Baroque ensemble with singer + trumpet

[XLR]

Hello to all You remote recording pro's,

I'd be really glad to get some advice on recordig a baroque ensemble,
specially hints for the microphone setup,
- but also everything else that could be important is welcome!

It's a small ensemble, but for me it's a lot of people at the same time (despite of choirs) :-)
and I have no experience with those ancient instruments.

The Ensemble:

lute/theorba
harpsicord
2 violins
2 viola da gamba
Soloists:
A singer (soprano) and a baroque trumpet as duo.

The room (if we get what we decided) will be about 15 x 20m and 5-6m high, with wooden floor and a glass front with a curtain, a little bright, but ok.

We have a good preamp (Millennia) and go to an 8-track machine.

How would You position the instruments, the soloists, and how set up the mics?

I thought about using a pair of Earthworks QTC1 for A-B,
and for spots I can use a couple of small condenser cardioids (km184's and an older pair of Schoeps) and also some U87's and related older Neumann's.

- Any idea would be great!!

Thanks to all!

XLR

[MichaelPatrick]

For good imaging in such a large group it helps to use a stereo main technique like xy, ORTF, or Blumlein. The omnis can be good for close-micing spots on some instruments (not vocals).

A spaced omni pair can be great in some situations (I use it only when I can test first) but much more risky than coincident and near-coincident stereo techniques. The main dangers are comb filtering and image bouncing/smearing.

[XLR]

Ouups!

Maybe that was the main mistake I made last time...
I just had a similar situation a few months ago, but with a smaller group.
I set up a spaced pair of omnis and some spots for the strings, and at the end I got a comb filter effect on the singer in the front (sound like singing into a tin can).
Unfortunately I had no spot for the soloist, so I couldn't really 'repair' it by using only the spots for the mix... shame over me...

Thanks for the advice!!

So how would You position the mics (and first the musicians) best?
I had the imagination that those really small condensers could fit best to the sound of these instruments. - What should I choose for a coincident pair?

And how to handle the trumpet (- a really soft one -) and the soprano?


Thanks to all!
XLR

[MichaelPatrick]

I like safety 1st and creativity 2nd. Two techniques that I know are very safe because they produce a stable, coherent image:

A 90 degree conicident XY with small capsule condensers. With wide cardis you can safely turn out 100 or 110 degrees.
A 90 degree figure-of-eight Blumlein.

Allow the musicians to set up on the stage in a way that makes them comfortable. Generally, a gentle arc is best, like an orchestra setup but smaller.

With both of these techniques you can place the main mic pair on center at a distance from the musicians so that the axis of the left mic --from the mic's perspective-- aims just to the left of the leftmost musician and the right mic axis aims just to the right of the rightmost instrument.

You should raise the main mic pair high enough so that you don't get more front musicians than back musicians. The mic should "see" both equally. 3 to 5 meters high is typically a good range.

Cardis in an XY are drier than Blumlein pattern because the backside of a Blumlein picks up hall ambience. You can move cardis back a bit more to get more ambience, but then you're narrowing the soundstage as you pull back. This is where your judgement and knowing the hall can help.

With both patterns you can put outriggers (omnis are great for this!) to the far left and far right of the stage, on the same distance line with the main stereo mics. If the main mics are cardiod, I prefer to pull the outrigger omnis back a bit to grab more of the hall and less direct sound.

After recording, mix the outriggers in just enough to widen the soundstage on the left and right sides, and to increase ambient/reverb to a pleasing level. Widening helps because all concident techniques, though coherent, produce a "boxy" sound -- that is to say, the images aren't 3 dimensional and the stage seems static or flat.

Spot mics, when mixed in, will also add new dimensions to the soundstage, making individual instruments more palpable. Always favor the main stereo pair when you mix because that's the ear's reference point for the sounstage and even the hall. Just use the outriggers and spots to enhance the main stereo pickup.

When you mix you should also delay the spot mics and outriggers to get them generally time-aligned with the main mics. The sound of spots arrives in the recorder sooner than the main pair, so the delay can help. Listen for combing and coherence. You want a full-bodied and natural sound from the spot-miked instruments.

Spot mics can be too dry. It helps to pan them so the left-right location matches their location in the stereo stage, and I like to put a touch of plate or small-room verb on them to take off the edges. Thsi way these individual images will sit properly and roundly in the mix instead of cutting through it.

Good luck!

