"Does not play well with others"

[loranoyd]

... if I was still young enough to receive report cards, I'm afraid that is what it would say about me. I write to gather opinions about a developing situtation, and to ask what you would do if you found yourself in similar circumstances.

The set up: I record the performances of the local (very good) community orchestra, in which I also play. I am the roadie and set-up guy, and my wife is the engineer and "the ears." We have been recording, on average, six concerts a year for about two years. We have our "system" to where we like it (although, in true slut fashion, we are always looking to improve), and, what's more, the orchestra members who buy our recordings enjoy the final product. As a side note, I wish to mention that I consider myself a dedicated amateur recordist. I take the responsibility very seriously, and I try to do the best recording job I can, but I have no formal training in audio engineering or any other kind of engineering.

The issue: A guy approaches me during rehearsal break, introduces himself as a substitute bassoon player and a "recording engineer." I do not know who he is, I do not know where he works, and I have never heard his work. He would like the opportunity to record with me, side-by-side, I guess. He wanted to patch in to my microphones. I typically record on five channels: a center triad consisting of 2 Beyerdynamics M160 ribbons in Blumlein configuration with a single center Neumann KM184, and two Neumann TLM 103s as flanking microphones. All mics are in a straight line, about 15 feet from the orchestra and 10 feet up. (The hall is like a stadium with the orchestra on the floor) I tell him that my mics go straight from outboard preamps directly to my MOTU 896 HD. I have no outboard mixer, nor do I own splitters, nor am I inclined to put anything in the signal chain that might introduce noise, hum, gremlins, etc. The guy asks me if I would be willing to route signal to his Mackie Onyx board first and take my feed from him. I told him no, because I am not convinced that the Onyx won't introduce said noise, gremlins, etc.

So that's why I'm asking whether I'm just being a snobby, ignorant pain-in-the-ass? Are my misgivings justified? Oh, and just to add to my anxiety: he informs me that he is eager to "try out" his new multitrack recording program, Pyramid. Now, am I being overly paranoid here, or is it really unwise to "try out" new software during a one-time performance? I suppose I can give him output from my MOTU from each input, but I don't know for sure how to do it, and, more importantly, I don't think it's such a great idea to be screwing around with signal output ON THE DAY OF THE FREAKIN' CONCERT!!!! Especially since I have less than two hours to truck the crap in, set it all up, get the equipment going, and, oh yeah, take out my viola, warm up, and play the stupid concert!!!!! Ahem. Sorry for that! Please, good people, let me know what you think.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[woomanmoomin]

I do not think you're being unreasonable. The guy may have been moved along by a dozen other people before he got to you. Let him maybe screw up a project that's not so close to home!

[tnjazz]

Let him bring his own mics and his own crap. That's quite a bit of nerve to ask if he can patch his Mackie in BEFORE your stuff.

With the recent boom in home recording ability, everyone suddenly thinks they're a recording engineer (including me!)

You were not at all unreasonable. I assume you were nice, or at least civil. If you'd told him to go f*ck himself that might be another matter...

[AlexLakis]

He may be going to school for it/just graduated and just wants the tracks to play around with for some experience. I would definately veto the Mackie bit, tho. Running outs from the MOTU shouldn't screw you up at all (If his software messes up, it won't affect you at all,) but asking to plug a board in two hours before a show is kind of a no-no to begin with.

[loranoyd]

Thanks, guys, that's very reassuring. I assure everyone here that I was, at all times, a perfect gentleman while conversing with the engineer. In fact, I was somewhat in awe of him, since he introduced himself as a recording engineer, which, as I mentioned before, is definitely a title I would never ever dare append to myself. The bottom line is that I'm uncomfortable with the prospect of doing anything "new" so close to show time--even if it's something as basic as giving him the five signal outputs. I'm thinking about inviting him to record the dress rehearsal on Saturday. That way he can mess around to his heart's content (Did I fail to mention that I'm also the orchestra's president, and so I can invite him to record the dress rehearsal?) Anyway, thanks again. I'm feelin' the love in the room-- can you?

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[pkautzsch]

now that's really easy to get the MOTU inputs to the outputs. Start CueMix, get two channels up in each of the four "mixers" (and pan one hard L other hard R), route the mixers to the analogue outputs, there you go.
I do think, however, that the Mackie might have slightly (!) better pres than the MOTU. Wouldn't risk any syncing issues though, otherwise you could take his ADAT out.

