Upcoming orchestral recording

[zakco]

Hi all,

I've got an upcoming session with an 18 piece string orchestra in a local theatre. I've done 2 previous recordings in the same room but always with much larger groups. You can get an idea of the venue here: http://woodshoprecording.com/viso.htm

I have a rental budget that will allow for a pair of main mics. Depending on availability (vancouver island BC) I was considering a pair of Shoeps with cardoid capsules used with Soundeluxe E49s as ambient mics.

In addition to the rental pair, I have at my disposal:

Soundeluxe E49 (2)
AEA R84 (3)
Royer 121 (3)
AKG C414XLS (2)
Soundeluxe U195 (3)
Audio Technica 4050 (2)
Gefell UMT70s
Josephson C42 (2)
Shure KSM141 (4)

Signal path will be:
Millenia HV (8 channels)
John Hardy M1 (8 channels)
RADAR24 (classic converters)

For spot mics I was planning on something like this:

-Ambient mics: E49 (2)
-Violins: 2 royers and 2 R84s
-Violas: Royer 121
-Cello: C414 (2)
-Bass: U195 (2)
-Vocal soloist: UMT70s
-Violin Soloist: R84

Depending on how successful an "all ribbon" approach is with the violins and violas I will be able to use the AT4050s, KSM 141s or C42s instead if needed.

With the earlier recordings I used an ORTF pair with omni outriggers as my main mics. I'm wondering though, if this group might be too small for that approach (the wide omni outriggers in particular) and maybe there is a better way...

How would you approach this recording?

thanks,

-Zak

[Roland]

With an 18 piece orchestra keep it simple and go with either the schoepes, AKG 414's or your Audiotechnica's 4050's. Of course I'm unfamilier with the acoustic of your room, but I would suggest that with that number of strings, assuming they are ok players, spot miking will be a waste of time. Ribbons can sound great on strings, however, not many pro's would be reaching for ribbons to do this job.

Regards


Roland

[pkautzsch]

What I'm missing in your mic list is a pair of pressure transducers, so that's what I'd go for. Schoeps MK2, Neumann KM130, DPA 4006, maybe.
That room looks nice and as if it sounded good. You'll need spots only for "messing" with the orchestra's balance, assuming it's good players. I'm not a fan of messing, but sometimes you have to.

[zakco]

Well...the room is great, and I completely agree that the best way to capture this group would be with minimal micing, but....in the past, both the conductor and producer have demanded complete spot mic coverage for damage control later. They've always taken a bit of a rush through the performance and try to fix it later approach. While I may disagree with that philosophy, it's not my call to make...so many mics there will be...

Originally Posted by Roland

Ribbons can sound great on strings, however, not many pro's would be reaching for ribbons to do this job.

I'm surprised by this. On the last recording we used anR84 over the 1st violins and it was by far the easiest spot mic to work with, tonally. The rest of the violins had KM140s and were very brittle by comparison.
Are you saying going completely with ribbons for the violins and violas would be a mistake? I do have other options of course (4050, KSM141, C42 (too bright IMO).

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

What I'm missing in your mic list is a pair of pressure transducers, so that's what I'd go for. Schoeps MK2, Neumann KM130, DPA 4006, maybe.

I'll look into availablity for these, thanks for the suggestions.

What do you think of the ORTF/ wide OMNI approach for a group this size?

-Z-

[Roland]

If this is a live recording, with 18 players, you don't need spot's. Any condutor or musician telling you to spot, because it will help fix problems, doesn't know what they are talking about, most likely it will cause them.

Ribbons can add a pleasant rounded tone, but it's not the most accurate sound. As several other posters here have also suggested go with a couple of SDC's or alternatively the "flattest" other mics you have, those being the AKG's or the ATM 4050's.

Follow golden rule number one KISS!

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Regards


Roland

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Roland

If this is a live recording, with 18 players, you don't need spot's. Any condutor or musician telling you to spot, because it will help fix problems, doesn't know what they are talking about, most likely it will cause them.

This may be absolutely true, but as I mentioned, it's not my decision to make. Hopefully, the main mics will turn out excellent and the performances will be reasonably good, meaning that the spots will be used as little as possible. (or not at all) The producer has asked me to provide them with spots that will be as useful as possible if/when they're needed. I would LOVE to keep it simple, but with these particular clients, I'm just going to give them what they ask for and do the best job I can. This is the 3rd recording they've hired me to do. I'd like to get another...

Ribbons can add a pleasant rounded tone, but it's not the most accurate sound. As several other posters here have also suggested go with a couple of SDC's or alternatively the "flattest" other mics you have, those being the AKG's or the ATM 4050's.

The SDCs that I have at my disposal are not very forgiving for violins and violas, which is what got me thinking about ribbons...maybe I need to re-examine my approach.

Thanks,

-Z-

[pkautzsch]

So if this is about putting up lots of mics to make the conductor happy, but still not f*ing up the sound, I'd go for unobtrusive sounding mics rather than "good" mics. You don't need to tell him that you won't use all those mics. MAYYYYBEEEE a little double bass spot mic for "definition".
If he wants an artificial and hyped sound, well...that's what he deserves

[RobAnderson]

ORTF if you are in a hurry but my preference would be three Omni's - left, center and right (ala Decca Tree). Depends on the room and the ensemble, but Schoeps MK2's, MK2S or H, and the KM130's would all be fine. I like the KM130's with the diffraction spheres myself - helps to focus the brightness of them.

