Jazz Trio Micing Suggestions: Especially Upright Bass

[Jungle Jazz]

Hi All,

While I’ve been lurking on GS for about a year now, this is my first post. Excuse the length of this initial post, but my situation is fairly specific. I’ve read lots of previous posts here, but I haven’t yet found what I’m looking for.

First, let me thank the many of you who have been generous with your time and knowledge on these forums. I’d especially like to thank Steve Remote for his generosity with sound clips, pictures, diagrams, many informational posts, and his moderation style that has kept this particular forum a congenial and open resource for many.

Okay, here’s the short version:

I’m looking for suggestions for a dedicated upright bass microphone for use in a jazz trio. I’d like a tight pickup pattern, a roll off on the high end, and a gentle frequency slope downwards on the low end (to counterbalance any proximity effect). I’d like a fairly finished sound, one that won’t require much, if any, EQ tweaking to sit in the mix.

The long version:

Here’s my situation. I’m working on a recording project of a classic jazz trio: piano, upright bass, and drums. The room I’m working in is both pretty bright and very reflective. It’s a smallish recital hall with lots of hard surfaces. The piano is a seven foot Steinway, and it is facing out to the room in more of a classical orientation. (From the audience’s perspective, the player sits on the left with the piano extending out towards the right. The bass is to the right of the piano and then the drums on the far right.) While I can do a few minor moderations, like hanging blankets or such, I don’t have access to real gobos, and I can’t really do anything to treat the room itself.

The pianist has a strong Bill Evans influence, lots of rich harmonies, but fairly subdued dynamics. The drummer is a strong player but on the loud side. A big part of the challenge is that I’m the bass player, and I am engineering at the same time. My bass has a strong low fundamental and a clear midrange growl. It’s on the big side, a 7/8 size body, so it moves a lot of air, and it is both articulate and responsive. I’d like to capture that sound faithfully.

I’m having difficulty capturing an accurate bass sound while not also capturing drums and piano on the same mic. While I realize there are a lot of things that can potentially be done, for now, I’m trying to match the right microphone for my purpose. I also realize that lots of folks recommend just letting bleed happen, but I would like to be able to reduce at least some bleed so that I have more range in the mixing process.

Signal path:

I’m using Studio Project SP828 preamps running into an Alesis HD24XR to record on site, and then I transfer into Pro Tools M-Powered for mixing back at my “studio” (I use the term loosely). I’ve found this setup is more reliable than recording straight into Pro Tools, and the signal quality seems cleaner as well. I don’t really have any high end preamps, but I have a few others to choose from, an ART DPSII, Toft AFC-2, and Presonus Digimax FS.

Mics: I’m using the following:

Piano: AKG C414 XLS (pair), one placed near the dampers (8-10 inches up) and one placed towards the end of the piano where the strings cross. I tried a pair of Earthworks SRO (TC20) in similar positions but preferred the more present sound of the 414s.

Drums:
Kick: Audix D6
Snare: I have tried a SM57, but I didn’t really like it. It’s too narrow and compressed sounding. I have also tried a CAD M179 in hyper cardioid. I thought that was better, especially for brushes, but am not sold on it as yet. I could use some suggestions here.
OH pair: Beyerdynamic MC930 (People say these are reminiscent of the old Neumann KM84s, but I don’t know enough about the KM84s to make that comparison myself. )
Kit mic: CAD M179 in cardiod (using Steve Remote’s over the drummer’s right shoulder placement).

Upright bass:
This is what I’ve tried so far:

1) C414 in cardioid and hyper cardioid. Even when using some “virtual gobo” technique, it picked up a lot of everything else and became in effect a room mic rather than a bass mic.

2) CAD VSM1 (tube mic): unlike most tube mics, this has a strong low end, clear down to 10Hz, and a fairly bright high end, but a dip in the mid range from 5 Khz-9 Khz (which is great for removing sibilance in vocals), but it just ended up sounding muddy on the bass.