OTOH: if he wants to try out his setup, he ought to bring his own mics or contact you a few days in advance for a connection "rehearsal".

[charlienyc]

Originally Posted by loranoyd

Thanks, guys, that's very reassuring. I assure everyone here that I was, at all times, a perfect gentleman while conversing with the engineer.

good, we'd expect nothing less from a fellow slut

Originally Posted by loranoyd

The bottom line is that I'm uncomfortable with the prospect of doing anything "new" so close to show time--even if it's something as basic as giving him the five signal outputs.

again good. you were right, and no one calling himself a professional should have even approached you at that time. that was decidedly NOT professional. tutt

Originally Posted by loranoyd

I'm thinking about inviting him to record the dress rehearsal on Saturday.

very gentlemanly of you! i recommend you "let him," or politely insist he, use his own mics and stands.

i use Pyramix (the software you mentioned) and it's not the kind of thing you jump right into without training, especially for a live remote recording! you might get a few laughs out of watching him try to navigate it as a newbie. he is kinda asking for it [the opportunity and the embarassment], and you wouldn't need to compromise your reputation as an engineer or a gentleman in the least. just a thought...

[charlienyc]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

OTOH: if he wants to try out his setup, he ought to bring his own mics or contact you a few days in advance for a connection "rehearsal".

yeah, what s/he said!

[ghellquist]

Hi Lloyd,
a fellow slutz, amateur trombone player and amateur recorder here. I know all about the adrenaline rising as the concert time approaches and how the way to avoid it is to stick to rigid routines. Any small snag can develop into a large nuisance.

I would not say that it is wrong from you to say no. Politely describe that adding all kinds of extra preparations will make it very difficult for you, as an amateur, to concetrate properly on you part in the orchestra, and we would not likely want this to lead into you making mistakes in the playing, would we? Mental capacity on a concert date is severly limited for us amateurs (I am the first to testify to that) and too much simply results in overload.

If you feel you have the extra mental capacity, the offer I think would be to use the inbuilt mixer in the Motu (I believe the 896HD has that? ) and transfer the input signals to line outputs. He could bring his tele patch cables and plug right into the outputs, preferrably balanced cables. You can setup the mixer path at home, well in advance of the concert, the setup will stay in the 896 until changed. In that case decide on a definite time to show up so that you have plenty of time to get things in place before the show starts.

On the other hand, think carefully about why you say yes or no. If you feel this guy as a competitor, better say no directly. If you feel him as a fellow where you each could learn from each other and have fun, then you may say yes.

Anyway, my 2 cents, off to rehearsal I go.

Gunnar

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by charlienyc

yeah, what s/he said!

Posting after I opened the thread.
I should reload immediately before replying.

[Remoteness]

I'm with you LLoyd.

And, I agree with everyone's view point on this thread so far.

All the best!

Originally Posted by loranoyd

Thanks, guys, that's very reassuring. I assure everyone here that I was, at all times, a perfect gentleman while conversing with the engineer. In fact, I was somewhat in awe of him, since he introduced himself as a recording engineer, which, as I mentioned before, is definitely a title I would never ever dare append to myself. The bottom line is that I'm uncomfortable with the prospect of doing anything "new" so close to show time--even if it's something as basic as giving him the five signal outputs. I'm thinking about inviting him to record the dress rehearsal on Saturday. That way he can mess around to his heart's content (Did I fail to mention that I'm also the orchestra's president, and so I can invite him to record the dress rehearsal?) Anyway, thanks again. I'm feelin' the love in the room-- can you?

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[Sound Chaser]

While hiring employees when I owned a sound company and someone introduced himself as a 'recording engineer,' I would then ask them...."at what point do you append the title RECORDING ENGINEER to your title?"
Inevitably, I would get all the wrong answers: When your really good. When you know how to handle all that gear. When your graduate from school!!!

There is only one answer....When you cultivate your own cliental who seek out your work due to the professional conduct and product they have come to trust you for.
I NEVER, EVER introduce myself as a recording engineer, but I do have my own cliental.

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

now that's really easy to get the MOTU inputs to the outputs. Start CueMix, get two channels up in each of the four "mixers" (and pan one hard L other hard R), route the mixers to the analogue outputs, there you go.
I do think, however, that the Mackie might have slightly (!) better pres than the MOTU. Wouldn't risk any syncing issues though, otherwise you could take his ADAT out.

