Big Band Project

[pkautzsch]

Here is a short report about the first of a set of live recordings of a Big Band.
Samples can be found in the "work in progress" forum: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=112353

As the stage is quite crowded, and as their conductor wants lots of control, I decided to use some more mics than I'd normally like to: each sax one mic, 2 mics for 4 bones, 2 mics for 4 pets, 1 mic for additional tuba (replacing bass bone on some tunes). 2 mic drum setup, combo and bridge mic for bass, 1 piano, 1 guitar combo, 1 soloist, room/main pair. As I've done mostly classical music so far, I own and know more SDCs than typical jazz mics, but I had rented some stuff. All signals went into Nuendo and a Fostex D2424LV as a backup.

Here's the input list:
baritone sax KM184 -- MOTU 896HD 1
p Beyer Op 53 -- 2
oh Oktava 2500 -- 3
bd Oktava 219 -- 4
bass amp -- cheapo china sdc -- 5
bass bridge -- Beyer op 53 -- 6
guitar amp -- SM58 -- 7
solo -- SM58 -- 8
trps -- CMC54 -- Audient 008 (A) 1-2
altos -- Beyer 260.80 -- 3-4
tenors -- KM184 -- 5-6
flute doublings -- MBHO 604/KA200 -- 7-8
horn section M -- KM184 -- Audient 008 (B) 1
horn section S -- Schoeps CMT56 -- 2
bones -- CMC54 -- 3-4
tuba -- 604/200 -- 5
flute doubling -- 604/200 -- 6
room/main -- 2x CMC621 -- 7-8

The 184 for baritone sax turned out to be a great front-of-kit mic for the drums as the drummer played way louder during the concert than during rehearsal/sound check. Next time I'll use some hyper-cardioid there to actually record the sax and not the drums. Flute mics will also be hyper instead of 1st order cardioid for the same reasons.
I had intended to use my "secret weapon guitar amp mic", a vintage UHER M534, but it had a bad DIN connector 20 mins before show and thus was replaced by a 58 from the venue, also was used for FOH. BTW: FOH took only piano, bass, guitar, solo. Everything else is loud enough in that venue. Monitor levels were low enough not to bleed into my mics too much.
We put the piano mic BELOW the soundboard, facing upward, as the lid had to be open and we got lots of drum and cymbal bleed. In the "under the piano" position we only got BD bleed. Bass was miked with a opus 53 sdc cardioid suspended in the bridge, and another cheapo sdc in front of a small combo - the former giving wood, low end, some fingerboard noise, and lots of cymbal bleed to filter, the latter giving midrange, high end, and "dirt".
The room/main pair was 3ft spaced wide cardioids about 12 ft from the stage front, about 8ft over stage level.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

p Beyer Op 53 -- 2

Is that thing any good?

Quite interesting, thanks... Think I might have to be a bit more economical with the mics. But I guess I'll still have to buy another disk drive...

[pkautzsch]

op 53 isn't exactly high-end. But it's really lightweight. I'd much rather use a non-high-end lightweight mic in the bridge of the bass than a great-sounding heavy one which will much more affect the bass sound. The other one was leftover and since they're cheap, I don't mind using gaffer tape on them (which I would not do with a Schoeps...). Probably any mic will do in that place for the piano, which is almost as un-important as the guitar in a loud big band. For the pieces featuring the piano as a solo instrument, I have the main pair. Such pieces don't require the close mic high in the mix.

For your school big band thing: if it's a live concert, maybe just a few XY pairs? In non-concert recording, I'd set them up in a square, each section on one side, and give each horn section a stereo pair (that is 1 pair for saxes, 1 for bones, 1 for pets), and some more for the rhythm section, like...p b g oh fok. and probably have them do solos later if they're not positively sure they'll nail it in three takes.

[David Rick]

Great photos! Was the HD recorder your primary unit, or a safety for the laptop? If the latter, what recording software are you running?

David L Rick
Seventh String Recording

[pkautzsch]

HD recorder was backup to Nuendo 2 on XP. It's really nice to have it all in the DAW directly. They can get a rough mix like 15 mins after show, without me hauling a stand-alone CD recorder around.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

For your school big band thing: if it's a live concert, maybe just a few XY pairs? In non-concert recording, I'd set them up in a square, each section on one side, and give each horn section a stereo pair (that is 1 pair for saxes, 1 for bones, 1 for pets), and some more for the rhythm section, like...p b g oh fok. and probably have them do solos later if they're not positively sure they'll nail it in three takes.

It's a fairly small Bigband... And it's not live.

Sax: 2 Alto, 2 Tenor, 1 Bariton
4 Clarinets
3 Trombones
4 Trumpets
Bass, Guitar, (all presumably electric, 1 or 2), Drums, Piano.

I'll probably try to seat the winds in such a way as to use just one mic per group. C414 (got 4) or something of that kind.

Is it necessary to fully mic up the drums for this kind of thing? Or will 6 mics do
(2 OH, 2 toms, 1 snare,1 BD)?

