Live Sound - what dirty tricks do other engineers play?

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by saggsy

What I am worried about though is if I do decide to mix a gig for a band - I show up (at what time, i dont know?), there is probably a house engineer or other 'bigshot' engineer mixing the headline act for example.

Quite possibly!

Originally Posted by saggsy

I would be unfamiliar with the board and what ever outboard they have and how its patched (how much time would i have familiarising myself with such things)

That would depend on your arrival time. Anything from a whole day before to 5 minutes before the show !

Don´t expect soundchecks at festivals. Most of the time you´ll get a linecheck ( on phones or FOH monitors ) 15 minutes for show.

Setchange times would vary between an hour to 10 minutes. If 10 minutes you need to be at least 2 people in your crew. One on stage and you at FOH.

Originally Posted by saggsy

and also the house/bigshot engineer could sabotage something to make my job sound shit - ie. turning the subs down or something like that.

That would be very unprofessional of the house engineer/headline act engineer. I´m sure it happens and if it does, make sure you tell the appropriate peaople, i.e. the promoter, the owner of the rental company, your band mates etc.....

Originally Posted by saggsy

I hope i have made some kind of sense in that rant but if anyone does understand where im coming from any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers from
Matt

Make sure you act professionally and don´t make it complicated for yourself. Go easy on your demands. More is less and less is more !!

* Make a realistic rider of what equipment you would like to use.
* Be prepared with a stageplot with clear symbols of how you´d like the stage setup.
* Where powerdrops for the backline needs to be.
* What equipment you bring.
* Channel list with stagepositions, two alternatives for each mic/di, what stand is to be used
* Monitorpreferences for the band
* Backlinespecifications ( if provided locally )
* Contact info. Names, Emailadresses, slow mail, telephonenumbers ( including cellphones ), faxnumbers

Hth

WT - Been at FOH for almost 20 years....

[saggsy]

Thanks for your quick reply waveterm, you make things sound less daunting for sure. I'm pretty good at keeping organised like you suggest (and to see it dot pointed out like that is cool).

My other big concern is feedback. I know it sounds simple but coming from a studio background, the thought of feedback freaks me out. I guess it can only origiinate from a mic that is being moved around (ie singer) cause all other open mics will have thier gain structure set already, but still how do you cope with everyone in the venue looking at YOU when feedback or other sound related sh!t occurs?

Also how would i prepare myself to take the plunge for that first gig? I cant really practice can I ??

Thanks again from
Matt

[JDunkley]

you can practise a bit. if you have access to a rehersal room with monitors rent yourself a couple of hours and play with the graphic on the monitors. Find out where feedback occurs and use the graphic to cure it. Just get used to hearing a frequency and finding it on the graphic.

If your opening for other bands though their engineer should have the graphics set already and you wont be allowed to touch them. In this case if something feeds back turn it down a little until it stops. you also have the channel EQ to play with as well.

Ive never known another engineer try and sabotage a support band. You might not get all the channels you want but thats about it. At the most you might not be allowed to be as loud as them.

I did a small tour recently where as support we were not allowed a sound check even though there was about 2 hours spare to do one. Tour Manager/FOH guys rule. Ive done enough festivals for this to not be a problem.

Just get in there and have ago at least you only have to mix it once

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by saggsy

Thanks for your quick reply waveterm, you make things sound less daunting for sure. I'm pretty good at keeping organised like you suggest (and to see it dot pointed out like that is cool).

My other big concern is feedback. I know it sounds simple but coming from a studio background, the thought of feedback freaks me out. I guess it can only origiinate from a mic that is being moved around (ie singer) cause all other open mics will have thier gain structure set already, but still how do you cope with everyone in the venue looking at YOU when feedback or other sound related sh!t occurs?

, just ignore it and turn the monitors down a bit.

Feedback isn´t limited to only vocalmics. Kickdrum mics and floortoms have been known to feedback before.....low volume acoustic instruments can be a pain in the ass too.

Originally Posted by saggsy

Also how would i prepare myself to take the plunge for that first gig? I cant really practice can I ??