[loranoyd]

Hello, XLR.

First of all, what you describe is not a large ensemble, even by Baroque standards. Think of how much larger an ensemble is needed for, let's say, a performance of Handel's Water Music, and you can begin to see that you are dealing with what I would consider to be a chamber ensemble. With that concept as the premise, I would opt for minimal miking (but I am a minimalist at heart anyway). I have many years experience performing Baroque music in what is now referred to as "historically informed" interpretations (and used to be called "period performance"). I would be very surprised indeed if the ensemble did not already have a preferred set-up, and I would not wish to re-seat them for the benefit of a recording. In fact, the ensembles I played in were extremely picky about their set up, and we determined our seating based on the kind of sound we wanted to project. That being said, if the ensemble you are recording does not already have a preference, I would suggest the following:

1. The two violins at the edge of the stage, left and right, facing each other. As you are looking at the stage, they would occupy the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions. The reason is most of the melody and countermelody will be in these two instruments, and they will trade phrases with each other. Having them opposite each other makes this imitative counterpoint more audible.

2. The continuo group: harpsichord, lute, theorba, and gambists should all be clumped together, since they serve one function in the ensemble. If one of the gambas is melodic, put it further from the continuo cluster, left or right. The continuo group should cluster around the harpsichord, placed at the 11 o'clock position and angled slightly, especially if the lid is being left on to help focus the sound outward. If the lid is removed, there are probably many more places to put the harpsichord, including dead center with the player's back to the audience. This position is especially common if the harpsichordist is also leading the group.

3. Trumpet next to continuo group, at 12 o'clock position. I'd tend to keep this player toward the back, since the trumpet will project far more easily than the other instruments, which are quite quiet.

4. Singer toward front, wherever she is comfortable, again to help with projection.


I've made some huge assumptions about the music in order to come up with the above seating plan. Do you know specifically what they are playing? Again, I would stress that the ensemble should already have a pretty good idea of how they wish to arrange themselves. You'll record the ensemble as a whole. They should balance themselves. You are going to try to capture their balance. That said, although I don't have much experience recording Baroque ensembles, I can report that these instruments are much quieter than their modern counterparts, so you need to keep that in mind. Baroque violins and violas da gamba have a greater tendency to sound scratchy, so keep the mics at some distance, but don't pull too far back. I'd start 10 feet out from the ensemble using a central stereo pair (ORTF, NOS, M/S). I would seriously doubt you would find the need for outriggers. I've used KM 184s in ORTF to record modern orchestra, and they can sound good on strings. I personally prefer a pair of ribbon mics in Blumlein configuration, but I would be worried about the bright room. People on this list and other lists I read complain about the KM184s making strings sound too harsh. Depends entirely on performers, room, mic distance, and preamp (Duh, I know, but it bears repeating). I don't own Schoeps, but I wish I did!! For many recordists who own them, these are the go-to mics for orchestral ensembles. Can you record a rehearsal or three? Boy, I'd love to record an ensemble like this! One last thought, since the ensemble isn't "deep" the way Michael Patrick describes in his post, I wouldn't go too high. At greater heights, I sense a loss of precision and detail, which I love about classical recordings. Up high the sound gets less distinct. I would be tempted to keep the mics low-ish, maybe six or seven feet up at most. Again, your ears will tell you.

Sorry for the long post. This thread got me longing for my early music days!

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[MichaelPatrick]

I concur entirely with Lloyd's comments. He provides a musician's perspective, and I've learned over the years that musicians who know how to record sound are to be listented to!

You should observe his recommendation about height. When writing I imagined a larger group.

I also prefer a ribbon main mic pair in Blumlein (AEA R88 is my favorite). His comments about the Schoeps sound mirror my own experience, though I use them mostly for spot duty. I really like the 41 for soloists and they like the results.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

A spaced omni pair can be great in some situations (I use it only when I can test first) but much more risky than coincident and near-coincident stereo techniques. The main dangers are comb filtering and image bouncing/smearing.

The main danger is rather in the user who is easily deceived by the impressive spaciousness spaced omnis produce and thus spaces them too wide. Then the image will have the hole in the middle (and soloists will bounce L-R when moving slightly). Comb filtering is only a problem when summing to mono or narrowing down the image with pan pots.
There are disadvantages in coincident setups, the two worst being the frequency response of gradient transducers (loss of bass) and their off-axis coloration (most of the sound will come from off-axis).