Doesn't mean you still can't set up all your spot mic's to make the conductor happy (whatever you need to do to keep the client happy), but concentrate on getting the mains right - if time is of the essence, this is the priority. No amount of spot mic'ing will fix a bad performance...

[classicalrecord]

even just two omnis spaced apart appropriately seems like the most accurate and natural way to record the group and since you'll have a million other mics up anyway, you can just add those in if necessary. i have a pair of the c42's as well and i agree that they can be a bit bright on violins if you get too close, however i've had pretty good luck when i don't get too close and use a little bit of eq-- down a little at 8k, gently, does wonders to smooth everything out.

[zakco]

a couple more questions:

1. I've never used a Decca Tree before but from my research (and your suggestions) it sounds like this might be a good approach. I've found plenty diagrams explaining how to space the mics, but I haven't seen much in the way of suggestions for positioning relative to the source. For a group like this (18 piece strings) what kind of distance/height would be appropriate, relative to the conductor?

2. If I were to go with a spaced pair of omnis instead, would the soundeluxe E49 be a good choice? I've only used them in the studio, never in this type of environment....

Thanks,

-Z-

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by zakco

I have a rental budget that will allow for a pair of main mics. Depending on availability (vancouver island BC) I was considering a pair of Shoeps with cardoid capsules used with Soundeluxe E49s as ambient mics.

In addition to the rental pair, I have at my disposal:

Soundeluxe E49 (2)
AEA R84 (3)
Royer 121 (3)
AKG C414XLS (2)
Soundeluxe U195 (3)
Audio Technica 4050 (2)
Gefell UMT70s
Josephson C42 (2)
Shure KSM141 (4)

Signal path will be:
Millenia HV (8 channels)
John Hardy M1 (8 channels)
RADAR24 (classic converters)

-Zak

i just recoreded an orchestra rehearsing in Ft. Worth, Tx. the
hall was amazing and the orchestra was fantastic. for this,
i used 2 neumann KM184s in ORTF right behind the conductor
and about a foot over his head. i would start there. if i would
have had time, i might have put an omni on each side of the
stage for more coverage...and definitely a couple of omnis in
the house but i was amazed how much "room" sound i got
in the main pair.

one thing i was thinking about the ribbon mics as spot mics
is that in my (limited) experience with ribbons, they have
somewhat higher self-noise due to the fact i have to open
my mic pre-amps up nearly all the way. that may be
fine for loud passages, but if the orchestra is extremely
quiet at times, you might pick up some "hiss" that might
be unpleasant. mind you, i've never used the R84s, so
noise might not be an issue.

i've heard great things about the Shure KSM141s too, so maybe
they'd work well as spot mics. oh, and i love the Millenia mic
pres, so i'd also go there first with the main mics.

probably not much help, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents
in especially regarding my good luck w/ the cardiods in ORTF
behind the conductor.

cheers,
marty.

[pkautzsch]

Decca Tree is often put up around the conductor. I've never tried it for small orchestras though. There don't seem to be fixed rules for spacing, but everyone keeps saying "listen and adjust".
I'd start with 2ft spaced omnis somewhat like 3 to 6 ft behind the conductor, very much depending on room and on the presence/absence of trumpets and french horns.

[Karl Jackson]

While ORTF w/ flanking omnis would result in a fine, spatially detailed recording (I use this setup maybe 95% of the time), with a smaller orchestra like this I would use AB, which would result in a bigger sounding, more cohesive sense of ensemble. This last weekend I recorded a very similar group w/ 25" spaced omnis and was quite happy with the results. This works especially well when you have upstage woodwinds that are section miked to fill in the slight hole in the middle that results from AB.

Karl Jackson

[RobAnderson]

Placing a "Decca Tree" depends on a few things, one of which is whether you are flying the mic's or using stands, and more importantly the hall and the seating/arrangement of the ensemble, but generally the center mic ends up being over the conductor's head or even in front of him/her (especially if the ensemble is "deep" if that makes sense) and one ends up on either side of or a bit behind the conductor about even with (sometimes over) the front desks of the first violins and celli (and these are focused left and right usually at the second or third row of the section).

Vary this recipe to taste of course, but around 10 feet is a good starting height. If the spacing is too wide, etc... Since you will have the spots, you will need to see how these work together with the mains

I have no knowledge of the Soundeluxe mic's.

Best of luck!

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Decca Tree is often put up around the conductor. I've never tried it for small orchestras though. There don't seem to be fixed rules for spacing, but everyone keeps saying "listen and adjust".

With a small ensemble, go for a somewhat smaller tree. My usual tree is roughly 3-1/2 feet wide and about the same length. Reducing the tree by 6 inches per side will shrink your image a bit and will help hold a smaller group's sound together...

For pure classical stuff, I use a main pair and flanks usually. The main pair may be ORTF, Blumlein, decca or any one of the many other possibilities out there. When the session is for a more commercial product or a score, I add spots in the strings. The number of spots is dependent on the size of the group. It usually ends up being one or two per section.

If you're looking for a more direct sound, the tree is supposed to be over the conductor's head- you'll get a bit more "dig" into the group with this setup. The omni flanks will help open things up a bit.

--Ben