Upright bass nightmare

[Yiannis]

Hi guys,

today a client came up with some tracks for me to mix!
In these tracks,which is a mess if we talk about arrangement, is this Upright bass!

I cant make it sound good !!!
sounds so boomy...
would you please help me fix it?

[davedarling]

while it's not the best bass I've heard recorded, there isn't anything terrible about it.

try a little comp, a little bump at 100, and a little bump aat 2k. If you want to clear the mids, sweep an EQ around until you hear a resonant freq, and turn it down.

If this bass sounds " boomy" you may have monitor problems.

good luck - Dave Darling

[Yiannis]

thanks Dave.

What I hear is some resonant frequences,also from my headphones so I asume its not due to room resonants.

This bass was recorded with A Akg 451 on the bridge using some foam to hold it!
It was an unidirectional mic

When use say "bump" you mean descrease,right?

[tINY]

Sounds fine to me - maybe you are having trouble getting it to sit in the mix....

If you need it to jump out without getting too loud, try playing with the attack and release times on your compressor.




-tINY

[Yiannis]

Originally Posted by tINY

Sounds fine to me - maybe you are having trouble getting it to sit in the mix....

If you need it to jump out without getting too loud, try playing with the attack and release times on your compressor.




-tINY

Yes,because there are some notes that jump out.
It doesn't have definition in the mix

could someone upload a fixed version of this please so i can hear how it should sound?

[uncle duncan]

Sounds fine to me. Sometimes you have to lo cut the other instruments to allow the bass to have a space. If that doesn't work, maybe cut a little lo end on the bass and add some mids and see if the mids push it forward. With that kind of EQ, it might sound wrong by itself, but fit in the mix just fine.

[1979]

I'm not sure if the problems I had with mixing an upright are the same as yours- but I sure as hell can sympathize

I was recently given a multitrack recording in which the upright bass would make the above upright bass clip sound like platinum. The kick was not much better. Try to imagine a far worse bass than you were given, and add exessive cymbal bleed.

1st) I had to lose a lot of top on the bass because of bleed (not something that is apparent
in your situation)

2nd) I'm pretty much ****ed for options as to where the bass was going to sit, so I had to pull the ol' glue the kick and bass together and sit the bass in the mix in very sublte way. ,although I do feel like the upright is moving a little air.

3rd) From a rough mix on Ns-10s the bass translated terribly- some notes were very quiet some loud- It sounded likely a very cheap plywood intstrument, compression didn't help this much, at least not in the way it would help a vocal thats all over the place. So I brought the bass track into samplitude8 and starting sweeping from 50hz to 150hz with a tight boost (a Q of 20) until I magnified the garbage. I ended up putting two cuts with a q of 20 at 74Hz and 106 hz -this helped big time, and now the bass sounds alright through a lot of systems.

In the end I didn't end up with a great bass sound, but it worked in the mix.

I wish whoever tracked it took two ****** seconds to listen to the result of their mic choice and placement. It sucks when you have to mix a song and spend 75% of your energy hiding the mistakes. The flipside is I always learn a shit load when working on basement projects, and I'm at the bottom of the audio food chain, so I have to do my best with the work I get.

Cheers

[Joe Ferla]

There are two tricks that usally work for me to get an upright to speak through a mix. Try adding some EQ between 500Hz-800Hz. You'll have to find that sweet spot which is dependent on the key and the bass. You may find yourself adding alot at this frequency to make the bass cut through. This could also make the bass sound ugly in solo but in the soup it works. After that you may need to add some upper bass frequency and something in the 2k-5k region. Again all of these frequencies are dependent on the key and the bass. The last thing that's very usefull is panning the bass slightly left or right of center. Taking it out of the center clears it up.

Good luck,

Joe

[jhg]

The bass from the clip doesn't sound that bad. I'm assuming the bass player is the leader of the group?

To get all of the nuances of the upright bass a lot of space around it is required. I've used a 414 in foam stuffed under the tailpiece, with various sdc pointed down at the fingerboard to great results. This of course, being an upright player, with a lot of work with mixes to accentuate the bass where necessary.

Some great recordings of upright I love - Dave Holland almost anything, Keith Jarrett trio, etc. are full of space, and the bass has enough space to breathe and be heard.

