Help! they want me to record a full orchestra in a gym! - Page 2

bishopthomas · 13th March 2007

I'm glad you were able to persuade them. Both parties will benefit from their decision.

pkautzsch · 13th March 2007

Whew. Exeter Cathedral! That's some nice and long reverb there.
I'd love to do Händel or Purcell in that cathedral. Where will you place them?

James Roper-Kum · 14th March 2007

Good Question
At this point it is going to depend on the orchestra and which elements they will choose to include.

The concerts that the school usually put on include a full Chamber Choir, a Trio, Wind Band, Wind Sextet, String Quartet etc. but...... I think if we attempt something like this in the cathedral then I might be hard pushed to capture a pro recording of each element of the concert.

The problem being that I would have to implement a different technique to cover each part of the programme......unless..... I could set up one full proof mic configuration that covered all angle. not sure about that though. Although one pair in a cathedral may lend to a great recording all round.

The bottom line is this.....I am in a position where I can make any type of suggestion; therefore the suggestion needs to be some type of performance that will capture the very best of the musicians and the acoustics in which they will be performing.

My initial idea was this....choose one or more (not too many) pieces of music that the majority of the orchestra is familiar with and go all out on that singular piece. No audience......loads of practice...a few run through sessions to get the mics in the right spots and bobs your uncle.

As I said....the possibilities are wide open to suggestion.....soooooo
What do you guys think

Speak soon

James

pkautzsch · 14th March 2007

It's basically impossible to record groups that differ so much as full orchestra vs. chamber choir vs. trio or wind band.
You would at least have to put up two main pairs: one for wide ensembles and one for chamber ensembles. Plus some spots.
Even recording Verdi ouverture&scene from Nabucco in the same concert as Schubert Great C Major is a horror when it's in a 4 second reverb church. I'd had to do a completely different setup for Verdi, so I just focussed on Schubert.

When they are in front of the Great Screen, the part behind the Screen will act as a looooong reverb unit which isn't really controllable because it's where most mics will point. It's easier to control reverb from the back, eg by using cardioids, than reverb coming from behind the orchestra.

James Roper-Kum · 16th March 2007

The longest true gothic vault in the world!

James Roper-Kum · 16th March 2007

Check out the organ!

RichS · 16th March 2007

If they let you work this as a "studio" session with no audience, may I suggest the larger ensembles out in front of the rood screen and the smaller, more intimate groups up in the choir with any instrumentalists on the floor between the stalls.

That should automatically give you a type of sound/reverb that's more appropriate to each ensemble.

James Roper-Kum · 18th March 2007

Hopefully it will be a studio session.
Point taken.

The idea of small instruments groups in the choir has its charm. I'm imagining X/Y type arrangement cardioids, high up and back towards the screen to loose a bit of the massive R/T.

I have started another post regarding recording in this and other cathedrals.

So for all those following this post you can continue it there.
Sorry its turned into a bit of a blog

Cheers

James

James Roper-Kum · 7th February 2008

Its still going on. An I have got myself a helper too.

It wont be run as a studio session unfortunately but there will be rehearsal time.

I'll let you know more about the specifics of the groups and the mics i'll be able to get hold of in due course.

Watch (and hear) this space!

JK

DCtoDaylight · 7th February 2008

Sounds like a great project - be sure to take some photos!

It might be useful to take a small handheld recorder and grab a minute or so of material from a bunch of different locations. Sometimes you can surprise yourself by discovering a "sweet spot" this way, and because it's so quick and easy, you can experiment in ways that would be difficult with a "real" setup.

You don't even need a high-grade recorder - even a digital dictation recorder (e.g., the little Olympus ones they sell at Radio Shack) in "best" mode will allow a first-order comparison of locations, and let you select promising ones to try with your full kit.

boojum · 7th February 2008

This has been a good thread for the likes of me, who is just new at this. I have been lucky in the one classical gig I have had in that the conductor gave me a free hand in mic placement. I went for A-B behind and about 3 meters above the conductor aimed down into the chorus so I could pick up front to back row and the small orchestra.

Were I to do it again I would have used Williams' techniques on configuring mics. He gets me close, really close to where I should be. I am attaching the link for info. Perhaps some others can profit form his research: http://www.rycote.com/assets/documen...nic%20Zoom.pdf

ahjteam · 8th February 2008

Quote:

I have found out from the conductor that the soloists will all be positiioned within the center of the orchestra and the brass and wind sections will be placed at the rear, with strings distributed through a central arc with piano to the left and percussion to the right. (Agggghhhh!)

Something like this?

How about micing them up with more mics like I showed in the picture with the blue stripes? They wont be that visible if you use black mics. Also using something like boundary mic for piano can help alot with the hiding process

mixerguy · 8th February 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by taturana

try processing it with (one or more) an expander or multiband comp/exp or noise removal or even a de-esser (it will need some work though..) to reduce the ambiance...

something like waves LinearMultiBand is what i would reach for as far as plugins... ......

ahhhhhh in my opinion - all those suggestions would be the ABSOLUTE LAST thing that I would do for that situation.... ever.

ymmv

James Roper-Kum · 13th February 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

Sounds like a great project - be sure to take some photos!