3) CAD M179 in hyper cardiod. This had better off axis rejection than the C414, but the sound was on the flat side, without the slight mid frequency rise that helps the bass cut through the mix.

4) Beyer MC930: this is a SDC with a tight pattern. Overall, I liked the quality of the sound, but there is a rise at 15Khz which picks up a lot of cymbals, and I’d like just a tad more beef on the low end.

5) Rode NT2: okay but not great.

6) Earthworks SRO: faithful sound, but as an omni, even when it is positioned close, it pick ups the whole room.

At this point, I’m considering buying a new microphone for dedicated bass duty. Ideally, I’d like to keep the cost of a new mic under $1000, but I could go a little higher for the right one.

Here’s what I’ considering:

AT 4047
Neumann TLM49 (used, if I can find one)
Beyer MC834
Or your suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

[Midlandmorgan]

I would strongly look at any of the 47-FET variants (including/especially the Oktavamod 319...) and/or a higher end dynamic...for uprights, we use either said Oktavamod, an AT 4051 (SDC omni)or Josephson C42 (SDC cardiod), sometimes an SM7...it depends on the bass, really, as to what gets the call...

All that said, I would (and do) try the Oktavamod 319 1st, then adjust if need be...since the upgrade, there has been no reason to try anything else...and for the money, its silly NOT to have one.

[pkautzsch]

Have you tried a brigde mounted SDC?
http://gearslutz.com/board/search.php?searchid=3495585

[Remoteness]

The above link doesn't seem to work.
Which thread were you trying to link?

In the mean time have you tried the upright tag at the bottom of this forum's main page yet?

[pkautzsch]

I was trying to link a search for "upright bass PITA", which yielded the four threads listed below.
Audio Technica ATM35 for upright bass: Any tips?
Live Jazz Recording help
Upright bass, still a PITA
Upright: Foam-wrapped SM57 under the bridge (pic?)

Even with a cheapo Beyerdynamic Opus 53 this worked in a big band. A hyper would be nice though, for getting less bleed. I wouldn't worry about a little EQ against cymbals.

[Remoteness]

Very cool!

[Jungle Jazz]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've read most of those threads previously, but I'll check back over them. I guess for me the problem was that there were so many different suggetions that no one obvious solution appeared from them that would suit my case.

I should add that other engineers have tried various techniques on my bass over the years. The foam wrapped 57 wedged in the bridge or under the tailpiece definitely didn't work. Anything that comes in contact with the top of the bass is going to change the sound of the instrument, especially a mic that heavy, and it it also changes the whole weight distribution of the instrument, making it feel foreign.

They have also used a U87 on bottom with a KM84 on top--I liked that sound pretty much, but it does pick up a lot of bleed in a live setting and the cost of those mics is beyond my budget.

Of course, lots of folks have recorded me using some random LDC on the body and combining it with a bridge mounted pickup. For my taste, they usually mix the pickup too high. I may end up resorting to this technique and mixing differently, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

I've also had RE20s put on my bass for live sound reinforcement work, like when playing in a pit orchestra, but I've never heard the recorded sound. I could look into dynamics. Anyone used a Heil PR40 on bass?

I haven't yet tried suspending an SDC with rubber bands between the legs of the bridge. However, some recordings that I have heard where I know that technique was used seem to have too much fingerboad sound for me. I would like some attack sound, but not in an exaggerated way. I'll give this technique a try on my bass and see what it yields.

Thanks again for all your help.

[ajfarber]

I am not a fan of recording jazz in isolation. The players prefer not to use cans. Someone like Steve Remote is always recording live gigs, so naturally there is no isolation. If a bass player is to stand near a drummer, it is impractical to use a LDC mic. I favour Ribbon mics or SCD.

All the classic Rudy Van Gelder stuff was done with SCD mics. Schoepps 221b.

With that said, good results can be obtained from dynamic mics. The EV RE20, AKG D12, Beyer M88 are all good choices.

The pencil mic in the bridge works well too, as someone else pointed out.

For a classic sound, avoid bass direct. This was never used until the 1970s.