OTOH: if he wants to try out his setup, he ought to bring his own mics or contact you a few days in advance for a connection "rehearsal".

Yowza! Ya see, pkautzsch's very reasonable suggestion to give Dude my outputs via CueMix is exactly the kind of thing I would feel HUGELY uncomfortable doing for the first time on gig day!! I would want time and safe opportunities to practice routing signals inside and outside the box first before I would ever consider doing it in a clutch situation like I'm going into. And, truth be told, I do not have time this week for said practice. (Did I fail to mention that I will be speaking program notes to the audience that I have yet to write? D'oh!!) Pass me two of any pills ya' got!!

Lastly, pkautzsch, you may very well be right about the Mackie's mic pres, as compared with the MOTU ones, but I only use one of the MOTU's pres (for the center channel, the KM184). The Beyer pair are run through two channels of John Hardy M1, and the TLM 103's are fed to an FMR RNP. (Upcoming slut purchase no. 1: two more channels of John Hardy. Yeah, baby!) Thanks for all the support

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by ArtGarceau

Completely justified in your decision. Can we hear some of your recordings?

I would love to sh-sh-sh-share a few examples! Is there a convenient way to post examples on Gearslutz?

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[Remoteness]

Click on the reply button and upload your mp3 file using the manage attachment button below the reply window.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by loranoyd

Yowza! Ya see, pkautzsch's very reasonable suggestion to give Dude my outputs via CueMix is exactly the kind of thing I would feel HUGELY uncomfortable doing for the first time on gig day!! I would want time and safe opportunities to practice routing signals inside and outside the box first before I would ever consider doing it in a clutch situation like I'm going into. And, truth be told, I do not have time this week for said practice. (Did I fail to mention that I will be speaking program notes to the audience that I have yet to write? D'oh!!) Pass me two of any pills ya' got!!

Lastly, pkautzsch, you may very well be right about the Mackie's mic pres, as compared with the MOTU ones, but I only use one of the MOTU's pres (for the center channel, the KM184). The Beyer pair are run through two channels of John Hardy M1, and the TLM 103's are fed to an FMR RNP. (Upcoming slut purchase no. 1: two more channels of John Hardy. Yeah, baby!) Thanks for all the support

I don't actually know the Onyx pres, but have been told they were a lot better than 1604 or other older Mackie pres. I do use the MOTU896, and I use its pres regularly. They are good enough for classical concerts when you know how to handle them.
Learning how to route the inputs to the outputs is a matter of about 10 minutes. Maybe you will find that time - you just need to remember: The 896's line outputs are XLR only, and many other devices' line inputs are TRS. It's your "recording engineer" who would need to bring them (and he'd probably have to buy or solder them before). As you have only 2 hrs, it's really best to just not interface with him.

[bishopthomas]

For me it would come down to whether or not this guy is a threat. You are selling copies and it seems like he wants to get in on the action, or just have his for free. I would be very upfront about everything. I, personally, would tell him that there's no problem with him patching in, but under my terms. 1. The recordings are for his own personal use, whether he just wants an archive or wants to practice his skills. 2. He supplies all necessary cables, adapters, etc. In other words, his rig is his rig. 3. Ample time should be given for setup. Recording the group in which you're playing is difficult enough; you don't need the added stress of getting someone else's gear setup for them.

Anything could happen with this if you allow him to do it. He could try to steal your work and sell the CD's that he mixed. Or you may find that you develop a good working relationship with him and it benefits both of you. You could learn from each other and have fun, or he could just get in the way and be a bother. You just have to make sure that you control which direction the situation takes.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I don't actually know the Onyx pres, but have been told they were a lot better than 1604 or other older Mackie pres. I do use the MOTU896, and I use its pres regularly. They are good enough for classical concerts when you know how to handle them.

I owned the 1640 for a while and it was MUCH better than previous Mackie preamps. I've never used the 896, though, so can't compare the two. I would definitely not trade John Hardy for Mackie, and the original poster should not rely on other's gear by using the Onyx as front end.

[pkautzsch]

No way in trading John Hardy or other more expensive pres for cheaper ones.
And a very good point about the "colleague" maybe stealing your job.