Set your priorities when facing that first gig. If you can´t eq a kickdrumchannel to something useful within 30 seconds then something is very wrong ( bad PA, bad mic, bad drum, bad engineer ? lol ).

Make it a priority to set levels before delving into the finer details of getting the perfect hihatsound. Set rough eq´s ( or no eq, just highpassfiltering ) and then move onto setting a good balance between instruments and vocals. When that is set you start to sculpture the mix with eq.

If you´re faced with also doing the monitorsoud from FOH you really need to be in charge of the sound/linecheck.

Use a talkbackmic routed to all monitors ( and loud !! ). You are in charge. Tell each musician to shut up and do what you want them to do. The less stress you have the faster you´ll get it done. After you´re finished with each mic/source you can let them play and or finetune their settings.

When setting the monitorlevels, concentrate on getting vocals and DI´d sources ( synths, backtracks, DI´d acoustic guitars ) into the monitors first. When that is done and you are k with the rough FOH balance, let them play a section of a tune and then stop, giving you comments on what they NEED in the monitors. Remember that it is they who are on stage and needs to hear certain things to be happy. However odd it might seem for the keyboardplayer to have congas blistering loud in his monitor, thats the way he likes it. All these requirements should have been discussed beforehand so that you have a rough idea of what the band might need.

Originally Posted by saggsy

Thanks again from
Matt

You´re welcome,

WT

[saggsy]

Cool,
As far as setting the FOH main graphic EQ, i've seen a guy years ago set the graphic by setting up the main vocal mic on a stand centre of stage, (prior to that i believe he had set a decent pre gain level) then he would notify everyone in the room (crew setting up and the like) that unless they wanted to endure feedback then to leave the room for 15mins. He would then proceed from a flat EQ to raise each frequency band untill it caused feedback and then he would pull it back a few db below the feedback level, he would repeat this for each band and then end up with an EQ that was 'tuned' to the room so as not to feed back when the gig was in full swing.

Does this sound like the right method behind tuning a room or was this guy doing the wrong thing?

From
Matt

[waveterm]

That´s the first time I´ve ever heard of anyone trying to tune a PA that way !!

It doesn´t sounds like it would be the most efficient way of doing it.

Burn a reference CD with songs and sounds that you are familiar with. That sounds truly good. Some songs in the style of the band you´re mixing.

Use that as a start for doing the eq. Remember to keep it simple. Massive eq cuts and boosts are rarely any good. If you work with good rentalcompanies they should have their shit together. But, don´t always trust the housenegineer. Use your ears. If it sounds good, it is good.

Later, when you´re more secure with this new career, consider getting a laptop with a realtimeanlyserprogram. Like SIA Smaart for PC or Spectrafoo for MAC.

Get an Eartworks M-30 reference microphone and start analyzing the soundsystem. This will let you check for possible time domainproblems between subs and tops and even between low/mid and high in 2/3 way boxes. Phaseissues will be visible too !

A small toolbox with tools and problemsolvers will help you a lot when being on the road. Phasereverse adapters, adapters fron phono to ZLR, jack to XLR, balanced to unbalanced. 2-4 of each type is gold to have !!

If ýou can get paid for it, consider bringing a small rack with a loudspeakerprocessor/equalizer you know inside out ( BSS Soundweb is a very good unit that will let you use it as 8 EQ´s one day and 8 compressors the next day ).

A guitartuner is cool to have.

Bring your own backlinecables. Especially if you´re using a lot of synths. You could even bring your own DI´s and or mics.

There are lots of things that you should prepair for before going on a tour.

* Clothes warm and cool, work and leisure
* Toilet articles
* What type of bags do you need/feel comfortable in hauling around
* Passport
* Visas
* Credit cards ( at least two brands with enough credit so you can pay for a room and a ticket home )
* Money in the currency of the country
* Spare glasses !!
* Lenses and lensfluid
* Something to read while travelling

WT

[JamesMcp]

in your rider/checklist from before, i often include (roughly) what each muso wants in their wedge. i work for a production company and have seen on maybe one or two gig info sheets a brief explanation of what everyone wanted. we had everything routed and roughly assigned before the band showed up and so sound check became a chance to fine tune it and the gig was awesome.