Originally Posted by XLR

I set up a spaced pair of omnis and some spots for the strings, and at the end I got a comb filter effect on the singer in the front (sound like singing into a tin can).

Maybe he was bleeding too much into one of the string spots? I'd last suspect the spaced pair being the culprit for that.

Originally Posted by XLR

And how to handle the trumpet (- a really soft one -) and the soprano?
XLR

It will probably come through very well on the main pair, but you might give it a spot mic slightly off the bell axis and about 6 ft away.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I like safety 1st and creativity 2nd. Two techniques that I know are very safe because they produce a stable, coherent image:

A 90 degree conicident XY with small capsule condensers.

With wide cardis you can safely turn out 100 or 110 degrees.
A 90 degree figure-of-eight Blumlein.

Well, I like a great recording better than a safe or creative one. No offense intended. You need the balance of those two, plus a few other factors you can't influence as easily, like, for example, the piece's quality.

Cardioids angled at 90° will always give a very narrow image when placed in front of the ensemble. An area of 270° around the mics will have no more than 18 dB level difference between the mics, and about 18 dB are needed to hear a source from only one speaker. So the setup would have to be placed somewhere in the middle of the group. Then it can sound good when adding flanks and a room pair. Good for large orchestra stuff, but not for a group of 8 or 10 musicians.
With Blumlein, you'll have 76° instead of 270°, so you need to place it farther away. These numbers, of course, are theory, and thus only rough guidelines. Relying on only numbers is a recipe for disaster.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

With both of these techniques you can place the main mic pair on center at a distance from the musicians so that the axis of the left mic --from the mic's perspective-- aims just to the left of the leftmost musician and the right mic axis aims just to the right of the rightmost instrument.

See above for correction. Again: this may apply to Blumlein, but with XY the image will be very narrow.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Cardis in an XY are drier than Blumlein pattern because the backside of a Blumlein picks up hall ambience.

Cardioids and figure-eights have the same diffuse-field distance. They can both be placed 1.4 times as far as omnis can to get the same direct/reverb ratio.
This is easily explained: A cardioid picks up less sound from behind, but more from the sides than a figure-eight. Remember: Fig-8 picks up virtually NOTHING from the side. The only difference is that reflections from the side normally come earlier than reflections from the back, and therefore the reverb will not sound the same.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Always favor the main stereo pair when you mix because that's the ear's reference point for the sounstage and even the hall. Just use the outriggers and spots to enhance the main stereo pickup. ... You want a full-bodied and natural sound from the spot-miked instruments.

Precisely. That's why you need to get the image right with the main pair.

Originally Posted by loranoyd

complain about the KM184s making strings sound too harsh. Depends entirely on performers, room, mic distance, and preamp (Duh, I know, but it bears repeating).

Especially the distance needs to be a little larger than one would do with other mics. You can put up a pair of 184s about anywhere and still get enough treble. They are similar to diffuse-field omnis. Need to be closer with Schoeps or KM84.

As to depth and image I'd try and go for three levels: Solo in front, violins and trumpet slightly (!) behind and to the sides of solo, continuo a bit back but still precise, and the overall sound not too wide. That is about how you'd actually set them up, isn't it.
What I'd put up in a good room: Pair of KM183s about 8ft high, and 6ft back, spaced 1.5 or 2 ft. MK21 could also be great here.

[leifislive]

We had a Baroque Oper (Haendel Hercules) performance with our conservatory two weeks ago.
The conservatory tonmeister recorded us with a 50cm DPA 4006 130V... I couldn't tell the 130V, but the harpsichord right in fornt of the mics sounded great...
So this might be also an option.

I agree to almost everything Peter said before (basically do a max 2ft AB), and although I like him very much, I wouldn't even dare to dream taking the Neumann, since one of the features of Baroque early music is the distinct sound of the instruments, and THE feature of every Neumann record I have made or listened is, that it sounds like Neumann, whether you like it or not.... I would be more happy with the mk21 or mk2 (probably s or h) or the mentioned DPA. Try to rent them or test them.... Alternatively the expensive Gefells, although this is hear say. But those test files on the net sound neutral to me.

I would suspect earthworks to be too noisy for a small ensemble like that, from the recordings and demo files I have heard with them. In my opinion, their noise level is equal to any measurement mic of that size, which is too much for chamber small ensembles music.

Have fun!!!! Early music can really rock!