I once did a choir+orchestra recording. The orchestra had hired me. I set up my stuff, and then this home recordist who had been hired by the choir came in. We both were amused at the communication between choir and orchestra, but he wasn't amused that I had a mic stand right in the middle, 3rd row: "This will introduce terrible phase issues on my setup!!!" (his setup was two TLM103 into a "really warm" tube preamp into a Sony DAT Walkman, with the mics being placed in about row 14, spaced exactly 17.5 cm, angled EEEXXXAAACCCTTTLLLYYY 23° - you can see where this leads).
Of course my mic stands (carrying KM183s and 6 Schoeps spots) were NOT touched.

[KingDaddyO]

Hi Lloyd,

I agree with everyone's advice on this. You seem like a decent fellow and are being more than gracious with this guy. Honestly, I think he's got quite a pair asking you to patch in without any prior contact, and at the head-end, and right before a show no less.

He sounds like bad news to me. I'd offer to sell him a copy at a discount if you really want to befriend him. Or you could take things 1 step at a time with him (tiny steps, like a mm ) ... see how he reacts to not getting what he wants immediately, just because he 'talks the talk'.

[Plush]

He didn't get the job to record, he just showed up.

He didn't arrange anything in advance with you, he just showed up.

You handled it properly and there is no reason needed to tell him no.

[Remoteness]

Word!

[loranoyd]

... and the picture that's emerging is saying, "Maybe some other time--after we've practiced the actual signal routing a few times." As it is, I can get into the hall ONLY 2 hours before concert time. In those two hours I have to set up the gear, and get ready to lead the viola section. Until Dude and I have a few practice sessions, there ain't no way he's bellying up to my bar! You guys are the best. My sincerest thanks for all the helpful advice and cautionary tales.

And since I am a big believer in the adage: "Put up, or shut up," may I humbly present a little trifle for your listening pleasure. This track comes from the most recent concert, December 3, 2006. It is the Perpetuum Mobile by Johann Strauss. I think it shows off the orchestra nicely. And I hope it shows at least a modicum of recording ability. All comments and criticisms welcome. The mp3 conversion was done at 191k to keep the file size under control. It's not too bad, compared to the original aiff. Enjoy.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by loranoyd

... and the picture that's emerging is saying, "Maybe some other time--after we've practiced the actual signal routing a few times." As it is, I can get into the hall ONLY 2 hours before concert time. In those two hours I have to set up the gear, and get ready to lead the viola section. Until Dude and I have a few practice sessions, there ain't no way he's bellying up to my bar! You guys are the best. My sincerest thanks for all the helpful advice and cautionary tales.

And since I am a big believer in the adage: "Put up, or shut up," may I humbly present a little trifle for your listening pleasure. This track comes from the most recent concert, December 3, 2006. It is the Perpetuum Mobile by Johann Strauss. I think it shows off the orchestra nicely. And I hope it shows at least a modicum of recording ability. All comments and criticisms welcome. The mp3 conversion was done at 191k to keep the file size under control. It's not too bad, compared to the original aiff. Enjoy.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

Very nice, smooth freq. response across the board, nicely detailed, low noise, and last but certainly not least ... excellent dynamic range!

I also have no formal training in audio (there's quite a few of us here actually), but I'd have to say that IMO ... this recording displays at the very least, 'a modicum of recording ability'. Several in fact

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

Very nice, smooth freq. response across the board, nicely detailed, low noise, and last but certainly not least ... excellent dynamic range!

I also have no formal training in audio (there's quite a few of us here actually), but I'd have to say that IMO ... this recording displays at the very least, 'a modicum of recording ability'. Several in fact

Thanks, Thom, now you've really done it. Such kind words are sure to go straight to my head! In all seriousness, I had been really, really hesitant to put my work "out there," but now I'm glad I did. I appreciate you taking the time to listen.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[KingDaddyO]

Aw shucks...

Well Lloyd ... at the great risk of arming you with even more 'head swelling' ammunition, I offer this final insight: It takes a fair amount of courage to hang yourself out there, posting samples of your work in any forum, much less one as active as gearslutz. And since you are juggling the roles of sound reinforcement technician/engineer and performing artist, you risk double the rejection if someone doesn't like what you've done. But I don't think you and your lady engineer have anything to worry about. I know I'd be thrilled if someone were able to bring the same professionalism to the table as y'all obviously do, and then make a copy of the performance available later. That's cool. I'm sure the orchestra members are thrilled to have a high-quality recording of their performance.