Regards,

jhg

[cgarges]

Dude, you got an upright bass tip from Joe Ferla. How awesome is that?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Nu-tra]

It kinda sounds like "Super Freak" by Rick James or... uh MC Hammer lol. That bass didn't bother me much what are the other instruments? Is it a busy song?

[ericwall]

This forum has a lot on tracking but not much of how to mix upright bass. Great to see the tips so far

This could be a great thread covering one of the hardest instruments to mix IMHO.

The first example is definately not a bad recording if I may say. Very well played too with great core, intonation and feel.

If I may continue this q & a, I'm struggeling with the following:

A jazzkit with a high pitched 18" jazz-bassdrum playing the sambarythm: Boom, bo-boom, bo-boom etc

Now, three channels upright-bass playing more or less the same rythm: DI, mic 1 ( a B&K, very boomy-sounding, probably placed close to the f-hole), and mic 2 (a 87 probably three feet away or so, not boomy, pretty fullrange/flat-sounding)

So, the BD and bass are pounding along in the same territory to say the least, but the bass is more important here I think so I guess the BD has to be hidden a little underneath (?)

The performance is not stellar either. Sloppy playing without the "core" I hear in the first example, now add timing and pitch-problems... You can't polish a turd... BUT:

I have the time, energy and will to do ALL I can to make this bass sound as good as possible in the mix, except replacing or trigging basically 'cause I want to learn something.

Before I dig in to this I would like to ask you more experienced guys:

If we leave automation of eq and levels out for now; How do you approach three channels of bass? Do you ever just mute one of the mics (the boomy for instance) and concentrate on one mic and the DI? How do you pitch individual notes on two or three channels without phase-issues? Except eq/levels, how would you separate the BD and bass in samba-jazz? Panning? Could paralell comp/eq be a way to go to give the bass some of the core it's lacking?

Don't hesitate to describe the worst cases you've been handed and how you managed to get at least a decent bass sound in the end.

Best/ EW

[Joe Ferla]

Originally Posted by ericwall

This forum has a lot on tracking but not much of how to mix upright bass. Great to see the tips so far

This could be a great thread covering one of the hardest instruments to mix IMHO.

The first example is definately not a bad recording if I may say. Very well played too with great core, intonation and feel.

If I may continue this q & a, I'm struggeling with the following:

A jazzkit with a high pitched 18" jazz-bassdrum playing the sambarythm: Boom, bo-boom, bo-boom etc

Now, three channels upright-bass playing more or less the same rythm: DI, mic 1 ( a B&K, very boomy-sounding, probably placed close to the f-hole), and mic 2 (a 87 probably three feet away or so, not boomy, pretty fullrange/flat-sounding)

So, the BD and bass are pounding along in the same territory to say the least, but the bass is more important here I think so I guess the BD has to be hidden a little underneath (?)

The performance is not stellar either. Sloppy playing without the "core" I hear in the first example, now add timing and pitch-problems... You can't polish a turd... BUT:

I have the time, energy and will to do ALL I can to make this bass sound as good as possible in the mix, except replacing or trigging basically 'cause I want to learn something.

Before I dig in to this I would like to ask you more experienced guys:

If we leave automation of eq and levels out for now; How do you approach three channels of bass? Do you ever just mute one of the mics (the boomy for instance) and concentrate on one mic and the DI? How do you pitch individual notes on two or three channels without phase-issues? Except eq/levels, how would you separate the BD and bass in samba-jazz? Panning? Could paralell comp/eq be a way to go to give the bass some of the core it's lacking?

Don't hesitate to describe the worst cases you've been handed and how you managed to get at least a decent bass sound in the end.

