood sounds the best to me on this one.
But maybe the DAV can make some magic with cymbals...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Cool Ivo. Those drum samples were extremely enlightening to me.
The crookwood has lots of air. The DAV sounds more focused.... I`ll say that the crookwood sounds the best to me on this one.
But maybe the DAV can make some magic with cymbals...

I feel that Crookwood has basically more details and air ... and maybe also slightly more transient "slap" ... And how do you like Pendulum drum ? I don´t want to be too quick but I maybe feel that it generally produces the sound closest to the real instruments ...

Cymbals ... I will try to find something similar around ...

[d_fu]

Got a picture of the room you're recording in?

Daniel

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Got a picture of the room you're recording in?

Daniel

http://studio.savita.cz/index.php?pa...ie&folder=2005

No church unfortunately ... Just acoustically treated studio room 7x5x3,5m

Normally I would add a nice reverb to everything ... which then always sounds nice

But the "reverb" you may here at viola damore samples comes directly from the instrument itself (sympathetic strings)

[DavidKakon]

I find the crockwood sounds like my DAV with THAT1510 opamps.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by DavidKakon

I find the crockwood sounds like my DAV with THAT1510 opamps.

Really that easy ?

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I feel that Crookwood has basically more details and air ... and maybe also slightly more transient "slap" ... And how do you like Pendulum drum ? I don´t want to be too quick but I maybe feel that it generally produces the sound closest to the real instruments ...

Cymbals ... I will try to find something similar around ...

The pendulum sample was not working... Now it is.
It sounds fairly like the crookwood in terms os air. And it sounds louder than the other pre amp samples. Maybe the tubes are compressing, or adding parallel overtones...
My point is, the pendulum sounds great. But the crookwood costs way less. And the sound diference is minimal.
If my job was making 2 track recordings, I would prefer the pendulum. But If you are going to mix a bunch of tracks, then the crookwood is a better choise. It costs way less, and you wont be able to tell if it is a pendulum or a crookwood when the mix is done.

At least that`s my opinion.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

The pendulum sample was not working... Now it is.
It sounds fairly like the crookwood in terms os air. And it sounds louder than the other pre amp samples. Maybe the tubes are compressing, or adding parallel overtones...
My point is, the pendulum sounds great. But the crookwood costs way less. And the sound diference is minimal.
If my job was making 2 track recordings, I would prefer the pendulum. But If you are going to mix a bunch of tracks, then the crookwood is a better choise. It costs way less, and you wont be able to tell if it is a pendulum or a crookwood when the mix is done.

At least that`s my opinion.

I would say that Pendulum and Crookwood sound quite different in general ... Crookwood being extremely transparent, Pendulum large, opulent and slightly colourful ...

[DavidKakon]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Really that easy ?

the THAT1510 clears up the upper mids abit. thats what I hear from your samples is different fom the dav and the crockwood. I would post an A/B but I switched all my opamps in my DAVBG8 to THAT1510.

best
David

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by DavidKakon

the THAT1510 clears up the upper mids abit. thats what I hear from your samples is different fom the dav and the crockwood. I would post an A/B but I switched all my opamps in my DAVBG8 to THAT1510.

best
David

Did you do it just yourself ? Maybe you can email me your DAV for this evening to compare ?

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I would say that Pendulum and Crookwood sound quite different in general ... Crookwood being extremely transparent, Pendulum large, opulent and slightly colourful ...

Yes. I understand you. Remember I said that it sounds like the pendulum compresses, or ads parallel harmonics to the sound?... I think we are talking about the same, but with diferent words.
The pendulum is warmer (parallel distortion). The crook is a bit more sterile (transistor does not add any parallel distortion).
If you mach the level (not the meters. But the level that we perceive) of both pres (crookwood and pendulum), they will sound "fairly" the same.

I forgot to say.... What a fine mic choice for pre amp testing. I couldn`t choose better than that.

[DavidKakon]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Did you do it just yourself ? Maybe you can email me your DAV for this evening to compare ?

actually Mick installed sockets for the opamp so its as easy as flipping the lid and switching the 8 pin amp. the THAT's are only a few dollars a piece from mouser.

please note: Im not trying to second guess Mick's work, I am highly unqualified to do that, its just that i have 8 preamps so I figured why not play around with a couple fora little variety