4 guys in a room and bleed issues

majortom · 7th February 2007, 04:59 PM

I'm recording a 4 piece rock band that sounds like a slightly more pop version of Wilco. Really good songs. Anyway, they want to do "the 4 guys in a room playing their asses off thing." And I don't want to get in the way.

I have a handle on isolating the guitars with gobos and careful amp and mic placement. The drums I'm ok with. The bass is another story. The bassist plays through an 8x10 Ampeg cabinet which sounds nice live, but I am just imagining that every track will have tons of bass bleeding into it.

I have limited experience with this kind of recording, I'm mostly an overdub kinda guy. Normally, I would ask the bass player to go direct and then reamp later and have the rest of the band wear headphones to monitor what's going on.

So, do you guys have any techniques that may prove helpful in letting the bass player use his cab without sabotaging the mixing process later.

Not sure if this is the right forum but I figure you "remote-sters" are probably the best equipped to deal with bleed issues.

Thanks.

Jungle Jazz · 8th February 2007, 05:21 AM

I'll pitch in my two cents here. I'd say that if you can go with a smaller bass cab, that might work better all around. If your bass player likes the sound of 10 inch speakers, then you might try to get a hold of a 2X10 cabinet (or even a 1X10 if you can find one), if you plan on micing the bass cab. You really only need one speaker if you are going to close mic the thing. You could go with a 1X12 cabinet, or even a 1X15, but that will change his sound somewhat if he is used to 10s. I'd say also try to take a DI, either out of the bass amp or through a DI box.

If the bass player is wedded to the 8X10 cabinet, then you might try to put it on its side, but decouple it from the floor, even just slightly. Those 8x10 cabinets ordinarily stand at about shoulder height, so you don't want the sound blowing into all the other mics. Try to get the cabinet down low, where it won't muck around with the other mics as much. You might try a good dynamic mic on the cabinet itself, and if you've got gobos to work with, there's no harm in blocking the cabinet off a bit, as long as the other players, especially the drummer, can hear it (assuming you're going without headphones). For a recent reference CD, you might give the Red Hot Chilli Peppers' Stadium Arcadium a listen. I belive that the majority of that was tracked with everyone live in the same room. Good luck.

majortom · 9th February 2007, 03:16 PM

I think the smaller bass cab would be a good bet. I can sell it to him with, "You're only mic'ing one speaker anyway." Thanks. Any other advice would be appreciated.

kriSh · 9th February 2007, 05:53 PM

Recently I had a pretty similar project going on in a nice room (which is very important). They had a 1x15 bass combo which worked well on lower volumes. In your case I would also definately put the 8x10 horizontally and low, uncoupling from the floor!

The way to success for me was a lot of experimenting with the bleed (actually doing test records) more before seriously starting to record the material. Keep the volumes low to start out. I imagined where I wanted to go with the mix and focussed on the main mics used for this, adjusting the amp volumes accordingly. This way, my stereo overheads captured a nice room sound in the background having a great balance of the other instruments speaking of loudness and stereo placement.

The key was to have a great stereo and tonal balance of the well-tuned kit itself in the foreground (louder) as well as a nice overall image balance of the other also close-miced stuff bleeding in the background. I moved the amps around for stereo positioning.

Of course the guitar amp had to be played fairly loud so we decided to put it outside of the room close to the door, facing slightly angled against a wall with the mic in between. So we still had a working monitoring level with reduced bleed in the room and the direct sound coming from the close mic.
Maybe facing the bass cabinet backwards against a wall works for you too if he insists on playing that loud?
We ended up overdubbing the vocals - but the band needed to orientate on the vocals so they kept eye-contact with the singer just moving her lips. Worked great with them!

The band did a really quick job in recording afterwards and it was well worth the time we spent experimenting before.

Student · 1st May 2007, 07:06 AM

I also recently did this, I took the bass amp DI to the board and miked it, but dumped the mic. later as it sounded like carp, yes, carp, the fish.

Face the bass amp at the kick drum, but I put a bean bag chair a foot in front and that cut bass bleed, but didn't need it.

Close mic. the guitars with a 57 each, my room was echoey so I put a thick windscreen on the guitar mic. and that helped cut down on some noise, not a lot, guitarists facing each other at side of room. U2 did this.

