Chistina Aguilera was the REAL DEAL at the Grammys!

[henryrobinett]

Well I'm not trying to put anyone down. I'm being as honest as I can. I do not get it. It's like theres a blue screen up there and some people can't see it. There's a child crying over there but some people can't feel the pain in that child. I do not get it. I do not understand this. Non comprehension. Sure I can understand how it may feel like I'm putting people down who cannot perceive emotion. But I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. What I'm hearing is people saying they don't feel a thing. That's what has me stymied. I don't understand how that can be. Even in music I intensely dislike I can still FEEL it.

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well I'm not trying to put anyone down. I'm being as honest as I can. I do not get it. It's like theres a blue screen up there and some people can't see it. There's a child crying over there but some people can't feel the pain in that child. I do not get it. I do not understand this. Non comprehension. Sure I can understand how it may feel like I'm putting people down who cannot perceive emotion. But I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. What I'm hearing is people saying they don't feel a thing. That's what has me stymied. I don't understand how that can be. Even in music I intensely dislike I can still FEEL it.

Henry, When I read this post, this line stands out: "But I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion."

Are you saying this in the same sense as 'But I don't understand how someone cannot feel the same emotion that I feel'?

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

Henry, When I read this post, this line stands out: "But I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion."

Are you saying this in the same sense as 'But I don't understand how someone cannot feel the same emotion that I feel'?

No! Everyone feels their own emotion. What I'm saying is what I think what I said. I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion. It has been said over and over that some people feel NOTHING. I don't understand this. Hyperbole on the posters part? Maybe. Man, I don't know how not to feel. A bum standing in front of me I can feel. And there are at least two things to feel. Me and my emotions and his. Whether they're his or what I presume or would guess would be his is another question.

But I've just realized that when people say they don't feel somebody, as an artist, I don't know what that means. Maybe they don't feel AS GREAT. powerful or similar to X person who they really like and admire. But not to feel is nuts, to me. I'm not saying they're nuts. I'm sating this notion is nuts because it's so very, very foreign to me.

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

No! Everyone feels their own emotion. What I'm saying is what I think what I said. I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion. It has been said over and over that some people feel NOTHING. I don't understand this. Hyperbole on the posters part? Maybe. Man, I don't know how not to feel. A bum standing in front of me I can feel. And there are at least two things to feel. Me and my emotions and his. Whether they're his or what I presume or would guess would be his is another question.

But I've just realized that when people say they don't feel somebody, as an artist, I don't know what that means. Maybe they don't feel SA GREAT as X person who they really like. But not to feel is nuts, to me. I'm not saying they're nuts. I'm sating this notion is nuts because it's so very, very foreign to me.

I get that. I can't speak for others, but I can tell you that when I watch her perform, once the distractions begin (vocal calistentics, arms visually indicating where the note is on the scale, rushed delivery of lyrics I'd prefer to hear given more space, nuance, something) I lose interest in her performance. Once that happens I admit, she's probably lost my attention. But you know, I'll still watch her next time, hoping to hear something I like, something different than what I expect.

BTW, I thought your Al DiMeola analogy was spot on. Unfortunately it pretty much describes how I feel about Ms. Christina.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well I'm not trying to put anyone down. I'm being as honest as I can. I do not get it. It's like theres a blue screen up there and some people can't see it. There's a child crying over there but some people can't feel the pain in that child. I do not get it. I do not understand this. Non comprehension. Sure I can understand how it may feel like I'm putting people down who cannot perceive emotion. But I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. What I'm hearing is people saying they don't feel a thing. That's what has me stymied. I don't understand how that can be. Even in music I intensely dislike I can still FEEL it.

So what you're saying essentially is, you can't understand why everyone else doesn't interpret or process things exactly as you do. Pretty egocentric if you ask me.

I respect and accept the fact that you get something out of her performance that I don't. Sad that you are unable to accept the converse.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I don't understand how someone cannot feel emotion.

The part you're not getting is that what you perceive from her as REAL emotion, others perceive as MANUFACTURED emotion, in other words there is something there that rings false. You can sit here and argue till you're blue in the face that the emotion you're perceiving is real. And guess what? TO YOU IT IS. TO OTHERS IT IS NOT. Why is it so hard for you to accept that?

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

So what you're saying essentially is, you can't understand why everyone else doesn't interpret or process things exactly as you do. Pretty egocentric if you ask me.

I respect and accept the fact that you get something out of her performance that I don't. Sad that you are unable to accept the converse.