as for tricks that other engineers may play, if you hear something out of place, ask the house tech if there is anything not right with the system. ask him to check the subs for example. im willing to bet someone would find it harder to consciously lie to your face then go behind your back and do something to stuff you up.

i dont like the mentality that house techs dont like you touching their eq. youre mixing the gig and if you need to adjust something: do it. if they dont want you to change anything they are generally a poor engineer who doesnt know how to properly eq a room back to how they had it, and therefore, probably havent done it right in the first place. you'll find the best engineers are the ones that let you change whatever you need to for the gig, and then are good enough themselves to set it all back up again for "house" duties.

and finally, for how things are patched, generally there are standards that people adhere to and you can guess where things will be placed. all effects are usually brought back into channels, look at how many comps there are, if there are 8, theyre probably across the groups, maybe a stereo pair across front, if there are more, theyre likely to be on the vocals. and then even during soundcheck, just look at whats lighting up when you send signal out your auxs, one by one. things like this, you can generally figure out a system pretty quickly.

and practice. someone mentioned festivals, these are so good for training your ears and responses to frequencies and just mixing lots of different acts. once you use your ears gigs become easier.

Goodluck,
James.

[xmostynx]

hey guys!

Before i run off to school- I work at a casino, where we do no sound check, basicly just run line levels make sure we're okay in the phones...

Get a quick setup of 3 monitor mixes (all run from the FOH console)

and then go.

Its fast-and simple... when i first started I was trained by my cheif engineer now..and its gotten to the point that within the first 3 songs, the mix is pretty nailed.

2 stages, in 2 different rooms.

my best advice and i can elaborate more when i'm out of class...but i would say, when your running live sound fast, and you don't have the luxury of a sound check...

know alot about how hard your pushing your pre's. That will make the world of difference in your monitors feeding back etc.

Don't push your mic pre's hard, we are using A&H GL 4000 consoles, and i keep my mic pre's around 1 o'clock ..and i don't send anything up to my monitors above 2 o clock without turning down my mic pre..

when you give a mic more gain the "balloon" around the mic gets bigger and its got alot more chances of feeding back, when you reduce it, that balloon of feedback is going to get smaller so you can push it a little harder in the monitors..

make sure you ring out your monitors, or be REALLY good at understanding feedback rings...so you can puill them out of your graphic as soon as it starts to go.

i usually have no problem with feedback...and if you know your pushing your monitors hard, and someone is like i can't hear myself. turn things OUT of their monitor mix.. the more things in the mix, the more phase problems you have on stage, the louder your stage mixs are, and the more drowned out somebody's vocal is..

my rule of thumb, if you can't hear your own voice on stage, you don't need the guitar bass, kick, snare, and hat in your wedge...

common sense!

[JDunkley]

Although we moan about them its also worth sending time as a house tech if you can. You get an endless supply of different bands to practise with and you have to learn the system, how its set up and how to fault find quickly and accurately.
People seem to moan about house techs but i was one for 4 years before going out and touring and its where i learnt my trade.

[JamesMcp]

im not sure anyone is moaning about house engineers, theyre invaluable to ask questions and get to know a system quickly. they can however pose an obstacle when they get precious about their system.

i believe that whoever is mixing any gig that night, they own the show. the engineers are there to make the musicians happy with their sound so they can deliver a great performance, and the house tech is there to make sure the engineers are happy. if anyone pulls a dirty trick or gets protective of their settings, they're not doing their job properly and ultimately making the whole vibe of the show worse than it could be. i see house techs as facilitators when a contract engineer comes in. they know their systems, and the band engineers know their group and their artist's sound. 2 different angles to achieving the same result, a great sounding show.

and when there isnt an outside engineer mixing, then house engineers do a great job at mixing bands that come through their venue.

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

when you give a mic more gain the "balloon" around the mic gets bigger and its got alot more chances of feeding back, when you reduce it, that balloon of feedback is going to get smaller so you can push it a little harder in the monitors..

Huh ? This is not true.

If you, fo instance, lower the micgain by 6dB and turn up the sends 6 dB there is no difference in feedbacksensitivity.

