DAV BG-2 vs. Crookwood Painpot (also including Pendulum & Millennia)

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Plush

unh-huh. . .

Glad to see we agree on that!


Roland

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Isle of Weight

Ivo,
sent you a PM..

AA.

Replied on that

[Melodioso]

Thanks for the pics of the monochord Ivo. Please PM me if you release a CD with this instrument, I'll buy it!

So, did you take a decision about the Crookwood? Or does your quest continue? Anyway, the quality of the samples you posted was superb. Your signal chain is top. Maybe a comparison with a GML or a Pacifica since people use that for classical as well (I saw you'll get one on friday), and you'll have tested most of the clean pres and found your holy grails hopefully!

The crookwood made it to my "must buy gear list" btw...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Thanks for the pics of the monochord Ivo. Please PM me if you release a CD with this instrument, I'll buy it!

So, did you take a decision about the Crookwood? Or does your quest continue? Anyway, the quality of the samples you posted was superb. Your signal chain is top. Maybe a comparison with a GML or a Pacifica since people use that for classical as well (I saw you'll get one on friday), and you'll have tested most of the clean pres and found your holy grails hopefully!

The crookwood made it to my "must buy gear list" btw...

Pacifica will arrive here on Thursday. Heaven forgive

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Pacifica will arrive here on Thursday. Heaven forgive

Ivo, Will you please post some samples of the pacifica when you get it?

You are always so kind to share your time and findings with the Gearslutz community so thank you in advance.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by sunflute

Ivo, Will you please post some samples of the pacifica when you get it?

You are always so kind to share your time and findings with the Gearslutz community so thank you in advance.

Well, as I said in the other thread: If in the meantime I record lot of nice music for my new CD, then yes, I could maybe again afford to do a bit sound alchemy comparison But only if ...

[Nrt]

Thank you very much for for the very nice samples.
I checked the Monochord samples.

Pendulum : Great sweet tube sound. I love to have it.
Millennia : Honest. Most graceful.
Crookwood : Very nice but a bit HI-FI-sh to me.
DAV : Nothing special.

I don't understand why you sold Millenia for DAV. They are totally different animal. Dav simply doesn't have the clarity and elegance of Millenia. It seems like you sold Millenia because of its brutal honesty, but... I prefer DPA+Mytek+MILLENIA to Schoeps+Blue+Crookwood, so I think we have a bit different taste, anyway.

[Trebor Flow]

Originally Posted by Nrt

Thank you very much for for the very nice samples.
I checked the Monochord samples.

Pendulum : Great sweet tube sound. I love to have it.
Millennia : Honest. Most graceful.
Crookwood : Very nice but a bit HI-FI-sh to me.
DAV : Nothing special.

I don't understand why you sold Millenia for DAV. They are totally different animal. Dav simply doesn't have the clarity and elegance of Millenia. It seems like you sold Millenia because of its brutal honesty... I prefer DPA+Mytek+MILLENIA to Schoeps+Blue+Crookwood, so I think we have a bit different taste, anyway.

+1 on the DAV

Sheesh, now their's two of us who prefere Millennia pre's over DAV.

I have done more testing and I still way prefere the HV3 over the DAV to me the HV3 sounds just fantastic, it just has the most fab mid range - so beautiful.

Trebor

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by Trebor Flow

+1 on the DAV

Sheesh, now their's two of us who prefere Millennia pre's over DAV.

I have done more testing and I still way prefere the HV3 over the DAV to me the HV3 sounds just fantastic, it just has the most fab mid range - so beautiful.

Trebor

Millenia !!!! Im sure its a fine peice of kit but no way does that sound an improvement on a DAV.

[Nrt]

I checked the other samples from ISedlacek (Thanks again!) and i changed my mind. I think DAV has its own great sound. It sounds totally different from Millenia, so A/B is nonsence to me. I've been using Millenia and original Neve 1084. DAV seems to be a great addition to my mic-pre selection, but I would not sell my Millenia/1084. I do not still underestand why ISedlacek sold Millenia.... Crookwood is not my taste, I choose Millenia over Crookwood.

