Recording Horn Section..

[heyman]

I wil be recording a horn section coming up..

Alto, Tenor and trombone..

I have never recorded 3 at once before.. I would like to get them all done at the same time.
Mics to choose from

3 Sm57's
3 Senn 421's
or 2 Royer 122's ..

I like the sound of the Royers on Brass, but I only have 2 mics, what would you do, record all three thru one Royer? All 3 thru 2 royers?

Advice would be helpfull...

[BlueRadio]

Keep the trombone centered for good bass coherence. Other than that, I guess it really depends on the mix. I'm sure that the Royers would work beautifully at a distance. Why not put up a few 421s as 'close safety' mics?

[mds]

Depending on the room, doing blumlien with the Royers should offer an excellent sound...

[heyman]

Room sucks.. 12 by 10 with 8 foot ceiling.. But it has some bass traps and sound absorbers.
If I did Blumlein, how would you pan them, far left and right?

[Han]

I always record brass instruments with two mics to two tracks. Ribbons work great on both horns and winds, so I would use a 421 and a 57 on T-bone and a 421 and a ribbon on each of the the saxes, each mic to its own track of course so you can blend them in the mix.

Remember the 3 to 1 rule, put the players not too close to eachother.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by BlueRadio

Keep the trombone centered for good bass coherence. Other than that, I guess it really depends on the mix. I'm sure that the Royers would work beautifully at a distance. Why not put up a few 421s as 'close safety' mics?

I agree: 122's in Blumlein and spot mics for each of them - I'd go with the 421's over the 57's.

Other than that, 122 each on bone and alto, and the tenor gets the 421, reason being alto often needs the girth a ribbon gives, and tenor rarely sounds too thin thru any mic (player dependent!)

Let us know how it goes...

[heyman]

As always guys, much appreciation.. one more question... Lets say I did Blumlein with the 122's and did an up close miking with the 421's..

1) How far away would the players be standing from one another?

2) how far away would you put the Horns from the Royers?

3) How would you pan the Royers and the Senn's in the mix...

Thanks..

[ewillo]

what style of music? what are the horns going to be doing in the track??? If it's a jazz piece, or the horn section is going to be treated like a background pad I'll usually record it stereo, but if you may need control over them seperately, you may want to set up 3 mics. Royers for the sax's and the 421 for the bone. I personally, since i mostly record to pro tools where tracks aren't an issue, would rather record the 3 close and blend them in 'tools

[heyman]

Ska Band.. (ala mighty bosstones)
I want to try the Blumlein with the Royers and close mic each one with the senn's


See my previous post, can you answer those 3 questions?

[heyman]

bump..

[ewillo]

1) How far away would the players be standing from one another?
about a yard apart

2) how far away would you put the Horns from the Royers?
as far as you can to catch more ambience but yet minimize phasing w/the Senns..

3) How would you pan the Royers and the Senn's in the mix...
That really depends on the rest of the material in the song, but I'd probably start with:

Senns:match the panning to how you have them arranged in the live room to match the royers
Royers: start hard panned left and right and work your way in if you need too..

if your in pro tools and have it, i love using the crane song phoenix on horns...
Thanks..[/QUOTE]

[heyman]

Thanks ewillo..

[Bluzzi]

I thought I'd post here instead of starting another identical thread.

I'll be doing a brass section this saturday and have the following mikes available for them.

2 AT4047
2 421
1 441
1 RE20
1 SM57
1 SM58
1 D112
1 ATM450
1 e609
1 Luna

also a few AKG C418 (small clip mikes used by horns live sometimes).

My ears are saying try the AT4047s about 6 to 8 feet away. The room is 15' by 22' by slopping ceiling (14' to 8'). Just line up the section for balance and go. The 4047s have a smooth top end that I really love (bought one from reading all the Gearslutz praises then when I got had to get another!).

Do you think I should close mike as well? Its a Latin/Funk/Soul style band. Musicians are not the best (heard a practice last year and was not impressed. Apparently they are tighter now).

[pkautzsch]

Good musicians can balance themselves.
That means, if they're not good, you'll probably have to do some balancing for them. Thus spot miking.
If you told us how many of what instrument there are, we could give you hints as to which mic for whom.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by heyman

As always guys, much appreciation.. one more question... Lets say I did Blumlein with the 122's and did an up close miking with the 421's..

1) How far away would the players be standing from one another?

2) how far away would you put the Horns from the Royers?