Likewise, if you turn up the micgain 6 dB and lower all sends by 6dB, you have the same level.



WT

[Protools Guy]

In the 20 years I've been doing this (as a guitarist, not engineer... but I hear all the reports from our engineer and crew every night), I can tell you that 99% of the guys out there are respectful and not interested in sabotaging our set. If we're the support band, the engineer of the headliner wants to have the top 5db of headroom so he'll limit the system. That's fair.

There's only been one time where we were sand-bagged (had the power amps turned down on us) and that was caught before we went on.

The most difficult to find stunt was when the engineer of a support band (when we were the headliner) cranked a reverb send all the way up on the cowbell. Since the cowbell wasn't played for a while, our engineer was having a hell of a time wondering why the reverb on the kit (and everything that bled into that mic) was sounding so weird. It took a while, but eventually our engineer found it. This teaches us the invaluable lesson of charting the console and double checking it, even if your channels are supposed to remain untouched.

Good luck bro...

Anyone of you guys proficient with acoustics and how to set up a PA of 8 Subs and 4 Tops in a medium large hall that has reverb/hall problems?

It is a rather large school auditorium with flat, wooden floor, concrete back-wall, glass windows to both sides and diffusor treatment at the top.

I have been asked to mix some bands there once (just visiting the show, actually), because people know I do a good job at eq and know some stuff about acoustic design, and while I made it bearable, it still sucked.

What I plan on trying (gonna be Rock and after that a DJ), is setting up 2 stacks with the stuff on the stage, tops aimed a little bit to center (as narrow spread as possible), which is our usual setup.

Alternatives include a 2x2 setup with one stack at each corner of the "dancefloor" area. This might give me phase issues, though, but maybe I could block out the reflections better.


Any ideas?
I expect to have at least two hours to experiement, but I need a sound battle plan first.

[frans]

There seems to be quite some interest in the secrets of FOH...

I`m a house tech for some years now and my 2 cents are:
-contact the places you will be playing before you get there and have a talk.
-be professional, friendly, honest and prepared - because IF you are you can be very good or total crap and you will have some help and respect. We all started somewhere so no matter how good/bad you are, there will always be someone better or worse.

If a guy/girl/pony wants to mix their buddies band it is allright for me, as long as they don't wreck any gear (did happen twice). If they want help, I help. If they want none, okay so.

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by zwaps

Anyone of you guys proficient with acoustics and how to set up a PA of 8 Subs and 4 Tops in a medium large hall that has reverb/hall problems?

Sure, but it all depends.....

Originally Posted by zwaps

It is a rather large school auditorium with flat, wooden floor, concrete back-wall, glass windows to both sides and diffusor treatment at the top.

First, drape off the backwall with a heavy cloth to minimixe reflection in the mids and highs. Second, avoid pointing the PA at the sidewalls.

Originally Posted by zwaps

I have been asked to mix some bands there once (just visiting the show, actually), because people know I do a good job at eq and know some stuff about acoustic design, and while I made it bearable, it still sucked.

What about the stage levels ? How loud was it on stage ? Did the marshall and fender amps point out in the audinence ?

Originally Posted by zwaps

What I plan on trying (gonna be Rock and after that a DJ), is setting up 2 stacks with the stuff on the stage, tops aimed a little bit to center (as narrow spread as possible), which is our usual setup.

You need to know the horisontal and vertical dispersion of the top cabinets to know how to aim them at the audience area.

Two tops with a horisontal dispersion of 60 degrees need to be separated quite alot to avoid combfiltering effects. On the other hand a 120 degree dispersion (2x60 ) would probably make it impossible to avoid the sidewalls.

Originally Posted by zwaps

Alternatives include a 2x2 setup with one stack at each corner of the "dancefloor" area. This might give me phase issues, though, but maybe I could block out the reflections better.

I doubt that it will work for the rockband but the disco might work.

Also you´ll loose the advantage of coupling in the subs and you´ll get more problems with nulls and peaks in the subregion.

WT

[xmostynx]

Originally Posted by waveterm

Huh ? This is not true.

If you, fo instance, lower the micgain by 6dB and turn up the sends 6 dB there is no difference in feedbacksensitivity.