Got a couple of good dynamic mics that should come in handy (2 M201, an SM57)...

Any further hints welcome.

[pkautzsch]

I'm not sure if 1 mic per section will work out. Yes, they did record that way in earlier days, and those records sound darn great, but they're mono after all.
A typical Big Band is 5 saxes, 3 or 4 trombones, 3 or 4 trumpets. Clarinets and flutes often are played by sax players (thus "doublings"). Usually clients seem to like a soundstage similar to a live concert, that is: Rhythm section to the left, horns from slightly left to hardish right, saxes in front of bones, pets behind bones, maybe the solo a bit leftish. That's why I'd always have at least two mics for each section (or a main mic plus spots, when they're set up as they should appear on the record).
You can do lots of nice Big Band sound with SDCs.
If the list on your website is up to date:

KM140s for saxes and bones, CK1s or C414s for pets.
1 C414 or other hyper for piano, depending on drum bleed KM140 will work too. KM150? No good in putting the mic under the soundboard when that's the only piano mic.
Maybe a pair of MK41s or a single cardioid (4011, MKH40?) as overheads. KM184 for brushed snare, and something in front of the kit (U87?) which will pick up waaayy enough BD. No Tom mics needed when the set is better than average german school drum set. I usually have at most 3 mics.
Dynamics for guitar&bass amps (they might want to hear the bass in the room, and you won't give everyone a pair of headphones, I suppose).
Where is the thing taking place? Maybe I could come over.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'm not sure if 1 mic per section will work out. Yes, they did record that way in earlier days, and those records sound darn great, but they're mono after all.

I'm not planning on mono...
But I was told I can more or less place the groups the way I want them, e.g. seated 2x2, so I can pick up a group with one mic easily. I will also have access to some kind of acoustical separation.

If the list on your website is up to date:

Only about half of that is mine. The rest belongs to my partner in Frankfurt.
My own collection is here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...02&postcount=7
(BTW, why haven't you posted yours in this thread...?) I'd like to try and manage this with 16 tracks. BTW, there will be some singers also, some of this might be overdubbed later.

1 C414 or other hyper for piano, depending on drum bleed KM140 will work too.

It appears the piano player will be absent... She'll have to overdub her part later, onto the edited versions...

No Tom mics needed when the set is better than average german school drum set. I usually have at most 3 mics.

Good to know. Can one place OHs a bit lower to pick up more of the toms?

Where is the thing taking place? Maybe I could come over.

In Bad Hersfeld... It would be nice to meet. Might have to ask my partner to come over on the Sunday (April 1st) otherwise, I have another recording to do in the evening, a Keiser Passion... Will have to spare (or borrow) a few mics for that. The rest of the setup isn't a problem, I guess.

PM or mail for more if you're interested to join. I'll cover expenses...

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I'm not planning on mono...
But I was told I can more or less place the groups the way I want them, e.g. seated 2x2, so I can pick up a group with one mic easily. I will also have access to some kind of acoustical separation.

You can of course pick up a group with one mic. But you won't be able to spread the group out between the speakers as a concert audience will hear a band.

Originally Posted by d_fu

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...02&postcount=7
(BTW, why haven't you posted yours in this thread...?) I'd like to try and manage this with 16 tracks. BTW, there will be some singers also, some of this might be overdubbed later.

Didn't post there because I missed the thread. Done it a few minutes ago.
With that choice it's getting more difficult doing stereo pairs for every section...If I'm joining, I could bring some more cardioids.

Originally Posted by d_fu

It appears the piano player will be absent... She'll have to overdub her part later, onto the edited versions...

phew. Will be difficult to have her play on the beat. But great for isolation!!!

Originally Posted by d_fu

Can one place OHs a bit lower to pick up more of the toms?

In my project it was about 6" higher than the drummer's head, sort of where Steve Remote often puts up a TLM103.

Originally Posted by d_fu

In Bad Hersfeld... It would be nice to meet. Might have to ask my partner to come over on the Sunday (April 1st) otherwise, I have another recording to do in the evening, a Keiser Passion... Will have to spare (or borrow) a few mics for that. The rest of the setup isn't a problem, I guess.

That's about 1 hr ICE from Würzburg. I can manage that, and bring some SDC cardioids. Details on Friday, I'm off to Munich right now.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

You can of course pick up a group with one mic. But you won't be able to spread the group out between the speakers as a concert audience will hear a band.

Most concert audiences will hear a monoish mix on the PA...

With that choice it's getting more difficult doing stereo pairs for every section...

I've got pairs... Two pairs of BPMs, several AKG pairs (hypers and cardioids)... But the idea of a stereo pair for 3 wind instruments appears a tad overdone..

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

If there is a PA, and if the PA is loud enough to be the primary sound source, the audience will indeed hear a monoish mix. I'm just not very sure if big bands usually play through a PA.
When I think big band, I don't think pop band, but rather think orchestra without strings playing weird music
OTOH you're right in assuming a stereo pair for 3 winds is a lot. However, one needs to think in sections when doing big bands. These sections are:
Rhythm - Horns - Solo with a sub-division of Horns into Woodwinds - Trombones - Trumpets or even Reeds - Flutes - 'bones - 'pets.

