Organ concerto recording

[d_fu]

An excerpt from an organ concerto by Francis Poulenc...
Feel free to critique. Please disregard a few playing inaccuracies here and there.

The organ sounds rather remote at times, but then it is, and some registers in the back of the organ don't seem to spread out well, which is why I actually placed an omni inside the organ. It really helped at times, where things would have otherwise been drowned.

Mics used: 2 x AKG 460 (Jim-Williams-modified) with CK62DF, fairly high up, 2 Beyer MC803 on the strings, 2 AKG 480 with CK 61 up at the organ (doubled as spots for vocal soloists), and the MTG omni (M93 capsule) in the organ. I used the preamps in my Soundcraft Sprit Protracker (into RME ADI-8 AE) and some tracks went into an RME Octamic D.

Obviously, the choir in the pic is not involved in this piece....

Daniel

[DonM]

D:
Wow - great job! It is an enormous comprimise to record organ and any other source, e.,g. Voice, Strings, etc. I love your string color very very excellent. The string spacing is a bit wide for my taste but that is your choice and I respect it. Possibly the spacing was hurt by the mp3 encode. I think the strings sound simply amazing - the room balance with the strings is perfect in my opinion.

Was this a live performance or a recording session? I'm sure you struggled with the balance between the organ and the strings - they each sound excellent and great dynamic range.

Thank you for sharing.

-D

[d_fu]

Thanks for the comment.

Originally Posted by DonM

The string spacing is a bit wide for my taste but that is your choice and I respect it.

You might be right... Will think about it. I actually reduced the string mics a bit already...

Was this a live performance or a recording session?

Live.


Daniel

[d_fu]

Any further comments?

[David.H]

Nice sound, good ambiance, nice string sound, possibly wide but very nice. I would have thought it difficult placing the main pair. Am I correct in thinking the organ and string mikes are on the same stand? Or are they seperate? The room (church) has a nice reverbe, I would have thought the room could not get much better.

[d_fu]

Thanks for the comment.

Originally Posted by David.H

Am I correct in thinking the organ and string mikes are on the same stand? Or are they seperate?

Separate stands, but practically in the same position.

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Strings are a bit wide and have that "hole in the middle", but that might be justified since the middle is where the organ sits. Very nice cello sound!
I suspect the slightly "boxy" sound of the organ in the beginning comes from the C480s on the balcony. That's how organs sound up there. Gives a feeling of "being part of the performance", though not what I suspect the audience were hearing.
Did you apply any filtering on the MTG inside the organ? Must have been a horror to place it.
(I used my DT250 phones which are really really bad-sounding. As it sounds quite good on them, it IS good.)

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I suspect the slightly "boxy" sound of the organ in the beginning comes from the C480s on the balcony. That's how organs sound up there.

It doesn't sound that much different through the main mic..

Did you apply any filtering on the MTG inside the organ? Must have been a horror to place it.

Now that you mention it... No, I didn't filter it..
And there was a very convenient place for the mic right in front of the swell flaps.
Next time I record this organ (something is planned), I'll use a pair of KM 131s inside.


Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Oh, new avatar. MKH80, nice. Tried the MKH800 two weeks ago.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Oh, new avatar.

No, first avatar here...

MKH80, nice.

Got one for € 1100 just now. Just can't afford the 800, have to live with second-hand ebay bargains... Ain't that sad..?

[pkautzsch]

Don't think I'll need the 40kHz of the 800. And...well...I don't quite understand why some people are so fond of the 800 in omni as a main pair. It's not precisely a pressure transducer, is it. Would love to try them in Blumlein, though.

[davebl@dircon.c]

Daniel, I really like the recording. I also like the wide strings, they sound just great.

What was the configureation fo the MC803 looke like a spaced pair ?

What the change to the 131's for the organ ?

Best wishes

Dave

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by davebl@dircon.c

Daniel, I really like the recording. I also like the wide strings, they sound just great. What was the configureation fo the MC803 looke like a spaced pair?

Thanks for the compliment... The 803s aren't so much meant to be a stereo setup as such, more like just a pair of spots into the strings on both sides. Didn't want to use separate stands for optical reasons. They are on a T-bar about 1 m apart.