Best
Leif

[XLR]

Dear remote recordists,

Thanks a lot,
Your comments are really great!!
I'm very happy to get such an exerienced advice, it's all very helpfull!
You all mentioned just a lot of the traps I actually stepped in during the last year...
I guess I have to read your contributions a few times :-) !

loranoyd,
thanks a lot for bringing in Your musicians perspective!

I've had the opportunity to listen to this ensemble one time, and I was a little upset that they've been "all in a clumb around the harpsicord", despite of the singer. For that reason I was asking how to place the musicians first, because I had no idea how to get that 'precise' sound (what I thought that ancient music allways is longin for) and image of this.
Now I've learned that it's all ok with this "clumb" for the continuo group,
but that I can try to separate the violins from it, to get a more lively overall impression.
That's a great idea and I hope they'll agree.

What I know about the pieces they'll play is, that in one or two of them the singer and the trumpet have those leading part - counterpart roles. I've heared one, I think it was Purcell, and it was really lovely! - Yeah, ancient music rocks :-))
For that I think, may be singer and trumpet should be not too far from each other - as a 'sub-group' - or have also opposite positions in the room. (Any idea how it could be best?)

For the microphone things I'll start a new post, it's too difficult...

Thanks again!
XLR

[XLR]

Dear remote recordists,

the most difficult question for me is still what stereo main pair to take.
XY "for safety" but boxy, spaced omnis like peter suggested, or an ORTF /NOS (perhaps a compromise?) would be best? Blumlein I never tried...
I like Peter Kautzsch's suggested setup very much, and perhaps I'll end up with it, if I can.

Dear MichalPatrick,
You just caught me with all my awfull beginners faults!!
(No - not at all - there will be more of them :-)

What I captured until now, is:
- to look for a coherent sound and image, but not to go too high because of the loss of differentiation with the quiet instruments
- not go to far because of the small group (and their 'clumbsy' positioning)
- not produce a whole in the middle of too spaced omnis, or bouncing of the soloist between L-R, or comb filter effects
- trie to get a deeper Image in layers with a front - back positioning
- take the mics with the most flat response curve, prefered small diaphragms or perhaps ribbons

And for my own safety feelings I need spots for the soloists, may be the violins on left and right, the trumpet as decribed, and I also would like to have a spot for the singer. (What would You suggest?!)

As to depth and image I'd try and go for three levels: Solo in front, violins and trumpet slightly (!) behind and to the sides of solo, continuo a bit back but still precise, and the overall sound not too wide. That is about how you'd actually set them up, isn't it.
What I'd put up in a good room: Pair of KM183s about 8ft high, and 6ft back, spaced 1.5 or 2 ft. MK21 could also be great here

Dear Peter Kautzsch,
That sounds impressingly good to me :-)

But I'll have a problem with the mics we have - nor 183's neither the suggested MK21 or DPA's...
The Schoeps wide cardis and the DPA4006 are on top of my whishlist (I just have the 130 V preamp for the DPA's), but at the moment out of reach.

- May be I have to rent something... What would You think about trying this with a rented DPA pair?

Our small diaphragms are all cardis, despite of the Earthworks.
The more neutral ones are the pair of Schoeps cardis, and those Earthworks.
Our large diaphragms are switchable to omni/figure eight (U87's, only one U89, SM69FET), but I guess they all will be to 'lame' for this kind of music.
(What does Your experience say?)

And what would You take best for the spots?

I would suspect earthworks to be too noisy for a small ensemble like that, from the recordings and demo files I have heard with them. In my opinion, their noise level is equal to any measurement mic of that size, which is too much for chamber small ensembles music.

Leif,

You are right, the Earthworks are noisy...

I recently bought the pair, with this baroque recording in mind, as an affordable alternative to the DPA's. (Without knowing about test files, and without testing, because they are not common here)
Until yesterday I only used them one time in a church, with the usual church ambient noise (breathing organ, heating and so on), and I had a good impression specially regarding their capture of the strings. Very 'realistic'.
But yesterday I played with them a little on spare tracks at a session with piano and singer. And in the silent chamber ambience you hear the noise...

I don't know whether it's too much for the chamber ensemble,
has anyone tried it? If tolerable, it could be an alternative without renting anything.

But over all I just feel much better with this project.
Thanks to all for the many good thoughts!!

And any further suggestions are appreciated!

Greetz,
XLR