Avoid panning drums and piano in full stereo. Use point source imaging.

[Remoteness]

Here's a picture of that rubber band thang...

[MattJazz]

Steve,
the only thing is that that mutes the bass a lot. I know it makes it easier for the engineer, but I personally would never like that on my bass. By the way, did you do Wonderful town? If so i am Regina's bassist.
Matt

[MattJazz]

I suppose that rubber bands are lot better than foam under the bridge.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by MattJazz

I suppose that rubber bands are lot better than foam under the bridge.

Yeah, I was going to say that...

Many Bassist refuse to use a foam wraped mic in the bridge, but totally welcome the rubber bands since they are completely suspended from the instrument.

[ajfarber]

Matt,

You'll get more of that "gut string finger noise" if you use a SDC mic near the bridge. Aim it at the bass on the "G" string side about even with your right hand.

You still play on gut, right?

[Jungle Jazz]

I'm curious. When you use that SDC in the bridge with the rubberband thing, do you do anything special with the mic cable? It seems that the weight of the cable could pull on the mic, making it change position.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

I'm curious. When you use that SDC in the bridge with the rubberband thing, do you do anything special with the mic cable? It seems that the weight of the cable could pull on the mic, making it change position.

Well, yes and no...

It depends on the musician. Most upright bassists do not want you to attach anything to their instrument. Gaffer's tape is obviously a serious no-no. In that situation we make sure we use strong (or multiple) rubber bands that can keep the mic in place. At times we have taped the cable to the peg and, once in a blue moon we have taped it too the instrument its self....

Ouch! Attention all upright bassists: Close your eyes and cover your ears 'cause I never said what I said!

[leddy]

I have taped the cord to the back of the tailpiece, and also used a plastic or velcro strap to tie it to a string near the tailpiece.

The weight of the microphone suspended in the bridge will still have a muting effect on the bass, but it's pretty minimal. I also use a very small block of soft foam between the mic and the top of the bass to keep the mic still in the event the cord gets tugged on.

[Jungle Jazz]

Yeah, I was thinking something like a velcro strap rather than gaff tape (yikes!). I'll give the rubberband on SDC approach a try.

I'd also like to try a ribbon mic. Any thoughts on which one? M160 perhaps? I'd rather not have to deal with the traditional figure 8 problems.

[MattJazz]

Honestly, there is no way I would let anyone put tape on my bass, anywhere.
I really like what you did Steve , with John Benitez. Did that involve any clips , tape?
I hear you Andy!! How was the Jersey hit? Sorry I missed it.
Matthew

[MattJazz]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Matt,

You'll get more of that "gut string finger noise" if you use a SDC mic near the bridge. Aim it at the bass on the "G" string side about even with your right hand.

You still play on gut, right?

I switch sometimes. I just did concert with Dee Dee Bridgewater, I used gut!
Great hall great sound guys.
I am going to post small clip if I get permission.
Matthew

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by leddy

I have taped the cord to the back of the tailpiece, and also used a plastic or velcro strap to tie it to a string near the tailpiece.

The weight of the microphone suspended in the bridge will still have a muting effect on the bass, but it's pretty minimal. I also use a very small block of soft foam between the mic and the top of the bass to keep the mic still in the event the cord gets tugged on.

I like the tailpiece and the velcro ideas, but some musicians still have a problem with it.

Which do you think has more of a muting effect, a mic suspended with rubber bands or a very small block of soft foam?

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

Yeah, I was thinking something like a velcro strap rather than gaff tape (yikes!). I'll give the rubberband on SDC approach a try.

I'd also like to try a ribbon mic. Any thoughts on which one? M160 perhaps? I'd rather not have to deal with the traditional figure 8 problems.

I don't think the M160 will work very well in a loud live situation. There's not a lot of output. YMMV.

Originally Posted by MattJazz

Honestly, there is no way I would let anyone put tape on my bass, anywhere.
I really like what you did Steve , with John Benitez. Did that involve any clips , tape?
I hear you Andy!! How was the Jersey hit? Sorry I missed it.
Matthew

As you may already know, We recorded Conrad and his band over three nights doing six sets. Most of the mics stayed the same throughout the three nights.