A school big band I once recorded was done with 10 channels:
2x Saxes (184)
2x Pets (MK4)
1x Bones (were only 2 players, if I remember correctly) (Oktava 2500)
2x OH (that was overkill) (MK4)
1x p (AT3035)
1x b (Oktava 219)
1x g (Uher 534)
Solos were recorded later, because they all were very excited and thus probably the whole band would have had to do like 5 takes for each solo.
This leaves you only very little control over the internal balance of each section. But if the band is balanced, it's great.
The director of that last big band I did wants more control in the mix stage, so I need to put up more mics.

You might have a look at my older thread about "Big Band Live Recording" where Steve Remote gave me some advice and an input list of his WDR Big Band live ISDN broadcast across the Atlantic.

[d_fu]

Ok, here's a sample of my recent school big band recordings...
A fairly rough mix, mostly intended for the conductor and the band to select material from the various takes.

Mic setup was as follows:

Room Mic: 2 x Neumann KM 131, 3 feet apart
Guitar and bass amps: Beyer M 201
Trumpets: Pair of C 414 B-TL (not TL-II)
Saxes: 3 to 4 AKG 460/480 w. CK 61 and CK 63 and a KM 184 on the baritone (the latter used for clarinets in other pieces)
Trombones: Sennheiser MKH 50
Piano (not in this sample): AKG 460/CK 63 or Beyer 805
OH: 2 AKG 451 with CK3 hypers.
BD: MXL 2001
Snare: BPM CR-79 (hyper)
Preamps: RME Octamic D and Soundcraft Sprit Protracker, into RME Digiface.

Trombones and Clarinets weren't doing much most of the time, they were often hardly audible (even through the spot mic), and I pointed my mics towards the better players (esp. in the case of the clarinets). No need for more than one mic.

Added some convolution reverb from Samplitude. The room was far from ideal, with a rather low ceiling...

Does this sound about right, i.e. like a big band? Suggestions for the mix welcome, this is my first foray into big band recording, really...


Daniel

[zaczac]

Hi D_Fu. It sounds like you've got the tracks you need to get a good sound from this. I'd personally take some of the reverb off, and try to make the mix sound generally a little more like a band playing acoustically. At the moment it sounds like a (well mixed) big band through a P.A. Pkautzsch's quote sums up my feelings really well (and is funny too)

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

When I think big band, I don't think pop band, but rather think orchestra without strings playing weird music

There are engineers with much more knowledge on this than me, but as someone that plays in big bands regularly, I'd definitely err on the side of natural.

[pkautzsch]

So finally I found some time to really listen to your sample.
Most quick headphone listening impressions I already sent you via e-mail are the same in my control room. Trombones are a little weak, I don't really hear them. Might be because they didn't really play? Stereo image...well, as I wrote. Not the standard, but nice, and it represents the large sax section. The bass drum could do with less rumble and a little more attack. That way you could get it on a lower level. At 0:52 it sounds a little over-compressed due to the BD - any compressor on it or is that just some mp3 artefact? Snare must not be louder, but rather a bit less to my taste. Cymbals are quite soft, try to get the snare in the same ballpark. This is all a matter of taste.

Definitely a good recording, will turn out great in the end when this is just a rough mix.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Trombones are a little weak, I don't really hear them. Might be because they didn't really play?

At times, they were practically inaudible even through their own spot mic...

Stereo image...well, as I wrote. Not the standard

I don't know much about "standard" for Big Band... Grateful for hints.

The bass drum could do with less rumble and a little more attack.

The drum itself didn't sound all that tight...

At 0:52 it sounds a little over-compressed due to the BD - any compressor on it or is that just some mp3 artefact?

Dunno, must check.

Definitely a good recording, will turn out great in the end when this is just a rough mix.

Thanks.

[pkautzsch]

As I wrote a few posts ago in this thread, a big band in concert often is set up with the rhythm section to the left, occupyind 1/4 to 1/3 of the stage width, and the horns occupying the rest. So the rhythm section might be panned leftish, the saxes/clarinets/flutes are in front of the trombones, and the trumpets are behind the trombones. Bari sax and bass trombone often seem to be at the left end of the horns, closer to the rhythm section - makes sense as they often play similar parts as the bass does.

A typical stage setup might be:
-------------------Bass----T-r-u-m-p-e-t-s
Piano ---Drums------------Trom-bon-es
----Guitar------------Bari--Altos---Tenors
------------Solo-----Cond.

I usually pan the bass&drums somewhat like 20 to 30 % left, Piano and guitar are 70 to 100% left, Bari maybe 10% or MAYBE even 20% left. As I usually record live concerts with a main pair plus (lots of) spots, I'm quite fixed to their stage setup.
I've heard other big band recordings with a very pop-ish drum panning with widespread cymbals, hi-tom 70% R, mid-tom center, lo-tom 70% L. All close-miked. Lots of artificial reverb. I've been told there are people who like that. I don't.