What the change to the 131's for the organ?

Not quite sure I understand the question. I had only one mic inside this time. So far, the planned organ recording hasn't meterialised, but if and when, I'll place my two 131s inside..

Daniel

[tenor39]

I love the organ sound! Nice and big. The orchestra sounds very spread out and is lacking depth. Did you time-align your mic's in the mixdown? Is the reverb natural or artificial?

[earlgreen]

Great job. Do you record classical on a regular basis?

I hope I'm not being too forward but here goes. Well speaking as an organist, not an engineer, without being there and seeing the setup or hearing the organ live, next time I would try different placements for the main organ mics. The boxy sound could be because the mics are a bit to close to the pipes especially some of the lower facade pipes. The pipes need space.

The strings sound great, smooth and lush, but the organ sounds like it was recorded separate from the orchestra to my ears especially in the full organ parts.

When I went to Paris and played several major organs including the great organ at St. Sulpice, I recorded them using a cheap stereo mic and a Sony DAT. I was amazed how much better the sound was when I took time to sit while others played before me and find the sweet spot to set the DAT.

On most of the recordings I have with organ and orchestra, there has been a bit more of the room sound for the organ. The organ will always sound boomier (is that a word?) if recorded too close. If possible, you might want to EQ the organ a bit and place it back in the mix just a tad. If you get a chance to record it again, you also may want to do a test with the organist. Let him register the piece in several places and hear what is being recorded. Sometimes, I have changed the registration to work for a recording situation.

Also, recording with a mic inside the organ could create problems with balance. The organ, if designed well, should sound its best when everything blends and projects out of the case. The Swell division will sound softer up close but project very well through the rest of the organ, again if it is designed well.

Great location, and great job. It's nice to hear posts with classical music on this forum! Can't wait to hear more!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tenor39

I love the organ sound! Nice and big. The orchestra sounds very spread out and is lacking depth. Did you time-align your mic's in the mixdown? Is the reverb natural or artificial?

With the exception of the string spots, the mics are all time-aligned.
This church is huge, there is no need for artificial reverb...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by earlgreen

Great job. Do you record classical on a regular basis?

Yes, and I do (almost) exclusively classical/acoustic stuff.

I hope I'm not being too forward but here goes. Well speaking as an organist, not an engineer, without being there and seeing the setup or hearing the organ live, next time I would try different placements for the main organ mics.

If and when we do an organ recording for a CD, there will be no choir and no audience and more freedom for mic placement.
And there are no "main organ mics" as such, there's the AKG main pair, which is as high up as I could. I used some direct signal from the vocalists' spot mics up there in the mix.

Also, recording with a mic inside the organ could create problems with balance. The organ, if designed well, should sound its best when everything blends and projects out of the case. The Swell division will sound softer up close but project very well through the rest of the organ, again if it is designed well.

My impression is that the sound is "trapped" a bit in the space behind the organ, without really being able to project to the outside. You may some of that effect around 1.20 in the MP3. There are some organ sounds that are simply drowned completely without the internal spot, especially in the Fauré Requiem they played also (In Paradisum). I didn't want to lose any of that, hence the spot mic.

Thanks for the hints and comments, hope some further recording will take place there.

Ok, I've attached a clip of the AB main mic only... Feel free to criticize the mix...

Daniel

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by d_fu

With the exception of the string spots, the mics are all time-aligned.
This church is huge, there is no need for artificial reverb...

In my experience this is why the strings sound wide and 2-dimensional. Time-align the spots (as well as proper panning) and hear the depth and cohearance that results.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tenor39

In my experience this is why the strings sound wide and 2-dimensional. Time-align the spots (as well as proper panning) and hear the depth and cohearance that results.

You're right, it does make a bit of a difference (though not a huge one). Problem is, the main mic and the string spots are in the same position. Time alignment here is vertical only, and might create strange effects with regard to the organ's sound hitting the spots... That's why I didn't time-align them.

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by d_fu

You're right, it does make a bit of a difference (though not a huge one). Problem is, the main mic and the string spots are in the same position. Time alignment here is vertical only, and might create strange effects with regard to the organ's sound hitting the spots... That's why I didn't time-align them.