Best/ EW

Eric,

This is about the worst case scenario other than the drummer playing a pattern on toms with mallets! Panning and frequency management are your friends here. Pan your bass slightly to one side, the bass drum slightly to the other side. I find with jazz bass drums cutting 100Hz is very helpful. You have to decide who gets the low end in the mix, it can't be more than one instrument. Bass should be the winner here. So now you have a thinned out bass drum to one side out of the way. Also the bass drum could be mixed at a lower level that the bass. Don't try to make them equal. Just because you have 3 bass tracks doesn't mean you have to use them. Choose the mic that is the cleanest. Eliminate the other mic for now. With EQ try to even it out and get rid of any boom. As I said earlier here try boosting between 500Hz-800Hz. You won't believe how helpful this is. The second source you add (DI or the second mic) shouldn't cover the full frequency response. EQ it to cover a range you're not quite getting with your main source. In some cases it may be the high end and in some it may be the bottom. This should be a filler. Pan it to the exact same place as your 1st mic. Of course there are phasing issues with more that one source but this shouldn't present too much of a problem here. If you use compression be careful with it. Too much will take attack away which in turn will make it more difficult to hear in the mix. But the right amount could be helpful. This is difficult enough with a great sounding bass and a great player. So you have you're work cut out for you. I hope this is helpful.

Good luck,

Joe

[Yiannis]

here is an update 'fixed" version of the first sample.

Here is what I did with your *help
Waves Q4= -10db *109 hz *q 100
-18db * 82 hz *q 100
A little UAD fairclild comp 1-3db
Uad Cambridge +5 db *647 hz *q 1.29
UAD Pultec +3 db *20 hz

Is it worst or better?

The second sample is the same player but with a 414 (ck2) 1.5 m from the bass.
The player is a little noisy this time.
What do you think about the second sample,is it better than the first?

thank you all

[matucha]

The first sample was ok I think, there were maybe some smaller inconsistencies caused by room modes, but nothing bad.

If you want some better advices, you should post the whole mix too, because it is more about context than about making it sound better in solo. I have to admit I don't like the c414 sample so much and the processed version is only flatter sounding and who knows if it is working better in the mix than unprocessed one. BTW UAD fairchild can't even go near my basses and kiks, steals a lot of lowend... the nearest possibility is parallel compression.

[ericdevine]

I will be tracking some upright bass this weekend, and will be trying the mic between the bridge legs trick with some SDC'S. My question is how bad would it be to use a small bodied tube mic? Would the vibration from the bass be very bad for the tube?
I am guessing this would be a bad idea, but I thought I would ask the slutz first-

[BobSchwenkler]

This bass doesn't sound overly uneven on my speakers. If you are having problems with resonant bass notes, I would try some multiband compression on those lower frequencies. If you are having trouble getting the bass to come through in the mix, you might try using the compressor to bring out a little bit of presence on it as well.

[Yiannis]

Originally Posted by BobSchwenkler

This bass doesn't sound overly uneven on my speakers. If you are having problems with resonant bass notes, I would try some multiband compression on those lower frequencies. If you are having trouble getting the bass to come through in the mix, you might try using the compressor to bring out a little bit of presence on it as well.

could you post a fixed version please?
I didn't have much luck with Multiband comp.
Only deep notch helped

[ericwall]

Originally Posted by Joe Ferla

Eric,

This is about the worst case scenario other than the drummer playing a pattern on toms with mallets! Panning and frequency management are your friends here. Pan your bass slightly to one side, the bass drum slightly to the other side. I find with jazz bass drums cutting 100Hz is very helpful. You have to decide who gets the low end in the mix, it can't be more than one instrument. Bass should be the winner here. So now you have a thinned out bass drum to one side out of the way. Also the bass drum could be mixed at a lower level that the bass. Don't try to make them equal. Just because you have 3 bass tracks doesn't mean you have to use them. Choose the mic that is the cleanest. Eliminate the other mic for now. With EQ try to even it out and get rid of any boom. As I said earlier here try boosting between 500Hz-800Hz. You won't believe how helpful this is. The second source you add (DI or the second mic) shouldn't cover the full frequency response. EQ it to cover a range you're not quite getting with your main source. In some cases it may be the high end and in some it may be the bottom. This should be a filler. Pan it to the exact same place as your 1st mic. Of course there are phasing issues with more that one source but this shouldn't present too much of a problem here. If you use compression be careful with it. Too much will take attack away which in turn will make it more difficult to hear in the mix. But the right amount could be helpful. This is difficult enough with a great sounding bass and a great player. So you have you're work cut out for you. I hope this is helpful.

Good luck,

Joe

This is why I love Gearslutz.com
Thank you!! I will try this. I feel my headache disappear already