No! That's exactly what I'm NOT saying. Everyone feels what they feel, the way they feel it. I think KingDaddyO understands what I'm saying. Maybe I'm wrong. Listen, I've already said I'm egotistical. But I'm not ego-CENTRIC. But can we dispense with the putdowns and please? Can we? Is it possible?

I'm saying I really, really believe emotion is present in CA's performance. Whether it connects is another issue. What some others are saying is that it's not even there. That's what I don't understand. They don't have to agree with any points about good, bad or indifferent. To me it's like saying there's an airplane in the driveway and only 15 people can see it. Everyone might have their perceptions about that airplane. But it's there.

With the DiMeola example I gave. I'm glad we found some agreement KingDaddyO! To me, back to my 'egocentrisim," is that I don't thnik DiMeola actually played with emotion, for the most part, at least in his early days. He played with speed. That was the entire focus. What you hear is the same thing in CA, also being put off by her histrionics and physical gyrations.

One distinction is I think emotion is REAL. I don't think it's all subjective. I think it can be registered. It's an energy wave that goes up and down scale. People can interpret emotions different. People have subjective relationships in their own head over emotions. But anyone who screams is expessing emotion. Anyone who crys is expressing emotion at a different wavelength. Laughter, even boredom. But to say it's not there is my hang up. I'm not talking of quality of emotion. Or affinity for that emotion. Even with the sound off you can see the emotion. With the picture off I'd bet one could perceive emotion.

But I'm probably all wrong and egocentric and an asshole, complete and total.

[KingDaddyO]

Man, I'll tell you all ... as much fun and informative as this is ...

It'd be much more slammin' to debate this (and other exciting topics) with y'all in person ... over a few chillies. Henry, the first rounds on me.

[Sounds Great]

Hmm, I am a big fan of Chick Corea's 'Return To Forever', and Al DiMeola kicks ass on the 'Romantic Warrior' record. Love it!

Al is just oozing emotion on that one, can't you feel it Henry?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_Warrior

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Hmm, I am a big fan of Chick Corea's 'Return To Forever', and Al DiMeola kicks ass on the 'Romantic Warrior' record. Love it!

That is an impressive album. My favorite is 'Hymn to the Seventh Galaxy' w/ Bill Conners on git fiddle.

[grahluk]

To compare apples to apples. What was CA's biggest hit to date? Shame me for being aware of it but wasn't it that song "Beautiful"? Even many folks who dislike her or her ilk could say "you know, I like that song". Why? Well, my take is; she connected with the song. It sounded heartfelt, not just full of heart. It seems the subject was within her experience as a young woman. It all worked. Now the other bit she does? It's tryin' to be church but comes off as Star Search. No doubt she puts all her skill and emotion to it but it only shows what she has to bring to the table. An extremely talented young woman who's been on the talent show and entertainment circuit her whole life. My previous post about her running into some tragedy in life improving her artistry was only half joking. I wouldn't wish hardship on anyone and hopefully she never finds the expereinces that can make the pain or joyfull release of it authentic. But there's a reason Billy Holiday is still such a compelling voice where the pop divas have been in steady rotation since. Now there's some Strange Fruit for Xtina's apples.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

Man, I'll tell you all ... as much fun and informative as this is ...

It'd be much more slammin' to debate this (and other exciting topics) with y'all in person ... over a few chillies. Henry, the first rounds on me.

Count me in

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Hmm, I am a big fan of Chick Corea's 'Return To Forever', and Al DiMeola kicks ass on the 'Romantic Warrior' record. Love it!

Al is just oozing emotion on that one, can't you feel it Henry?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_Warrior

Hm LOL. Well you got me there. I don't feel a lot of emotion with Al. But the's playing great nonetheless. The writing is supurb. I'm a huge Chick Corea fan. I also know him pretty well.

I too preferred Bill Conners playing with RTF. He played much more emotionally, although less technically. But that Hymm of the Seventh Galaxy was about as sloppy as you can get. Great stuff though, IMO.

[creegstor]

Originally Posted by grahluk

To compare apples to apples. What was CA's biggest hit to date? Shame me for being aware of it but wasn't it that song "Beautiful"? Even many folks who dislike her or her ilk could say "you know, I like that song". Why? Well, my take is; she connected with the song. It sounded heartfelt, not just full of heart. It seems the subject was within her experience as a young woman. It all worked. Now the other bit she does? It's tryin' to be church but comes off as Star Search. No doubt she puts all her skill and emotion to it but it only shows what she has to bring to the table. An extremely talented young woman who's been on the talent show and entertainment circuit her whole life. My previous post about her running into some tragedy in life improving her artistry was only half joking. I wouldn't wish hardship on anyone and hopefully she never finds the expereinces that can make the pain or joyfull release of it authentic. But there's a reason Billy Holiday is still such a compelling voice where the pop divas have been in steady rotation since. Now there's some Strange Fruit for Xtina's apples.