3) How would you pan the Royers and the Senn's in the mix...

Thanks..

I'd have them stand in a line, a several feet apart, and mic each instrument to it's own track. I'd use the Royer on the trombone and the 421s on the saxes, semi-close miced (within a foot or two). Forget the room. YMMV

-R

[cajonezzz]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I'd have them stand in a line, a several feet apart, and mic each instrument to it's own track. I'd use the Royer on the trombone and the 421s on the saxes, semi-close miced (within a foot or two). Forget the room. YMMV

-R

I'd do the same, but maybe take some time to shoot out all mics on all horns. I've had good and bad experiences with Roy's on Trumpet AND sax. I"d reach for 421 for Tbone, and also consider semi close micing, with gobo's between the cats in a row.

I've also had luck with a couple sections ( they were wicked tight and balanced) with stereo micing in a medium'ish room. ( great sounding room )

really experiment for a bit if you can, in the track.

Fun stuff if they can play,intune, and not drag.

[Bluzzi]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Good musicians can balance themselves.
That means, if they're not good, you'll probably have to do some balancing for them. Thus spot miking.
If you told us how many of what instrument there are, we could give you hints as to which mic for whom.

These guys aren't bad but not great either. Sorry I forgot to put the lineup. Its Trumpet, Tenor Sax and Alto Sax.

Thanks

jim

[swankdoc]

If the room sounds bad, I personally wouldnt use a blumlein; you're gonnna get a lot of the room. also a blumlein can lack center definition....which might be OK in the mix, but might also be a waste.
You can set up an MS. Let them play a few hits to get the balance correct in the mix, moving the players forward or back away from the mics.
Then once you have the stereo mix you like, you can spot mic them if you want a little extra reassurance.

Alternatively, horn guys really like playing elbow to elbow. They really like to hear each other for their pitch. if you get them too isolated, the section might get sterile and poorly intonated. A lot of the old pics had the horn guys all arched around a single mic, and those old sections sounded pretty good.

If you have an extra track or two, dont forget to throw up a room or distant mic in a weird spot. You never know when that room mic gives that little extra adhesion vibe you're looking for.

[SurfingMusicMan]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I'd have them stand in a line, a several feet apart, and mic each instrument to it's own track.-R

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Forget the room.-R

For ska, I agree absolutely.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

I maybe take some time to shoot out all mics on all horns.

I wouldn't plan on being able to spend much time experimenting with different mics. Midway in the session on take 600 when they're complaining about blowing their chops out you don't want to be blamed because you wasted time up front because you didn't know which mic to use. If you're going to experiment, I suggest you do it quickly and invisibly. Horn players can be incredibly unforgiving (often for good reasons).

I also wouldn't worry too much about baffles, if they're six feet or so apart.

The one time I tried a Royer on sax I didn't like it, but they seem to be made for brass.

-R

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by mds

Depending on the room, doing blumlien with the Royers should offer an excellent sound...

if they play dynamically correct..unfortunately most horn sections don't ..

U87's on saxes..47 on bone

[Improv]

I'd go 122's on the Bone and Tenor, 421 on the sax, and perhaps a spaced pair of 57's on the whole group? Not ideal, but may work surpisingly well in a small room, I bet. None of those mics will reach out very far.... should be a nice tight sound.

[The Byre]

My personal choice

1st choice. 441 crossed as coincident pair or spread out L R.

2nd. 421 spread out.

[SeanG]

Originally Posted by heyman

I wil be recording a horn section coming up..

Alto, Tenor and trombone..

I have never recorded 3 at once before.. I would like to get them all done at the same time.
Mics to choose from

3 Sm57's
3 Senn 421's
or 2 Royer 122's ..

I like the sound of the Royers on Brass, but I only have 2 mics, what would you do, record all three thru one Royer? All 3 thru 2 royers?

Advice would be helpfull...

Heyman

I would go with the 122 on alto, an SM57 on tenor, and an 421 on trombone, use the other 122 with an 421 for M/S config for the room.thumbsup

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Bluzzi

These guys aren't bad but not great either. Sorry I forgot to put the lineup. Its Trumpet, Tenor Sax and Alto Sax.

Thanks

jim

I could imagine the 441 for tenor, and maybe I'd try trumpet and alto with 421.
Others have been reported to use the RE20 for saxes. Wouldn't necessarily use the 57 or 58.

[Bluzzi]

Thanks to everyone for the tips.

jim