[ISedlacek]

As for the "honesty", it is Crookwood that is really (incredibly) honest and transparent, not Millennia. Since I play all the instruments and know how they really sound, I can assure you, that in reality they (all) sound almost the same as Crookwood renders them (considering Schoeps MK2 and Lavry to be quite transparent too). To me, Millennia sounds tiny bit "rough" and hard, lacking a bit bass and letting the HF sounding less pleasant (edgy) than they really are ... and generally not very "musical" (for a lack of better term). I am not THAT big ascetic to let my instruments sound less nice than they really sound. At least the same nice, please ...

DAV adds a kind of pleasant "smoothness" to the sound, that ears may often prefer to the totall (Crookwood) transparency - you can listen to the "real music" samples later in the thread (viola+guitar).
Pendulum is very special, not really "tubey". I must try it more on violin, flutes etc., so far I was a bit shy to use it in this area ...

[Nrt]

As for the "honesty", it is Crookwood that is really (incredibly) honest and transparent, not Millennia. Since I play all the instruments and know how they really sound, I can assure you, that in reality they (all) sound almost the same as Crookwood renders them (considering Schoeps MK2 and Lavry to be quite transparent too). To me, Millennia sounds tiny bit "rough" and hard, lacking a bit bass and letting the HF sounding less pleasant (edgy) than they really are ... and generally not very "musical" (for a lack of better term). I am not THAT big ascetic to let my instruments sound less nice than they really sound. At least the same nice, please ...

I really respect your ear, but I can't agree with your comment about Millenia. Since there is no truely "transparent and honest" recording equipment in this world anyway, all of the equipment has to have some colorlation. I didn't say Millenia is "transparent". Instead, what I was tryng to say is Millenia's coloration is "ethically honest", instead of ear-candy Hi-Fi. Your Millenia Monochord sample is very harsh to my ear, but I think it sounds harsh not because of Millenia but Schoeps and/or the other circumstances. I have heard tons of beautiful recording done with Millenia, and they're not harsh at all. Although your Millenia sample sounds harsh, it gives me more realistic and brutal honest image of the recording. Please check the sample again, I believe your ears would agree with me even if the sound is not your taste. Millenia gives us not soft-focus-pin-up-girl image but documentary photography taken by Leica. Millenia's brutal honest attitude is truly beautiful and graceful. Millenia is the art, but most people doesn't understand the art, sorry...

PS: Real instrument never sounds like your Monochord Crookwood sample, especially transient response. Crookwood sounds like Ultra Hi-Fi Yamaha Motif to me. Pleasant but Plastic.

DAV adds a kind of pleasant "smoothness" to the sound, that ears may often prefer to the totall (Crookwood) transparency - you can listen to the "real music" samples later in the thread (viola+guitar).

Yes! I started loving DAV after I checked viola+guitar samples. I 100% agree with you. DAV is very musical.

[ISedlacek]

You see, nrt (BTW wouldn´t it be more pleasant to use our real names ??), we are basically talking about very subtle nuances, which could be easily unnoticed by many common listeners listening on common devices ... The rest is for our own passionate sound alchemy pleasure and endless discussions ...

Anyway, out of these four (or rather five - including Pacifica) preamps, Pendulum and DAV stand step forward to me. I have yet to discover more of Pendulum and to try it more on instruments like violin, flutes, etc... (some time ago I felt they sound a bit too coloured, but times change sometime ...)

[Nrt]

ISedlacek, it is very reasonable to me that you chose DAV and Pen. (BTW the difference between those pre is not subtle but obvious to me.)

[Nrt]

But.. I think Pen and DAV used in the same music may not be a very good idea. DAV and PEN would fight each other in the same music. The tracks recorded with DAV would sound just too small and lo-fi in front of big clear sound of Pen. I personally don't like to have too many different color of the sound in the same song anyway. DAV and Vinage Neve or API (For Drums and Gtr) seems to be a better combination, IMO. Your DAV drum and monocord samples don't sound impressive at all. the transient response of DAV seems to be a bit slow....

Or Pen and Crookwood combination also might be musically fine, not my taste at all, though.

