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DAV BG-2 vs. Crookwood Painpot (also including Pendulum & Millennia)
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#31
6th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I would be happy if they are ... but unfortunately you have to add $590 for the iPre remote control (does not work without it)
Ouch. Didn't see that one. The post has been edited with the correct prices. Those crookwood pres aren't cheap! I wonder now how they would compare with the GML's...

The drum samples were interesting. In my order of preference: the crookwood is life-like: you can almost hear the hand hitting the drum skin. Nice presence, bright and very detailed, but without any HF excess. Great bass. And decay! Longer tan on the other pres... The pendulum was good but maybe colored, the bass/low mid was a little bit boomy, not as focused as the crookwood. And the dav again seemed further away. Good but again less open than the crookwood. Did you record at the same distance from the mic? (all the drum samples seem to be normalized)

You are not making my life easier! I am planning on getting a clean 4 channels pre in the near future... and was thinking about dav. And now these crook seem great. Except for the price (who needs a remote control anyway. I'm not a grandpa!)
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Now I listened again to the samples on the big BW speakers (before mostly on HD-650 headphones) and played little bit more (guitar etc) ... and got pondering whether DAV does not sound a bit more "euphonic", more pleasant to the ear in the end ? Does Crookwood sound a bit too crispy maybe ? Well, the maybe the right time to go to bed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso View Post
Did you record at the same distance from the mic? (all the drum samples seem to be normalized)

You are not making my life easier! I am planning on getting a clean 4 channels pre in the near future... and was thinking about dav. And now these crook seem great. Except for the price (who needs a remote control anyway. I'm not a grandpa!)
Yes, I tried to keep the same distance ...
Hmm, the remote control is really the very last thing I need ...
#33
6th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Now I listened again to the samples on the big BW speakers (before mostly on HD-650 headphones) and played little bit more (guitar etc) ... and got pondering whether DAV does not sound a bit more "euphonic", more pleasant to the ear in the end ? Does Crookwood sound a bit too crispy maybe ? Well, the best time to go to bed
The crookwood are definately "bright" compared to dav. But without being harsh or unpleasant. Or maybe it's the dav which is "euphonic" or mellower. It seems that you recorded quite close to the instrument. It would sound quite different if you were in a nice hall or auditorium with more space and distance in between. At the end both are great. The four of the preamps tested are great! Time to go back to music I say!

Or to bed. Good night!
#34
6th March 2007
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The Crookwood is a very good mic amp.
The DAV Broadhurst Gardens range of mic amps are very good mic amps.

on second thought. . .

the DAV
mic amps are the best mic amps in the world.

(Crookwood Paintpot user since 1992, DAV mic amp user since 2000.)

Last edited by Plush; 7th March 2007 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: spelling mistake
#35
6th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The Crookwood is a very good mic amp.
The DAV Broadhurst Gardens range of mic amps are very good mic amps.

on second thought. . .

the DAV mic amps are the best mic amps in the world.

Unfortunately 0VU doesn't agree with you!

Personally speaking, being that I am looking like the biggest gear slut in here tonight (yes guy's I've got 24 channels of i-pre comming next month), I'm going to say it's horses for courses. In truth there is possibly not a lot in it, but the Crookwoods spec better, so in my book I'll trust that they are really more pure.

Regards to all

Roland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
In truth there is possibly not a lot in it, but the Crookwoods spec better, so in my book I'll trust that they are really more pure.
Well, I would always put the sound, euphony and emotional content above any "purity" and "specs". Which brings more of it, I am trying to find ... Crookwood is for sure more detailed, but is it also more pleasant to ears ? Maybe yes, maybe not ...
#37
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BTW, what kind (brand?) of monochord is that? i love the sound...!

David
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6th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Unfortunately 0VU doesn't agree with you!
Roland

Heaven forbid!

The last thing I require is for anyone to agree with me.

I hear what I hear and I trust my ears.
#39
6th March 2007
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I like what I hear hear, thaks for the effort in posting these samples. I have a question for those more enlightended than me.