It might be useful to take a small handheld recorder and grab a minute or so of material from a bunch of different locations..

Great idea!

Quote:

How about micing them up with more mics like I showed in the picture with the blue stripes? They wont be that visible if you use black mics. Also using something like boundary mic for piano can help alot with the hiding process

Yeah. I think the session is going to be along this sort of line.

Some serious balancing iof each individual group in a seriously short amount of time. Good job I have a mate on hand.

James Roper-Kum · 13th February 2008

Just to say that although we are going for a big recording in the Cathedral I still went ahead and recorded the orchestra in the gym and it didn't come out that bad.

In the end I went for a single x/y configuration, 90 degrees, about 10 feet in the air on a big K&M stand for the orchestral recordings and .......god....many other positions for all the other groups....Choir, quartet, jazz band etc.

I was able to move the stand around in between each performance which gave me great experience in balancing VISUALLY. Obviously not the best practice but educational non-the-less.

Stick to the 3 to 1 rule and you are pretty much in the ball park to coin a phrase.

I mainly did it to test the logistics of recording such an event.

What I learn't was this.

-go to rehearsals and try to influence musical directors to play music appropriate for the acoustic space
-spot mic/mic sections of awkwardly placed instruments/groups (you dont have to use the material later but at least you have the choice)
-Balance, balance, balance......balance
-dont expect to get a well balanced recording at a concert unless you can ensure that the performers are going to be in exactly the same positions they rehearsed in.
-Take lots of mics, lots of stands, and lots of cables....and a mate.

cheers

JK

mohthom · 13th February 2008

I've played in orchestras now for close to a decade.

My response . . . trust them to balance themselves. Why make all that work for yourself putting spots on every section? Wouldn't just a couple of fine pairs, well placed, do far better in this instance?

The only time I ever spotmic orchestras is when there's (concerto) soloists. As soon as you fall into the trap of relying on spotmiking for the bulk of your mix, the sound quickly becomes far less natural. If you want to add spots to add clarity (particularly at the extremes of the frequency ranges) then that seems OK (ish), but your main pair looks too way too thin otherwise (though I accept that your diagram may be inaccurate - it looks like there's a spread of 45 degrees!). Also bear in mind that cardioids in this position (particularly) will be relatively poor for the basses (assuming they're in the 'normal' position) because of proximity rolloff. A pair of spaced omnis would capture everything nicely . . .

On an aside - are you connected to Exeter Uni? They have a small amount of kit that you may find useful.

I find it much more productive to get a sound that I like and record it rather than recording sections and trying to mash it together into a 'usable' recording later on. Time spent rehearsing is time taken off editing and mixing.

Who is it you're working with? I've some friends in Exeter!

MohThoM

James Roper-Kum · 7th March 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by mohthom

I've played in orchestras now for close to a decade.

Who is it you're working with? I've some friends in Exeter!

MohThoM

Hi

Hopefully I will be working with an ex BBC recordist by the name Dudley Houlden.

I know the guys down at Depot X too. In fact I should ask those guys if they would be interested in providing some kit.

In reply to your suggestion of spaced omnis; check out the attached plan of the cathedral and where the orchestra will be placed.

How far apart and how high do you think as a starting point.

The content is going to be extremely diverse and I am not going to run around re-configuring between tunes (much) so I want a position that will almost lend itself to every performance.

I think I will spot mic the piano and any soloists too.

Cheers

James

_barnee · 9th August 2009

Hey James,

I've been reading this thread and found it to be very interesting.
What are the news?
Would love to have a listen to some clips of this rec.

Let us know.

thx.

Plush · 9th August 2009

Since they are not serious about he result, it does not matter at all what you do.

Just get paid and leave.

13th March 2007	#32
pkautzsch Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 1,521	Whew. Exeter Cathedral! That's some nice and long reverb there. I'd love to do Händel or Purcell in that cathedral. Where will you place them? __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

16th March 2007	#37
RichS Gear maniac Joined: May 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 259	If they let you work this as a "studio" session with no audience, may I suggest the larger ensembles out in front of the rood screen and the smaller, more intimate groups up in the choir with any instrumentalists on the floor between the stalls. That should automatically give you a type of sound/reverb that's more appropriate to each ensemble. __________________ - After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. -- Spock

7th February 2008	#39
James Roper-Kum Gear nut Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Exeter Devon UK Posts: 87 Thread Starter	UPDATE! Exeter Cathedral Recording Its still going on. An I have got myself a helper too. It wont be run as a studio session unfortunately but there will be rehearsal time. I'll let you know more about the specifics of the groups and the mics i'll be able to get hold of in due course. Watch (and hear) this space! JK

7th February 2008	#41
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,311 1 Review written	This has been a good thread for the likes of me, who is just new at this. I have been lucky in the one classical gig I have had in that the conductor gave me a free hand in mic placement. I went for A-B behind and about 3 meters above the conductor aimed down into the chorus so I could pick up front to back row and the small orchestra. Were I to do it again I would have used Williams' techniques on configuring mics. He gets me close, really close to where I should be. I am attaching the link for info. Perhaps some others can profit form his research: http://www.rycote.com/assets/documen...nic%20Zoom.pdf __________________ Nov schmoz ka pop.