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by Nrt

But.. I think Pen and DAV used in the same music may not be a very good idea. DAV and PEN would fight each other in the same music. The tracks recorded with DAV would sound just too small and lo-fi in front of big clear sound of Pen. I personally don't like to have too many different color of the sound in the same song anyway. DAV and Vinage Neve or API (For Drums and Gtr) seems to be a better combination, IMO. Your DAV drum and monocord samples don't sound impressive at all. the transient response of DAV seems to be a bit slow....

Or Pen and Crookwood combination also might be musically fine, not my taste at all, though.

Out of all of them my prefered sound is from the DAV first, Crookwood second, Il like the pendulum very, very much also. I am also very impressed with the Monord samples. Each to his own of course.

Dave

[Søren Bendixen]

Originally Posted by DavidKakon

the THAT1510 clears up the upper mids abit. thats what I hear from your samples is different fom the dav and the crockwood. I would post an A/B but I switched all my opamps in my DAVBG8 to THAT1510.

best
David

small hiijacktutt : What is THAT1510?
I have a DAV BG.2 so it sounds interesting..
soebx

[jcool]

nrt,
the "fighting" comment you made doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I think that you've constructed an analogy that doesn't correspond to what happens in the recording of music.
Maybe I am wrong. Please explain the tension between the DAV and the Pendulum.
oh, will my transformer-output preamps fight with my transformerless pres?
I hope I don't have to cage them.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by soebx

small hiijacktutt : What is THAT1510?
I have a DAV BG.2 so it sounds interesting..
soebx

THAT1510 is an OpAmp

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by sunflute

THAT1510 is an OpAmp

I would like to hear a direct comparison. As I already said, I asked Mick about it and he said there is absolutely no sound difference between using this or the other one (even as per measurement). The only difference is THAT1510 is very slightly quieter. He uses either depending on availability

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by jcool

nrt,
the "fighting" comment you made doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I think that you've constructed an analogy that doesn't correspond to what happens in the recording of music.
Maybe I am wrong. Please explain the tension between the DAV and the Pendulum.
oh, will my transformer-output preamps fight with my transformerless pres?
I hope I don't have to cage them.

Too theoretical it sounds to me too. Unless you record (overdub) a duo/trio using the same instrument, where using a different preamp for each take would not be really recommendable, it does not matter much what you choose and use in any combination. There is no tension.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I would like to hear a direct comparison. As I already said, I asked Mick about it and he said there is absolutely no sound difference between using this or the other one (even as per measurement). The only difference is THAT1510 is very slightly quieter. He uses either depending on availability

I had a chance to compare the THAT1510 with the ssm2019 and I found the THAT1510 to be a bit more detailed in the high frequencies but the ssm2019 a bit smoother sounding. I ended up using the ssm2019 as I thought it was more balanced. Still, the THAT1510 sounded very nice.

Peace
Marco

[Nrt]

the "fighting" comment you made doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I think that you've constructed an analogy that doesn't correspond to what happens in the recording of music.
Maybe I am wrong. Please explain the tension between the DAV and the Pendulum.
oh, will my transformer-output preamps fight with my transformerless pres?
I hope I don't have to cage them.

I cannot say anything about your pres until I hear them. I never used DAV and Pendulum in my real life, so maybe I'm wrong. It could be very exciting combination. It is not a good idea to narrow creative choice. Minimoog and cello duo could sound exciting. You're totally right at this point.

One thing I can say is that I always prefer the sound of simple production (less mic, less processing....) to the big post modern production (too many different mics and processing). We may have different philosophy of recording art. Less is More.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So you use Crookwood ADC cards ... How do you feel about the converter sound ? Did you have a chance to compare it directly to the "big guys" like Lavry, Prism etc. ?

Originally Posted by Roland

Not at the moment, I will be using them in the near future, at that point I will report back on them, possibly post some samples etc.

Regards


Roland

So, what's the verdict? I've run out of space in my Lavry and am considering a Crookwood with the ADC...

Douglas.

[XLR2XLR]

The DAV is simply outshone in every way by the Crookwood
The DAV has been smoked, it is dull sounding and lacks 3 dimensionality.
Anyone who defends it against the crookwood is listening with something other than their ears.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

The DAV is simply outshone in every way by the Crookwood
The DAV has been smoked, it is dull sounding and lacks 3 dimensionality.
Anyone who defends it against the crookwood is listening with something other than their ears.