_______Drums

Gtr.1__________Gtr.2 Ignore the underscores as I do not know HTML

_______Bass

Bono used a 58 in the middle of them. So I'm told

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7th February 2007, 04:59 PM	#1
majortom Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 502	4 guys in a room and bleed issues I'm recording a 4 piece rock band that sounds like a slightly more pop version of Wilco. Really good songs. Anyway, they want to do "the 4 guys in a room playing their asses off thing." And I don't want to get in the way. I have a handle on isolating the guitars with gobos and careful amp and mic placement. The drums I'm ok with. The bass is another story. The bassist plays through an 8x10 Ampeg cabinet which sounds nice live, but I am just imagining that every track will have tons of bass bleeding into it. I have limited experience with this kind of recording, I'm mostly an overdub kinda guy. Normally, I would ask the bass player to go direct and then reamp later and have the rest of the band wear headphones to monitor what's going on. So, do you guys have any techniques that may prove helpful in letting the bass player use his cab without sabotaging the mixing process later. Not sure if this is the right forum but I figure you "remote-sters" are probably the best equipped to deal with bleed issues. Thanks.

1st May 2007, 07:06 AM	#5
Student Gear interested Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emeryville Posts: 17	I also recently did this, I took the bass amp DI to the board and miked it, but dumped the mic. later as it sounded like carp, yes, carp, the fish. Face the bass amp at the kick drum, but I put a bean bag chair a foot in front and that cut bass bleed, but didn't need it. Close mic. the guitars with a 57 each, my room was echoey so I put a thick windscreen on the guitar mic. and that helped cut down on some noise, not a lot, guitarists facing each other at side of room. U2 did this. _______Drums Gtr.1__________Gtr.2 Ignore the underscores as I do not know HTML _______Bass Bono used a 58 in the middle of them. So I'm told __________________ Ω Last edited by Student; 1st May 2007 at 07:06 AM.. Reason: Spelling

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8th February 2007, 05:21 AM	#2
Jungle Jazz Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Washington, D.C. area Posts: 288	I'll pitch in my two cents here. I'd say that if you can go with a smaller bass cab, that might work better all around. If your bass player likes the sound of 10 inch speakers, then you might try to get a hold of a 2X10 cabinet (or even a 1X10 if you can find one), if you plan on micing the bass cab. You really only need one speaker if you are going to close mic the thing. You could go with a 1X12 cabinet, or even a 1X15, but that will change his sound somewhat if he is used to 10s. I'd say also try to take a DI, either out of the bass amp or through a DI box. If the bass player is wedded to the 8X10 cabinet, then you might try to put it on its side, but decouple it from the floor, even just slightly. Those 8x10 cabinets ordinarily stand at about shoulder height, so you don't want the sound blowing into all the other mics. Try to get the cabinet down low, where it won't muck around with the other mics as much. You might try a good dynamic mic on the cabinet itself, and if you've got gobos to work with, there's no harm in blocking the cabinet off a bit, as long as the other players, especially the drummer, can hear it (assuming you're going without headphones). For a recent reference CD, you might give the Red Hot Chilli Peppers' Stadium Arcadium a listen. I belive that the majority of that was tracked with everyone live in the same room. Good luck.

9th February 2007, 03:16 PM	#3
majortom Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 502	I think the smaller bass cab would be a good bet. I can sell it to him with, "You're only mic'ing one speaker anyway." Thanks. Any other advice would be appreciated.

9th February 2007, 05:53 PM	#4
kriSh Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 77	Recently I had a pretty similar project going on in a nice room (which is very important). They had a 1x15 bass combo which worked well on lower volumes. In your case I would also definately put the 8x10 horizontally and low, uncoupling from the floor! The way to success for me was a lot of experimenting with the bleed (actually doing test records) more before seriously starting to record the material. Keep the volumes low to start out. I imagined where I wanted to go with the mix and focussed on the main mics used for this, adjusting the amp volumes accordingly. This way, my stereo overheads captured a nice room sound in the background having a great balance of the other instruments speaking of loudness and stereo placement. The key was to have a great stereo and tonal balance of the well-tuned kit itself in the foreground (louder) as well as a nice overall image balance of the other also close-miced stuff bleeding in the background. I moved the amps around for stereo positioning. Of course the guitar amp had to be played fairly loud so we decided to put it outside of the room close to the door, facing slightly angled against a wall with the mic in between. So we still had a working monitoring level with reduced bleed in the room and the direct sound coming from the close mic. Maybe facing the bass cabinet backwards against a wall works for you too if he insists on playing that loud? We ended up overdubbing the vocals - but the band needed to orientate on the vocals so they kept eye-contact with the singer just moving her lips. Worked great with them! The band did a really quick job in recording afterwards and it was well worth the time we spent experimenting before.