Likewise, if you turn up the micgain 6 dB and lower all sends by 6dB, you have the same level.



WT

lowering the gain on a mic makes the mic much less sensative... i think thats pretty universal..?

making a mic less sensative would lower the mics chance of feeding back..

not saying it WONT feed back..but you can push your monitor sends a little harder, when you do back down your gain a little, giving overall more volume to the monitor and less sensativity to the mic...

i'm not saying its DRASTIC- but i do believe its true.

you can get a few more dB out of your monitor this way...the post is FOH tricks right?

i'm not a monitor engineer... so i'm open for debate!

[waveterm]

I guess you need to reread my reply.....



WT

[Jim Williams]

The dirtiest trick live mixers do is to lift the kick drum 6 db louder than anything else, including lead vocals. It's sort of a drag when you pay a couple hundred bucks to see an act and all you can hear is some dumb ass mixer getting off on the "power" of the kick drum.

Yelling at them seems to do no good (I'm very pro-active and demand good service), but gathering a threatening crowd around them has worked. "If you want to get out of here alive, fix the damm mix!"

Here's a hint for all you live mixers, DISCO IS DEAD!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Here's a hint for all you live mixers, DISCO IS DEAD!

No shit !

Tell that to Scissor Sisters.......

WT

[danno812]

Here is one trick I've seen someone pull...not on me fortunately. You may come across some boards that generate tones, often with a level control on that tone. Be sure this tone generator is off (or turned all the way down) when you go to do your set. It's very obnoxious to just barely hear a tone throughout a set only to discover someone before you left this tone generator on and just enough to be audible.

Mean tricktutt

[analogtodd]

I've seen several "studio engineers" get their asses handed to them in a live setting.

Its a totally different environment. Get familiar with the gear you will be provided (if any... )

And to echo a few other sentiments on here, if you can't make a sound in 30seconds, something is wrong, are you on the wrong channel? Are you trying to get a kick drum sound and you have the snare PFL???

It happens...

Also, don't assume everything works!!!! That compressor you think you are going to use, might have just been blown the fark up last night, or its been dead for 2 yrs and no one has taken it out of the rack...
Usually though, everyone is willing to give a fair shake and help out, but y'now how things go....

Live sound is usually fast and furious, it'll fly right by you and you have to be prepared to make QUICK decisions. Keep cool, keep calm.

[xmostynx]

Originally Posted by waveterm

I guess you need to reread my reply.....



WT

Okay- I re-read your reply and i still know if you lower the mics gain, you can get more out of the monitor before feedback.

If you don't believe me try!


As as far as running the kick drum 6dB louder- there is a right way, and a wrong way to mix live music...The right way to mix live music is to mix a big warm mix. With lots of low end, and smooth highs without harshness.

We just tossed a guy who was afraid to hit the subs...and its a drag to go to a live show where it sounds like a cheap car stereo..

you bring all these amps and equipment to not be able to feel a kick drum hit your chest?


and live engineers are so cranky...losen up- this is fun stuff

[Zwinter]

Originally Posted by monkeyt

I've seen several "studio engineers" get their asses handed to them in a live setting.

Its a totally different environment. Get familiar with the gear you will be provided (if any... )

And to echo a few other sentiments on here, if you can't make a sound in 30seconds, something is wrong, are you on the wrong channel? Are you trying to get a kick drum sound and you have the snare PFL???

It happens...

Also, don't assume everything works!!!! That compressor you think you are going to use, might have just been blown the fark up last night, or its been dead for 2 yrs and no one has taken it out of the rack...
Usually though, everyone is willing to give a fair shake and help out, but y'now how things go....

Live sound is usually fast and furious, it'll fly right by you and you have to be prepared to make QUICK decisions. Keep cool, keep calm.

I would also add that at some point in your life you are going to have a bad day. You will have to deal with terrible feedback, dead gear, and anything else you can think of. You need to get over and past these days, because it happens to everyone. The good people learn from them and move on.

If you have never done live sound I suggest doing some smaller shows, in bars where people are drunk and can't hear anyways. You don't want to start off it front of a couple thousand people to only fail miserably.