Anyway, it seems like you've got a pretty good gig happening there. Thanks for sharing. BTW - I'm from the greater Pittsburgh area originally. It's always good to hear about happenings from folks 'back home'. thumbsup

[Recording David]

Very nice stereo imaging.

Tell us about mixdown/post.

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Very nice stereo imaging.

Tell us about mixdown/post.

Thanks for the opportunity, David. All mixing and post done "in the box" using Digital Performer (4 point something--not the latest version) using a Mac PowerBook G4. Analogue to digital conversion courtesy of a MOTU 896HD. Monitored through home stereo in living room: Adcom preamp and Adcom amp driving a pair of Snell Towers. Nothing fancy going on in the mixing. Just careful gain staging with the aid of trim plug-ins on the four discreet tracks (1 stereo, 3 mono). I record at 24/14.4k. I consider the stereo track the main pair. It consists of a pair of Beyer ribbons in Blumlein. The pair is directly in the center of the stage, about 15 feet behind and 9 feet above the conductor. I adjust trim on this track until I like it (and, more importantly, until my wife likes it). Slight hole in the middle is taken care of by a single KM184 mounted on same pole as the ribbons. It gets added in to mix next. Lastly come the TLM 103s mounted on their own stands, about 15 feet on either side of the main triad; same height. More than adding to the string sound, these flanking mics serve to pick up our percussion battery (located more on the left side of the stage, rather than toward the rear) and lower brass (located more to the right of center). More trim to taste. Stereo track is centered, center mic is dead center, and the flanking mics are panned less than hard left/right. In Digital Performer, the pans look more like the 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock positions (hard left/right appears as 7 and 5 o'clock on my computer) And that's it. I do not ride faders, ever. I can hear artificial gain changes a mile off. Probably because I'm no good at it. I experimented for awhile with using the MasterWorks limiter as a final limiter on the stereo buss, but I have been unhappy with the sound of the limiter. I'd rather clip a few samples here and there. Digital Performer registers clipping, but I can't hear it in the final stereo mix, so I don't worry about it. I bounce to disk, convert to 16 bit, then export as AIFF. On rare occasions, I might gain stage an individual piece, but mostly I use one group of settings for the entire concert.

Really, as far as I'm concerned, most of the credit is due to the conductor. He has a fantastic ear for detail, and superfine musicianship skills. He balances everything: keeping the strings quiet to allow for solo winds or brass to come through. Might be all those recordings he did as a second violinist in the Philadelphia Orchestra with Eugene Ormandy. He has stories, boy... It's clear to me that he carefully observed everything going on around him at those sessions. The way he balances the orchestra reminds me of the old Dorati recordings for Mercury. All mixing done by conductor. He makes the process of producing the final mix a very simple one, bless his little heart! So, what do you think?

Regards,

Lloyd

[loranoyd]

Well, the concert was this past Sunday, and all went fine (but, of course, not according to plan!) The "Recording Engineer" never contacted me, so I was unable to offer him the opportunity to record the dress rehearsal. The day of the dress rehearsal he doesn't seek me out to continue our discussion from the preveious Tuesday. I decide to let sleeping dogs lie. Who knows? Maybe he saw the error of his ways, and thought better of his proposal. In any event, he stops by where the rig is stationed, and I show him around. His only comment was: "Wow, lots of blinking lights," in his best I'm-too-cool-for-this-school voice. Oh goody, thinks I, a pissing contest right before show time. I offer him the monitor headphones to take a listen as the orchestra is warming up, and, wouldn't you know it THERE ARE FREAKIN' GREMLINS IN THE MONITOR MIX!!!!!! Damn it!!!! Fifteen minutes to show time, and it sounds like rice krispies through a bad distortion box! Lucky for me it turns out that all I had was a loose connection at the center mic input to the MOTU 896HD. Problem solved, but Dude's smirk tells me I lost this battle. What a bunch of sour grapes! Anyway, the concert went very well. The conductor was pleased with the performance (except for the 15 year old wunderkind who massacred the first movement of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto no. 2, but that, as they say, is a story for another day) The recording, at first hearing, sounds really good (see Rachmaninoff exception, above), and I'll try to get a brief excerpt up soon.

My sincerest thanks for everyone's support. You guys are the best.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[charlienyc]

don't worry Lloyd, you'll get him next time