Great post. As critical as I am of Xtina, even I'll concede that there were small signs of real life and honesty on "Beautiful'. But what Holiday had cannot be learned, and if Xtina was shot, raped, stabbed and survived a nuclear holocaust she still could never have that depth. The purity of musicality is just not there regardless of experience. Btw, I heard a remix of Speak Low the other day (with modern instrumentation set to Billie's voice) and it was beyond fabulous. Insanely great singer.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by grahluk

But there's a reason Billy Holiday is still such a compelling voice where the pop divas have been in steady rotation since. Now there's some Strange Fruit for Xtina's apples.

Strange Fruit was a phenomenal tune and her voice just made it that more eerie. But I don't see where a person has to suffer greatly to produce great art. I think it's more of a public myth, urban legend thing. I think sometimes it helps the audience connect with the artist knowing something about them, that they suffered so. Then they can go, "Oh yeah! I can feel that pain and sorrow they're singing about."

Sometimes I think too much emotion can actually get in the way of a performance. And I think some of you might be eluding to this. I'm still grabbing at straws. You take Billie Holiday, who sings of Strange Fruit dangling from the poplar trees. She's not pounding you with it, like Christina might. She's understated in her emotional delivery. She lets you, the listener, provide the keys of your own emotion to the table.

Emo is all emotion and most of that, many here would say, is crap. Sex Pistols were just one emotional rant after another. And because, mainly, those guys weren't very sophisticated, it came off one sided. Sometimes brilliant, but definitely not enough nuance! But emotional it was. Derek Baily can be all brain and very little emotion. One can still value his music greatly, but just there's very little to contemplate emotionally. That's OK. At least from what I've heard.

[creegstor]

It's funny Henry. I think the so-called 'emotion' in emo is rich kids' petulant self-pity. That's not emotion. It's merely designer people with designer problems. A pared down version of a real human wailing about neuroses that they've been taught to have by drug companies and shrinks. Nothing real about it.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by creegstor

It's funny Henry. I think the so-called 'emotion' in emo is rich kids' petulant self-pity. That's not emotion. It's merely designer people with designer problems. A pared down version of a real human wailing about neuroses that they've been taught to have by drug companies and shrinks. Nothing real about it.

Well screw the drug companies and shrinks! I'm not sure I'd know emo if it bit me in the ass.

Yeah, but even "self pity" is an emotion, albiet a pretty selfish and stupid one.

[mrlouie]

i was at the show ...
Chistina A was by far the best performance and vocal sound ... it really did sound amazing at the show. Ceelo sounded really good also. I liked the MJB performance but her vocal didnt sound as good others... could you hear the mic breaking up at times durning the James Blunt performance ? it was really bad

my mini review ..

ps ... i gotta see Shakira perform live ... i can now die happy ..

[lucey]

Thanks for that. I'm back H .... can't resist a response to your response.

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well most musicians I've known don't have open ears. I was accused of not having open ears many years ago. A bass player called me a musical bigot. He was right. Shook my world. You certainly CAN work in music and not have an open mind. I know very few people who do.

You're making my point ... you listen to her like a musician. Others listen to her like they wish they had her talent/are in awe of the perspiration and pipeifications. And those are BOTH identifications. When I was younger, a guitarist, I too was identified. Now I listen in a different way ... and fewer things are really good, fewer yet are great ... that's called evolving taste. And at the SAME TIME, nothing is 'bad' like it was as an identified youth. Not even Justin T is as bad as things seemed 2 decades ago.

And yet again, as far as Professional Listening ... we/you bond with it all ... for an hour or a day ... as if you were them and life depends on this music, right here. You dont judge anything ... and you feel anything you can. That's a very evolved thing for a musicians ear. That objectivity and intentional emotional connection is 100% foreign to most all musicians, I agree with you there.


As far as not "feeling" her ... you really can't argue that we should, or are flawed for not. Do you feel all music equally? When a person cries I can always feel it, but if it's a selfish cry that makes a different feeling in me than if something precious is lost forever or if a loved one has died. Emotional gushing is not a blank check ... it needs a qualifyer to have meaning.