Would the DACS Clarity be just too clean against these other great contenders ? I dont know it but it has been on my wish list to try.

Dave
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7th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c View Post
Would the DACS Clarity be just too clean against these other great contenders ? I dont know it but it has been on my wish list to try.

Dave
I used to have DACS and sold it. I did not feel it sounds too musical in the end ... I agree with the vivid description Mr.OVU gave here few days ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0VU View Post
The DACS was just too ...erm... I dunno really, it's hard to describe, just too everything. At first, it's quite beguiling but I found the effect wore off - a bit like looking though a highly polished polarising filter - very clean, saturated, vivid, bright (in the can see/hear everything way, not in the earsplitting way), super detailed, super quiet, super accurate, etc. etc. and I found it all got a bit too much. Not to say that it sounds bright or hyped - that's not the impression it creates, it's more subtle than that. Maybe just that it was perhaps forgetting about the music in the persuit of paper technical perfection. I dunno; dancing about architecture again!
If I want to use just one adjective for it , I would say it sounds a bit "hollow". But YMMV, of course ...
#41
7th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I used to have DACS and sold it. I did not feel it sounds too musical in the end ... I agree with the vivid description Mr.OVU gave here few days ago:



If I want to use just one adjective for it , I would say it sounds a bit "hollow". But YMMV, of course ...
Thats the impression Im getting of it. I think thats not that way I want to go.

If the Crookwood was used in a mix with the DAV how well would they complement each other do you think ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c View Post

If the Crookwood was used in a mix with the DAV how well would they complement each other do you think ?
Well, I don´t do any usual rock/pop mixes, but yes - today I will definitely try more of "real music" (not just some standalone dry samples) - like solo instrument with accompaniment: DAV vs Crookwood used on both ... And I will hear whether there is any difference or a clear improvement. Should you be interested I can post the samples as well ... When I now listened to yesterday samples on Koss Porta consumer headphones, I definitely felt lot of differences between DAV and Crookwood samples ...
#43
7th March 2007
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I listened one more time to the samples this morning. Generally, I prefer the sound of the crookwood. To my ears, it's more pleasant, it breathes fresh air and liveness. However, the differences are not huge. If the crookwood was available without the $600 remote, I would consider buying it. But since it costs $1400 more than the dav, to me these nuances don't justify the price gap... Others might think differently, specially you Ivo since you already have the dav. I prefer invest those $1400 somewhere else...

Please post your final decision. Take your time with the test, and thanks for saring those samples!



Mel
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7th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso View Post
I listened one more time to the samples this morning. Generally, I prefer the sound of the crookwood. To my ears, it's more pleasant, it breathes fresh air and liveness.
My feelings too, so far. More "hifi", deep and detailed ... Paintpot does not require remote control ... But it is only 2ch ...
I will try to record and AB a piece of real music today ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso View Post
If the crookwood was available without the $600 remote, I would consider buying it. But since it costs $1400 more than the dav, to me these nuances don't justify the price gap... Others might think differently, specially you Ivo since you already have the dav. I prefer invest those $1400 somewhere else...
Well, the small, highly sophisticated differences cost always a lot (any cheap mic, preamp, AD can generally give you a similar overall sound as the best, most esoteric ones. The difference is rarely night and day. You hear the same voice or instrument. But when it comes to the subtle details, depth and emotional appeal, it may be quite different. Since my music is generally very subtle, detailed and emotional. for me these attributes are very important and having DAV (which I like much more than my previous Millennia), I still maybe feel, that its sound limits my wings a bit and that the real instruments sound a bit different than DAV renders ... But let us see ...

BTW - anyone ever tried Martech MSS-10 ? Many big words are said about this preamp (cleaner than other clean ones ...)
#45
7th March 2007
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Ok, I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek
I will try to record and AB a piece of real music today ...
Could you do as well (if it's not too much to ask ) one example using your two schoeps feeding in mono the dav and crookwood? Your examples sound better in AB stereo, but for comparison purpose, recording the exact same material in mono will reveal even more.