Just so you know I a couple years ago I got free tickets to Peter Frampton and Journey. I really wanted to see Peter Frampton and figured I would then stick around for Journey. Frampton's sound was amazing; especially considering this was in a huge basket ball arena. Then Journey got on the stage. Their engineer had nothing but trouble with feedback occurring all over. I was sitting in the 16 row on the isle and I could be any more on axis with the bottom cabinet in the line array. So anytime things got out of control my ears suffered. After two songs I left.

Hopefully this shows you that we can all, even the biggest engineer, have bad days.

[Mr. Man]

Originally Posted by saggsy

Hi,

What I am worried about though is if I do decide to mix a gig for a band - I show up (at what time, i dont know?), there is probably a house engineer or other 'bigshot' engineer mixing the headline act for example. I would be unfamiliar with the board and what ever outboard they have and how its patched (how much time would i have familiarising myself with such things) and also the house/bigshot engineer could sabotage something to make my job sound shit - ie. turning the subs down or something like that.

I've done live sound before and unfortunately that happens. I've heard about bands who set up a live gig with their sound guy running the house under instructions to not turn on the subs until they (the main act/band) gets on. It gives the impression that the main act is more massive and sounding better. It happens. If there's a engineer there, asking whether he's affiliated with a band will tell you where his loyalty lies.

As far as sound checks and feedback fighting goes, you just have to learn to work fast. This isn't like in the studio where you have all day to EQ a snare until it sounds perfect. Your fingers have to be flying across pots when you get a sound-check (assuming you do get one).

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

Okay- I re-read your reply and i still know if you lower the mics gain, you can get more out of the monitor before feedback.

If you don't believe me try!

Ok then !

I still suggest you re-read my reply.

Especially where I state that if you lower the mic-gain with 6db and then add 6 db on the sends you will get the same !

x - 6 + 6 = x

Get it ?



WT

[xmostynx]

I see where your getting at.

But we are talking how sensative a mic is. A SM58 when cranked on a pre will feed back into a monitor. Once you ring out that monitor, and lower the gain on the mic-you will be able to send MORE into the monitor-

does that make me more clear? i do it everyweekend- with a pretty large system.

i suggest you try-

Originally Posted by waveterm

Ok then !

I still suggest you re-read my reply.

Especially where I state that if you lower the mic-gain with 6db and then add 6 db on the sends you will get the same !

x - 6 + 6 = x

Get it ?



WT

[analogtodd]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

Okay- I re-read your reply and i still know if you lower the mics gain, you can get more out of the monitor before feedback.

If you don't believe me try!


As as far as running the kick drum 6dB louder- there is a right way, and a wrong way to mix live music...The right way to mix live music is to mix a big warm mix. With lots of low end, and smooth highs without harshness.

We just tossed a guy who was afraid to hit the subs...and its a drag to go to a live show where it sounds like a cheap car stereo..

you bring all these amps and equipment to not be able to feel a kick drum hit your chest?


and live engineers are so cranky...losen up- this is fun stuff

I'm not trying to pile on here, but a 6db reduction and a 6db gain equal each other out....

If you reduce 6db at the mic channel, you'll have to make that gain up somewhere in your signal path before it hits speakers, so I'm not sure what you mean????

OR, if what you are saying is reducing 6db means less feedback because... well, its 6db quieter, then yeah, I'm all about that!!! Less volume = less feedback

[analogtodd]

Originally Posted by xmostynx

I see where your getting at.

But we are talking how sensative a mic is. A SM58 when cranked on a pre will feed back into a monitor. Once you ring out that monitor, and lower the gain on the mic-you will be able to send MORE into the monitor-

does that make me more clear? i do it everyweekend- with a pretty large system.

i suggest you try-

Ahhhhh
I see, I'm not sure you are talking about a 6db to 6db equation.
I think what you are talking about is, ganking (slamming) the freaking input till it screams with feedback, cutting out all those freq's that howl, then pulling the fader back to a reasonable range....

Thats probably not the right way to ring out the system, but thats just my opinion.

[MarkRB]

That's EXACTLY how you ring out a system.

Why do you think its called "ringing out"?