I always align with the main pair as the reference position. It really doesn't matter if it's vertical or horizontal displacement since sound waves exist in a 3-dimensional plane.

[earlgreen]

Daniel,

I do like the sound of the strings but the organ still sounds a bit muddy when more stops are used. Again, it may just be the organ. Not all pipe organs are great and not all builders are consistent.

Do you have info on the organ and church? It looks like the organ is modern. I'm an organ nut so any info would be nice.

Again, it sounds like you did the best you could, and for a live recording it's great.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by earlgreen

Do you have info on the organ and church? It looks like the organ is modern.

This is the brand-new Klais organ in the Elisabeth Church in Marburg

[earlgreen]

Nice instrument! Romantic in flavor I'm sure. I've heard the Bath organ and have a CD of it.

I appears that the organ is in its own case. If so, then the sound would be blended and focused to project straight out into the room. If the pedal pipes are divided left and right, that may be a big reason the full organ sounds a bit too dark. The mics could have picked up more pedal pipes during full organ. Also, since those lower pipes need the room to develop, that would account for lack of reverb on the organ tracks.

The thing is, the strings are very clean, the fast softer organ passages are clean, but when the fuller organ is used, that's where the problems begin.

This instrument has several harmonic reeds and flutes. They will speak strongly and will need the space of the room to help blend them all together.

Maybe the next time you record there, you could place another set of mics further back to capture more of the room in the organ tracks. This may help with balancing the strings and organ. This may also be the reason some felt the strings were to wide? The organ was to fill in the gap?

Just some thoughts.

Like I said, the recording is great. I'm sure the next time you record there, you'll find other ways of mic placement and will be able to make even better recordings.

Good luck!

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by earlgreen

[...]Maybe the next time you record there, you could place another set of mics further back to capture more of the room in the organ tracks.

Maybe... this is not my recording, but every time I've tried mics far out from an organ case I've been displeased with the result. The further out the boxier the sound IME. Granted, the churches I record in are very far from the large gothic cathedrals containing huge late 1800 romantic symphonic instruments. They are smaller churches perhaps (25-40)x(10-15)x(10-15)m containing smaller organs. Some, but not all having 32'. I now and then setup multiple pairs at different distances. Invariably the "best" pair is closer than I would have thought and the ones further out unusable. Is it really any difference in catching an organ and recording an ensemble of instruments? Should organs swim(drown) in reverb...?

L

[NorseHorse]

Bump.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Bump.

Why ?

JMM

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Why?

I was wondering, too... Maybe because of that last question "Should organs swim(drown) in reverb...?"

[NorseHorse]

Bump because it was a very interesting read/listen.

[sonare]

It was an interesting listen and read. Personally I think the problems are from the mic in the organ. I am thinking of the passage with the held organ chord with strings sawing like crazy but they are steamrolled by the organ-- and we aren't sure if it is bad balance or bad recorded balance.

This has been thrashed before but I will say it again-- putting mics inside a pipe organ (especially a Klais which has a proper case and musical integrity) is like putting mics inside a fine violin-- it may solve a problem but will create bigger ones.

So-- how to spot an instrument that should not be close miked but is playing with orchestra? use a pair of figure-8s high over the orchestra (with the orch in the null) and then get the best string sound that is possible with a main pair chosen to sound best with the room.

As for "boxey"-- that is a reasonable assumption on the part of someone not familiar with the purpose of a properly designed organ case-- which will blend and project the sound of the instrument.

Regarding boxey sound when far away from a organ in poor room-- if the room is bad the recording will be bad. Ernest Skinner-- a true genius of organ design and building -- is reputed to have said, "the most important stop on any organ is the room."

Rich

[d_fu]

Rich,

thanks for the comments. Please have a look at my posting #17, which also contains a sample of the pure AB main pair. I did try to make sure the organ spot would not overpower anything else. It was, however, strictly required for the Fauré, e.g. the "In Paradisum". Without the spot, the organ would not be have been audible alongside the choir.

While I'm no specialist for organ construction, I had a feeling that some registers were swallowed by the room a bit...

Daniel