[henryrobinett]

Brian - Well cool, but I don't see how that quote made your point. But you're right. I don't see how could NOT listen to anything without being a musican. Those are the ears I have and the training I have. I've trained myself to hear chords, and notes and phrasing and dynamics and being an engineer has more trained me to hear tonal qualities and dynamics in a different way. I can't help these things. Yet and still when I listen to music I don't listen, for the most part, analytically. I listen to how it makes me feel. Does the groove grab me? Does the vocalist have a vibe I like. Then if I like it or think I can learn or gleen something from it then I listen more seriously.

But I also imagine what I'd do if I were producing the artist. What could I bring to the table. What could he or she bring to the table? I'd give my right nut to have her sing on some of my tunes. I think she'd be great/ Hell. I'd just love to work with her in the studio. I think she'd be down to business. Certainly better than any singer I've ever worked with.

And for serious listening, as you said, for me it's important to not judge. Hear it. Listen to it. Let the music tell me without me getting in the way with preconceptions and opinions.

That objectivity and intentional emotional connection is 100% foreign to most all musicians, I agree with you there.

According to this thread it's also as foreign to most engineers.

Let me make one thing clear again. I'm not arguing with those who say they feel her differently or don't like what they feel or think that her feeling is "fake." I'm responding to those who say they don't feel her at all. This is still a mystery to me. And I don't mean to make others wrong for not feeling her. I'm saying I don't get it. Someone could disagree with me about Coltrane. I think he's brillaint and they think he's crap. OK. I can more understand that disagreement. That's OK. That's opinion. This, for me, is less of opinion. It's someone saying emotion isn't even there. This I can't get my head around. I don't see even how this is possible. Not like it or her or her clothes or the way she sings. YES. I can accept that. But that there's no emotion? It's like saying Russian people don't exist. Do you know what I'm saying? It makes absolutely zero sense. So much "no sense", that for me it's ********. I don't mean to put anyone down. But it's simply ********.

So the only way I can accept this is to assume there's a misunderstanding of the word and concept "emotion."

One is a subjective emotion. It's what we ourselves feel in relation to the world around us or just in ourselves. The other is perceiving energy in others on a graduated scale of plus/minus "emotion". Energy wavelengths emanating from other beings. These can be interpreted as happiness, sadness, grief, exhilaration, hysteria, hostility. These can be registered electronically. They exist in the real world. People can perceive them. Police hook people up to electrodes and call the device a "lie detector." This registers emotional response. It's not subjective. It's interpretation might be.

One emotion is entirely subjective. One's own universe. Another is outside oneself. One can influence the other. But (sorry for being so didactic) when I get hung up on something, and it's not very often, I really get hung up. I don't like to not understand human beings. I think I have a pretty good grasp otherwise.

Listen, I'm enjoying the thought process here. If we can keep the hostility at bay . . .

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by stampen

I'm with Henry all the way on this one.

Isn't it funny with all the guys around here who yells oversinging!! as soon as a singer does some melismas but seem to have no problem when guitarists do the same.

Isn't it funny with the all the "zep rules dude" guys around here (boatloads) who yells FAKE! whenever CA comes up, but seems to have no problem with longhaird men in tight pants trying to sound black with a guitar playing whats usually hailed as "blues"-rock.

What is it with 70s "blues"-rock and sound enigineers anyway?

And Lucey. Telling Henry that he doesn't listen for emotion because he is a musician, COME ON. I left that oversimplyfied view of the world over ten years ago and I'm six years younger than you.

I think there are three dead give aways that I'm not dealing with a proffessional and they are:

Someone dissing music because it is.

- overproduced
- only technique, no feeling
- too commercial

Open your ears people.

/A

Well damn, I guess I better just go jerk off a big unprofessional load on all my gear since I don't like all this overproduced, technical, commerical shit... give me a ****ing break. Could you possibly be anymore full of shit?

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Now I'll readily admit my own arrogance. I've worked very hard at what I do. I practice probably on average two hours a day for the last 35 years or so. I'm very good at what I do. I am well trained technicallyand even though I have no degree have been asked to join the faculty at various universities. I know what I'm doing in music. I've played professionally all of those 35 years or so.

What do you play again?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Let me make one thing clear again. I'm not arguing with those who say they feel her differently or don't like what they feel or think that her feeling is "fake." I'm responding to those who say they don't feel her at all. This is still a mystery to me. And I don't mean to make others wrong for not feeling her. I'm saying I don't get it.

What is it with this "feel" thing? Yes I feel it. Yes she has emotion, good or bad, heartfelt or not, real or contrived. And?