Mel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso View Post
Could you do as well (if it's not too much to ask ) one example using your two schoeps feeding in mono the dav and crookwood? Your examples sound better in AB stereo, but for comparison purpose, recording the exact same material in mono will reveal even more.

Mel
OK, good idea ! I will try to put those mics as close as possible, which is not that easy with M600 mic mounts ...
#47
7th March 2007
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Are the Schoeps CCM 2 types ie small mics or the Mk2 and CMC 5/6 body.

I have 8 CCM 4s but no modular mics and ive never been sure if theres an audible difference.

Sorry for the digression.....
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Direct ("splitting") AB mono files

So I did an easy thing: put two Schoeps (MK21) as close together as possible, diverted one channel to DAV, the other to Crookwood, so everything should be almost the same for both. Do you still hear a difference ? (of course it does not sound very elevating in this mono ... just scientific):

(Mono direct split AB!)

Flute:

Crookwood

DAV

Drum:

Crookwood

DAV

Zither:

Crookwood

DAV
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Ciao Ivo,
maybe Gordon, Fearn and Forssell Fetcode are the last ones you would still need to test among top-notch preamps for your acoustic music? You must have thought about these...
Thanks very much for sharing your experiences


Best regards
Massimo
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I think the direct mono split vocal sample is probably the most revealing as per the differences between DAV and Crookwood (MK21 used):

Vocal direct mono split:

Crookwood

DAV

Seems that DAV adds/blurrs something in the lower mids ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
Ciao Ivo,
maybe Gordon, Fearn and Forssell Fetcode are the last ones you would still need to test among top-notch preamps for your acoustic music? You must have thought about these...
Thanks very much for sharing your experiences


Best regards
Massimo
Ciao Massimo,

I think Fearn is quite on the opposite side of natural clean sound ... I was thinking about Gordon, but it is quite difficult to get it here for trying ...
For sure there are several good wells with clean water all around, but having three in the garden does not quench your thirst better than having just one ... So far I feel the Crookwood well offers a nice fresh mountain spring water ... with those few bits of freshness I was maybe a bit thirsty for ...

Maybe the last thing I would like to try one day would be Martech MSS-10 ... But can be something yet cleaner than clean ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidKakon View Post
the THAT1510 clears up the upper mids abit. thats what I hear from your samples is different fom the dav and the crockwood. I would post an A/B but I switched all my opamps in my DAVBG8 to THAT1510.

best
David
Interesting. I just called Mick about that (whether I could change these opamps in my DAV too) and he said that it is worth it at all and according to him THAT and Burrbrown (or how it is called) sound exactly the same (also per measurements) and he uses both just dependent on the availability of each ... The only difference is that THAT1510 is tiny bit more quiet ... At least that was His Master´s voice ....
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A bit of real music

So now finally the main point of all this: a bit of real music.

Here is a small sketch of improvised viola d´amore (a specially adjusted ancient viola with sympathetic resonating strings) and nylon string guitar duo record fully on Crookwood and then DAV preamps. Do you feel a difference ?
No other treatment than adding a nice "mystical" reverb ...

Viola d´amore + guitar duo:

