Cello trio in a living room

[edwinhurwitz]

On Sunday, I'll be recording 3 cello students in a living room for an audition demo. My plan is to use a pair of 414B XLSs in M/S format through a Grace Lunatec V3 to a MH 2882. It seems to me that this would probably work out better than individually mic'ing the instruments. If I can have them form a semi-circle around the mics close enough to give a good cello to room ratio this will hopefully keep the potentially weird reverberations relatively low. I haven't been in the room, but I hear it has high ceilings and is of pretty standard living room dimensions.

This is the first time I have recorded something like this, so I'd be happy to take any advice that anyone might have. Other available mics are (2) Rode NT-5s, (2) Oktava MK-012s, (2) Groove Tubes GT57s (I've used one of these for a cello in an acoustic band situation and it sounded great) (2) Beyer M500s and some various dynamics.

The sad thing is that it needs to be submitted on a cassette. Who the hell uses that anymore?

TIA
Edwin

[Remoteness]

Analog audio cassette?

I know I don't have to say it, but I will anyway...

I trust you'll be recording to a higher quality recorder then dubbing to cassette.

I have no doubt you're doing the right thing -- I just wanted to make a point for the kiddies and bump this thread up for some serious replies.

[Remoteness]

But wait, the kiddies would not know anything about audio cassette.

I guess I should have said "old farts" that haven't joined the digital age yet.

Or, don't want to change the player in their classic car because it's original equipment.

[lord_bunny]

I would use the 414's in a Blumlein pair and place them as you described, grabbing what you deem to be an appropriate amount of room. I would use Three more LDC's on the individual instruments as well. I suggest this as it enables one to perhaps use some convolution verb, or perhaps just a blend with the Blumlein pair.

[edwinhurwitz]

I'll be recording probably to the Metric Halo Console and then editing in Peak and giving each of the kids a CD. The teacher will dub to cassette. I suppose I could pound the hell out of the rough mix with Vintage Warmer to give it that analog tape feel!

One thing is occurring to me, though. If I use an M/S pair and the end users are listening to cassette, there is a horrible chance they might be listening in mono, which means the cellists to the side might end up with short shrift. I'll have to do some tests, but XY might be safer.


Thanks for chiming in!
Edwin

[Jim vanBergen]

Can you do a Blumlein AND a spaced pair, or M-S and a spaced pair? Great to have options....

cassette? I thought those went out with 1200 baud connections

[edwinhurwitz]

Remember that I am in a 12'x15' living room recording some 12 year old kids for $50. I think that individually mic'ed cellos and 4 other mics in the room might be a little intimidating. I don't expect to get concert hall acoustics out of the room, so Blumlein might be a little too "roomy". I am curious, though, why Blumlein might be better than M/S or XY.


I would love to take them to a nice space, an auditorium or church or something like that and really do it right, but they don't have the budget, nor, I would guess, the attention span. I am hoping that this might lead to a nice little niche market here in Boulder. They were thinking of going to a studio, but I think that by keeping them in a comfortable environment, their confidence will create a better performance, which, in my view, is way more important than a completely pristine and perfect capture.

Thanks for all the comments! It's great to get all these good ideas!

Edwin

[Remoteness]

Bumpage works!

[Jim vanBergen]

Hey Edwin.

I've done a lot of these, especially since I'm married to a family of classical musicians and anytime someone needs a demo or down & dirty/cheap recording, it's me to the rescue. I think they'll be VERY happy with your work, because you care, and you'll try your best in a non-professional room.

I like Blumlein in a 'live' room, because you get a very even front spectrum with good phase that folds to mono well, and once the players are set right, you can move the mic pair forward or back to get the instrument to room ratio in the right place.

I also love spaced pair, and I switch from omni to cardioid if I have too much room tone. But you're right, individual miking AND two pairs is insane. "Sorry about that, Chief!!"

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

On Sunday, I'll be recording 3 cello students in a living room for an audition demo.

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

The sad thing is that it needs to be submitted on a cassette.

I wouldn't give this one too much thought - it's to serve a very basic purpose, not for a commercial release!

Just stick up a spaced pair of omnis or a blumlein pair (you can do both with the AKGs) and the results will be more than satisfactory.

Seriously, no audition panel is going to care about the acoustics, just so long as they can hear the instruments clearly.

[classicalrecord]

well... i have a feeling that some audition committees do care about recording quality, or so i've heard in any case. although if they're asking for it on cassette tape we may be dealing with a rather different type of organization that i'm thinking of. in any case, some sort of stereo pair, as mentioned is certainly going to be sufficient in this case.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by classicalrecord

well... i have a feeling that some audition committees do care about recording quality

I didn't say anything about recording quality, I mentioned acoustics.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Hey Edwin.
I also love spaced pair, and I switch from omni to cardioid if I have too much room tone. But you're right, individual miking AND two pairs is insane. "Sorry about that, Chief!!"

Well, I just found a great deal on a GT66, so now I have 3 relatively similar mics as well as the AKGs, so the insane part of me is really tempted to go in with 5 mics!

Not really. It turns out I'll have a little time to play while they rehearse, so I'll probably start with the spaced pair idea and take it from there.

Thanks again for so many great ideas, this forum is the best! From rock and roll to electronica to classical, we have it covered!

Edwin

[classicalrecord]

well, to me acoustics aren't really separable from recording quality, at least when it comes to classical music. but i'm not trying to argue about it and i think half of this is probably just semantics. i'm not saying you can't have a "high quality" recording where the acoustics suck, but i do think in classical music that i wouldn't consider a recording "high quality" overall if the acoustics were really bad even if they were using really nice equipment. anyway, hope that makes sense.

[RobR]

go in with 5 mics. y not


sorry not used to azerty style keyboards

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by classicalrecord

well, to me acoustics aren't really separable from recording quality, at least when it comes to classical music. but i'm not trying to argue about it and i think half of this is probably just semantics. i'm not saying you can't have a "high quality" recording where the acoustics suck, but i do think in classical music that i wouldn't consider a recording "high quality" overall if the acoustics were really bad even if they were using really nice equipment. anyway, hope that makes sense.

I think you are absolutely correct about this and it applies to a lot more than classical music. However, we deal with what we have. To me, "high quality" is all relative to the purpose of making a recording. I am not planning to make a CD here, just document the abilities of 3 young aspiring cellists to a panel of judges for a workshop. They will also get to have a CD on which they played. Certainly a thrill for any young musician. I think this will be higher quality with a little less livingroom and maybe a touch of convolution reverb for ambience. If the kids enjoy the recording and they get accepted to the workshop, then there is no higher quality needed.

But you are right, in an aesthetic sense, the room is part of a performance. This is why there are so many classical records I find very stressful to listen to. When all the instruments are close mic'ed and heard with perfect sheen in all their individual glory, it sounds incredibly weird to me. It's as if my ears are being stretched to be right in front of each instrument at once.


One thing I was curious about from the earlier part of the thread which relates to this is in using a spaced pair in a small room, what kind of space between the mics should I be looking at? I know that in concert halls, the distance between them is anywhere from 10 to 25 feet depending on the size of the room, etc, but in a room that is probably 15 feet in its largest dimension is there a good rule of thumb for setting the mics?

All the best,
Edwin

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by RobR

go in with 5 mics. y not

I don't want to intimidate the kids. Lots of mics, cables, gear, etc, probably will be distracting.

Originally Posted by RobR

sorry not used to azerty style keyboards

Not a problem!

Edwin