I will always remember Rosanne Bar's singing of the national anthem. Yes she had emotion. Yes I could "feel" the perfomance, loud and clear.

I can't seem to figure out your point.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

What is it with this "feel" thing? Yes I feel it. Yes she has emotion, good or bad, heartfelt or not, real or contrived. And?

I will always remember Rosanne Bar's singing of the national anthem. Yes she had emotion. Yes I could "feel" the perfomance, loud and clear.

I can't seem to figure out your point.

Right ... a baby cries, we all feel it ... but what does it mean?

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

... Not like it or her or her clothes or the way she sings. YES. I can accept that. But that there's no emotion? I don't mean to put anyone down. But it's simply ********.

So the only way I can accept this is to assume there's a misunderstanding of the word and concept "emotion."

All I can say about this artist is that the emotion she feels is real for her. Ella, Joni Mitchell, Etta James, Neko Case, Annie Lennox, Sinead ... their feeling comes across the air to me as more that selfish emoting ... it has meaning, love, a giving quality, it's uplifting. This is not a question of style, or "like" and "dislike" ... it's about the quality of the emotion. Emotion is empty without a context of other qualitites and intentions.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by dobby12

What do you play again?

Guitar.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

What is it with this "feel" thing? Yes I feel it. Yes she has emotion, good or bad, heartfelt or not, real or contrived. And?

I will always remember Rosanne Bar's singing of the national anthem. Yes she had emotion. Yes I could "feel" the perfomance, loud and clear.

I can't seem to figure out your point.

Well then, I think my point is people gave been exaggerating that they can 't feel her. Of course they can feel her. Whether you like her or not is another question. You know?

Yes I could feel Rosanne Barr too. I also thought it was funny. Not musical art.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by lucey

All I can say about this artist is that the emotion she feels is real for her. Ella, Joni Mitchell, Etta James, Neko Case, Annie Lennox, Sinead ... their feeling comes across the air to me as more that selfish emoting ... it has meaning, love, a giving quality, it's uplifting. This is not a question of style, or "like" and "dislike" ... it's about the quality of the emotion. Emotion is empty without a context of other qualitites and intentions.

That makes sense. I mean I don't read it like that. But I can hear you saying that and I can understand it.

Then I wonder if those who have difficulty {i]feeling[/i] her have a context for feeling her. In other words have you heard a LOT of the music style she's emulating?

Whenever I've had a hard time listening to a style it's generally one of a couple of things: I am not familiar enough with the genre to give it a worthwhile context or I can't play it. And if I can't play it I can have a tendency to put it down.

I'm not saying she has got to floa anyones boat at all. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone should appreciate her. It's just that when she sang I felt her in my solar plexis. It was big and obvious.

So this is more of a philosophical thing I'm talking about. How can one person hear something and someone else hear it so differently? You know? How can one person be moved by the emotion of Jimi Hendrix' Voodoo Chile and the other guy not feel a thing?

I certainly don't think we're all the same. But I think tht we have the ability to understand, all of us.

I reminded myself of an exercise I used to do when my youngest one aways insisted on listening to Hip Hop, some of which I liked, some I didn't. I forced myself to find sometihng I could admire in each song, language permitting. There was always SOMETHING I could admire. Then it began to spread. More familiarity gave me the ability to compreheand what others were hearing. You know, come to think of it, this is a pretty damn crucial ability for engineers and producers.

So I'm trying to hear more, not less. That's me.

I never could understand people who hated entire styles or genres of music. You know? That's like hating entire groups of people.

[Bluzzi]

From what I heard she has "chops" but is that all that is needed? For some reason CA never seems to "get" to me. Its like everytime she sings its an "attack" on the song and she is out to scream and push everynote to convice me that she has emotion. I just don't get it. She tries way too hard. If she just sang the song and then built it up if it needed it she would be more convincing.

I am glad that not everyone likes her though. It shows there is room up there for artists that have something to say rather than try to prove that they have a 4 octave range. (who cares).

Its like making love. We all like once in a while, a hard and fast one but not all the time!

Its become about the singer more than about the song.

Listen to Gladis Knight who has the chops but also the control, now thats love making!

jim

[zboy2854]

Henry, here's the simplest way I know how to put it, hopefully this explains the difference.

It's not that those of us who aren't "feeling" Xtina don't recognize that she's trying to convey emotion, it's simply that we don't believe her.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

Henry, here's the simplest way I know how to put it, hopefully this explains the difference.

It's not that those of us who aren't "feeling" Xtina don't recognize that she's trying to convey emotion, it's simply that we don't believe her.

I got that part.