Crookwood

DAV

My feeling is that there is a difference. But I am not 100% sure which of them I like better. Crookwood sounds a bit more detailed and open, athough a bit less velvet and slightly sharper (maybe also "harder" ?). DAV sounds smoother, more gentle, but maybe a bit "vatish" or slightly veiled in the lower region ? ... I would be interested to hear what you think - from the musical/appealing/emotional/aesthetic point of view. Simply which type of sound (of these two) is caressing/uplifting you more, touching you deeper ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I would be interested to hear what you think - from the musical/appealing/emotional/aesthetic point of view.
I haven't listened to the samples, but I've got to say - what you're describing isn't the product of a preamp but a performance. Of course, one performance is going to be better than the other, but that isn't going to be because of the preamps. Unless you subconsciously prefer one of the preamps and inadvertently perform better when going through that one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturalstudio View Post
I haven't listened to the samples, but I've got to say - what you're describing isn't the product of a preamp but a performance. Of course, one performance is going to be better than the other, but that isn't going to be because of the preamps. Unless you subconsciously prefer one of the preamps and inadvertently perform better when going through that one.
Well, yes and no. Of course, the performance is the essential factor, no doubts about it. But unless you are present at a live performance, how you serve it on the "recorded plate" later, is yet another important factor. Rendering (translating) sounds and blending them together, can bring various results and type of appeal to the listener. An extreme example: the same performance recorded on some cheap Chinese mics and Digi 001 will probably make quite a different emotional appeal on a listener than if recorded on top end mics/preamp/ AD ...

Similarly, but in less extreme range, using various mics/preamps etc. can again shape the sound in slightly different way and the effects on the listener may not the same even in case of the same performance ...

Even if using the same mics, changing a preamp from say Millennia to Neve will quite change the vibrations of music ...

So I am trying to find out whether for my particular purpose there is any difference between DAV and Crookwood (Pendulum ) etc. And they for sure do not sound the same ...

It also depends on what kind of listening enviroment you listen. For evaluating such factors I often prefer to leave the studio "perfect monitoring" and to listen on "normal" devices - like Koss Porta heapdhones or Panasonic home hifi ... These are actually the main plates we serve the food. Just now I listened to those samples on these devices and somehow felt that DAV sound rendering brings maybe a bit richer, mellower, softer and sweeter feeling of the same (or similar - the performances are not exactly the same) music. Just my immediate impression
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Re: the viola d'amore and guitar samples

I find the reverb very distracting to critically listen to what are rather subtle differences between these preamps. Frankly, they both sound very fine. If you've got the coin, why not diversify and just have some of each on hand: variety for variety's sake.
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8th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VukOnCrack View Post
Re: the viola d'amore and guitar samples

I find the reverb very distracting to critically listen to what are rather subtle differences between these preamps.
All the previous samples are 100% raw and dry, done for that very purpose. The last sample was done to resemble the real music rendering (as on a record - there I would not put dry instruments, at least not for this type of music ...)
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Fo me the DAV recording wins, cant say exactly why, seems to it has that more 'magical' feel about it. I dont know if thats performance or not but it seems to be slightly smoother more integrated somehow.

Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c View Post
Fo me the DAV recording wins, cant say exactly why, seems to it has that more 'magical' feel about it. I dont know if thats performance or not but it seems to be slightly smoother more integrated somehow.

Dave
Well, I wouldn´t contradict you ... Crookwood is for sure a bit cleaner, slightly more open and detailed but maybe the DAV recording sounds a bit more appealing, sweet, smooth, richer or something like that ? More euphonic to say it shortly ? I will try 1-2 more slightly different samples.

Basically I don´t need to collect lot of things, I just need 2-4 absolutely top end channels for my needs, nothing more. I changed all my Millennia collection for DAV, since I liked its sound far better. I also have Pendulum MDP-1, which is quite a different animal than DAV. Being aware of certain instant "smoothness" which DAV gives to the recordings, I started pondering whether or not I miss some more openess and detail and more clarity. But it seems (after already comparing to two different top end preamps - Millennia and Crookwood) that it is probably the magic beauty of it. I think it is very easy to add that slight bit of air to a DAV recording, if needed. But to add that sweetness or smoothness to 100% clean recording would be more difficult. That said - DAV is for sure still very clean.
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Do you know which you will settle on yet ? May be both !

I think for what Im doing the DAV will be really good, I do like the Crookwood though and both are better than all of the other pres Ive listended to.

Also I wanted to thank you firstly for making these samples available to us it has helped me 10 times more than anything I found on line about preamps. it has inspired me a greeat deal. Also for maiking such good music, do you sell you music via CD or orthe means ?

Dave
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