Question about mid-side

leddy · 29th January 2007

I thought I read somewhere that the mid and side mic do not have to be positioned in the traditional coincident way.

I have a live recording of my jazz group I am mixing. I used a Beyer M160/130 over the drums and an Earthworks TC20 on my upright bass. Obviously, the TC20 picked up all sorts of drum bleed, but if I bring up the "sides" with the M130 (without the M160), I get a really nice image of the drums and bass. Without the M160, the TC20 becomes the mid mic, no? Bringing up the M160 seems to just muddy it up and make the drums too loud.

Is it still a true stereo image since there was about 6 feet of space between the TC20 "mid" and side mics? Anyone else experience something like this?

Thanks.

pkautzsch · 29th January 2007

Well...the theory of MS and its conversion to LR is based on coincident mics.
Basically: you can only sum signals of coincident mics, since summing two mics with a space between them will result in comb-filter effects due to time differences between the signal of both mics.
This is where the 3:1 rule comes in (saying: another mic needs to be at least three times farther away from the drums than the drum mic), so if the M130 was near enough to the drums, summing shouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, you need to listen, and if you hear the drums where you want them everything is fine - if not: next time you'll know better.

But why on earth did you use an omni mic for the bass??

leddy · 29th January 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

But why on earth did you use an omni mic for the bass??

I found that there was no way to eliminate bleed. With a cardioid, the proximity effect was always a problem, and the bleed from the drums was all the higher frequency stuff. When I rolled off the proximity effect, the high-frequency bleed became even more apparant. EQ'ing it to sound right was a nightmare. I had to pick between harsh cymbals or muddy bass. I tried many different mics with similar results (M88, RE20, many condensers, etc.).

Switching to omni, I can get closer to the bass without proximity effect. The amount of bleed ends up being about the same, maybe slightly more - but it sounds natural. I can honestly not touch the EQ. Plus the Earthworks mojo picks up the attack of bass really well.

leddy · 29th January 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

This is where the 3:1 rule comes in (saying: another mic needs to be at least three times farther away from the drums than the drum mic), so if the M130 was near enough to the drums, summing shouldn't be a problem.

Makes sense. The TC20 was suspended in the bridge and the M130 was just over the drummers shoulder (snare side) maybe between 2-3 feet over the drums. So the 3:1 rule was almost followed, more or less.

billgennaro · 29th January 2007

i was actually thinking of trying this just this past weekend. since i like to single mic an acoustic guitar over my right shoulder i thought of maybe placing the side mic by the soundhole. barring phase issues i wondered how it might sound. i guess this thread is a sign that i'll have to try it for real now. sounds like it might be a fun experiment at least.

bill

29th January 2007	#1
leddy Gear addict Joined: Jan 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 498 Thread Starter	Question about mid-side I thought I read somewhere that the mid and side mic do not have to be positioned in the traditional coincident way. I have a live recording of my jazz group I am mixing. I used a Beyer M160/130 over the drums and an Earthworks TC20 on my upright bass. Obviously, the TC20 picked up all sorts of drum bleed, but if I bring up the "sides" with the M130 (without the M160), I get a really nice image of the drums and bass. Without the M160, the TC20 becomes the mid mic, no? Bringing up the M160 seems to just muddy it up and make the drums too loud. Is it still a true stereo image since there was about 6 feet of space between the TC20 "mid" and side mics? Anyone else experience something like this? Thanks.

29th January 2007	#2
pkautzsch Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 1,521	Well...the theory of MS and its conversion to LR is based on coincident mics. Basically: you can only sum signals of coincident mics, since summing two mics with a space between them will result in comb-filter effects due to time differences between the signal of both mics. This is where the 3:1 rule comes in (saying: another mic needs to be at least three times farther away from the drums than the drum mic), so if the M130 was near enough to the drums, summing shouldn't be a problem. Anyway, you need to listen, and if you hear the drums where you want them everything is fine - if not: next time you'll know better. But why on earth did you use an omni mic for the bass?? __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

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29th January 2007	#5
billgennaro Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 566	i was actually thinking of trying this just this past weekend. since i like to single mic an acoustic guitar over my right shoulder i thought of maybe placing the side mic by the soundhole. barring phase issues i wondered how it might sound. i guess this thread is a sign that i'll have to try it for real now. sounds like it might be a fun experiment at least. bill