And now imagine there is yet another step higher: and it is the new Forssell JFET stereo preamp ... yet another league than Crookwood ... in every sense ...

But I don´t think the difference between DAV and Crookwood was as sharp as you describe. Neither is perfect and although DAV lacks 3D a bit, some details and is not really balanced throughout the whole spectrum, in certain way it sounds more pleasant than Crookwood, which sounds more detailed and 3D, but slightly "hyped" somehow in HF, not 100% natural and also not "full size" (like for example Forssell), tends to be a bit "thinish"

[XLR2XLR]

Thanks you for putting such nice music online and very nice
preamps thanks again.

The monochord is simply devine !

[mosrite]

I have only just got around to listening to your samples Ivo. Thanks for putting them up. I also had a listen to your old Millenia vs DAV choral sample as Millenia seems to be cropping up in this thread too.

Based on this (and a small bit of testing I conducted myself a couple of years ago) I have to say that I am very suprised by this huge enthusiasm for the DAV preamps.

Yes they are good preamps. Yes they are arguably good value for money but what I am hearing does not elevate them beyond that status.

The DAV is veiled to my ears. But veiling can sound pleasant right? I would perhaps make a bit of an analogy with ribbon mics vs condensers...if I could be bothered

Instead here is what I heard in your samples:

DAV+MILLENIA
DAV has a midrange blending / thickness that makes me lose details within reverb tails and thus depth. The DAV sounds perfectly pleasant but Millenia seems to give me the full picture through a clear window. It has that all important seperation and space around the players.

DAV+Crookwood
Same blending / thickness exists but this time it has different consequences. On the drum sample the Crookwood gives me the players fingers, unlike with the DAV whereby I have to try to imagine them. I believe this might be a consequence of how each deals with transients as much as with their tonal characteristics.

The Viola sample was the one that really said it all to me though. If we are talking 'emotive response of the listener being influenced by the tools' then the Crookwood won hands down. The DAV, in comparison, sounded flat, vintage (sometimes a good thing perhaps) and closed. The Crookwood had air, openness, detail and a beautiful top end completely void of any harshness. It worked with the instrument, opening up at the right times to create that all important emotional response in the listener.

While the Millenia was like looking through a clear window (on a cold day perhaps), the Crookwood is like the window has been taken away completely.

Is the Crookwood hyped (some suggesting it to be too 'hi-fi')?? I don't know but it seemed to work here.

Based on your samples thus far Ivo I would struggle to go for the DAV unless money was tight or I was deliberately striving for a understated, thick or vintage sound.

BTW, did you happen to find out what the ADC card was like with the Crookwood? And also, are the pres indentical in the rackmount version? I am now very tempted by this strange device...

[Plush]

No, I cannot agree that a judgement between Crookwood and DAV can be done from online samples. The reason is that one cannot walk into the room where the sound originates and hear the instrument being played. If one could do that, then a comparison could be made to the recorded pick-up.

Yesterday I began the season with a major American orchestra where I use both DAV and Crookwood. I've been a Crookwood Paintpot user since 1992 and DAV since 1998.

Both are superb mic amps. The reason I am using them is because they offer up the sound that is accurate and pleasing. When comparing the sound of the orchestra in the hall and the recorded pick up, one finds the recorded sound even more pleasant than the auditorium sound.

I cannot say that DAV is veiled or lacking detail. I cannot endorse damning the Crookwood with the term "too hi-fi." Only after spending decades with the above units can one say that the sound is, for both, among the handful of the best available today.

[mosrite]

No, I cannot agree that a judgement between Crookwood and DAV can be done from online samples.

Hey Plush. I believe that I made it clear that my judgement was based purely on these samples. It is therefore a given that it can not be a final judgement. I absolutely agree with your opinion that one cannot judge fully unless one is also on the session (at least not in terms of accuracy and faithful representation of sound source etc etc).

My own conclusions were made simply on what I heard in Ivo's samples.

I have a DAV arriving here today and personally am going to be very interested in comparing it to my trusty Amek pre.

BTW Plush you must have heard the Crookwood ADC right?