13th February 2008	#45
James Roper-Kum Gear nut Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Exeter Devon UK Posts: 87 Thread Starter	I did the recording in the gym as a test run Just to say that although we are going for a big recording in the Cathedral I still went ahead and recorded the orchestra in the gym and it didn't come out that bad. In the end I went for a single x/y configuration, 90 degrees, about 10 feet in the air on a big K&M stand for the orchestral recordings and .......god....many other positions for all the other groups....Choir, quartet, jazz band etc. I was able to move the stand around in between each performance which gave me great experience in balancing VISUALLY. Obviously not the best practice but educational non-the-less. Stick to the 3 to 1 rule and you are pretty much in the ball park to coin a phrase. I mainly did it to test the logistics of recording such an event. What I learn't was this. -go to rehearsals and try to influence musical directors to play music appropriate for the acoustic space -spot mic/mic sections of awkwardly placed instruments/groups (you dont have to use the material later but at least you have the choice) -Balance, balance, balance......balance -dont expect to get a well balanced recording at a concert unless you can ensure that the performers are going to be in exactly the same positions they rehearsed in. -Take lots of mics, lots of stands, and lots of cables....and a mate. cheers JK

13th March 2007	#31
bishopthomas Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,565	I'm glad you were able to persuade them. Both parties will benefit from their decision.

14th March 2007	#33
James Roper-Kum Gear nut Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Exeter Devon UK Posts: 87 Thread Starter	Good Question At this point it is going to depend on the orchestra and which elements they will choose to include. The concerts that the school usually put on include a full Chamber Choir, a Trio, Wind Band, Wind Sextet, String Quartet etc. but...... I think if we attempt something like this in the cathedral then I might be hard pushed to capture a pro recording of each element of the concert. The problem being that I would have to implement a different technique to cover each part of the programme......unless..... I could set up one full proof mic configuration that covered all angle. not sure about that though. Although one pair in a cathedral may lend to a great recording all round. The bottom line is this.....I am in a position where I can make any type of suggestion; therefore the suggestion needs to be some type of performance that will capture the very best of the musicians and the acoustics in which they will be performing. My initial idea was this....choose one or more (not too many) pieces of music that the majority of the orchestra is familiar with and go all out on that singular piece. No audience......loads of practice...a few run through sessions to get the mics in the right spots and bobs your uncle. As I said....the possibilities are wide open to suggestion.....soooooo What do you guys think Speak soon James

18th March 2007	#38
James Roper-Kum Gear nut Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Exeter Devon UK Posts: 87 Thread Starter	Hopefully it will be a studio session. Point taken. The idea of small instruments groups in the choir has its charm. I'm imagining X/Y type arrangement cardioids, high up and back towards the screen to loose a bit of the massive R/T. I have started another post regarding recording in this and other cathedrals. So for all those following this post you can continue it there. Sorry its turned into a bit of a blog Cheers James

7th February 2008	#40
DCtoDaylight Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 603	Sounds like a great project - be sure to take some photos! It might be useful to take a small handheld recorder and grab a minute or so of material from a bunch of different locations. Sometimes you can surprise yourself by discovering a "sweet spot" this way, and because it's so quick and easy, you can experiment in ways that would be difficult with a "real" setup. You don't even need a high-grade recorder - even a digital dictation recorder (e.g., the little Olympus ones they sell at Radio Shack) in "best" mode will allow a first-order comparison of locations, and let you select promising ones to try with your full kit.

13th February 2008	#46
mohthom Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 638	I've played in orchestras now for close to a decade. My response . . . trust them to balance themselves. Why make all that work for yourself putting spots on every section? Wouldn't just a couple of fine pairs, well placed, do far better in this instance? The only time I ever spotmic orchestras is when there's (concerto) soloists. As soon as you fall into the trap of relying on spotmiking for the bulk of your mix, the sound quickly becomes far less natural. If you want to add spots to add clarity (particularly at the extremes of the frequency ranges) then that seems OK (ish), but your main pair looks too way too thin otherwise (though I accept that your diagram may be inaccurate - it looks like there's a spread of 45 degrees!). Also bear in mind that cardioids in this position (particularly) will be relatively poor for the basses (assuming they're in the 'normal' position) because of proximity rolloff. A pair of spaced omnis would capture everything nicely . . . On an aside - are you connected to Exeter Uni? They have a small amount of kit that you may find useful. I find it much more productive to get a sound that I like and record it rather than recording sections and trying to mash it together into a 'usable' recording later on. Time spent rehearsing is time taken off editing and mixing. Who is it you're working with? I've some friends in Exeter! MohThoM __________________

9th August 2009	#48
_barnee Gear maniac Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 253	Hey James, I've been reading this thread and found it to be very interesting. What are the news? Would love to have a listen to some clips of this rec. Let us know. thx.

9th August 2009	#49
Plush Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: EARS/Chicago Posts: 4,275 2 Reviews written	Since they are not serious about he result, it does not matter at all what you do. Just get paid and leave.

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