I wasn’t very happy with the bass sound we were getting, so we changed out some of the bass inputs for the second and third nights. I was very pleased with the alteration. We started with a MD409 hanging over the amp, An SM98 surrounded with foam in the f hole, a KM140 and a B&K on stands. We ended up with a MD441 on a stand, the SM98 in the f hole, a KM140 in the bridge suspended with rubber bands.

[MattJazz]

We ended up with a MD441 on a stand, the SM98 in the f hole, a KM140 in the bridge suspended with rubber bands.

Very cool, I am not sure if it is just John or the rubberbands. But the sound of the bass is very tight (in a good way).
I have played his bass and know it is fast and bright. I think you did a great job capturing his sound. I think the rubberbands would not work as well with darker rounder basses. The mute effect would make the bass sound underwater ish.
This is all subjective, like I said the Benitez recording is great so there you have it.
If we meet steve, you are more than welcome to try the bands on me, but only you baby!
You did not answer, did you do NPR Wonderful Town (my town) I think the name is up for change. If so we meet in back with the stack of Metric Halos.
Matthew

[Jungle Jazz]

>Which do you think has more of a muting effect, a mic suspended with rubber >bands or a very small block of soft foam?

This is a tough call and would be hard to determine without some experiementation. Attaching anything to the bridge will have a muting effect; however, the muting effect is greater if the placement is on the top of the bridge, near where the strings cross the bridge. Placing the item(s) lower on the legs would probably have less of a muting effect, as the bridge is much thicker at that point.

>I don't think the M160 will work very well in a loud live situation. There's not a lot >of output. YMMV.

So then, if you were to use a traditional figure 8 ribbon mic, how would you mute off the back side? Use one of your micro gobos?

Has anyone ever tried one of those SE Reflexion filters on upright bass?
http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html
What about Mod Traps? Anyone tried them on bass?
http://www.modtrap.com/
Or there's a new thing from SM Audio, the Mic Thing, but I don't think it is out yet: http://www.smproaudio.com/MICTHING.htm
I'm wondering if one of those kinds of products would be worthwhile for bass.

I spent the past two days experimenting with some of the previous suggestions. I have only been able to experiment with the bass by itself, without a group (esp drums), so these findings may be utterly useless in practical applications.

The ATM35 has been discontinued, but as luck would have it, my local Mom & Pop music shop had one in stock, so I picked it up. I tried it in about 20 different positions, with and without the roll off engaged. I found that the most usable sounds came from:
1) clipping it directly to the top of the bridge, in between the A and D string, with the mic pointing towards the strings at the space between the end of the fingerboard and the top of the bridge. In this position, I found the flat setting more usable, as the roll off is a bit extreme. I'd rather use a more tailored EQ roll off in the mixing stage. This provided an even sound, with clear midrange detail that ought to cut thorugh in a dense mix.

2) cllip the mic to the outer edge of the bass, in the C bout on the G string side, slightly lower than the bridge. Position the mic so that it is pointing towards the lower part of the F hole, but off axis. This provided a more open and airy sound. Here, too, I'd probably record without the roll off, but EQ during the mix.

Ovearll, the ATM35 sounded a bit like a bridge mounted pickup (like an Underwood) with the roll off engaged. I'm not certain that I'd use it by itself, but in combination with another mic, it might yield the edge part of the sound for cutting through, while an SDC or LDC (or ribbon or dynamic) could yield more of the bloom on the bottom end.

I also tried an SDC in between the legs of the bass suspended with rubber bands (need at name for that technique--bridge bouncy?). I tried two different mics here, a Beyer MC930 and an Earthworks SRO (same as TC20). The Earthworks was open, clear, and balanced. It had little if any proximity effect. However, being an omni mic, I'm certain this would pick up the whole room in a live situation. It would be ideal if the bass (or drums) were in an iso booth.

The MC930 had more of a proximity effect, but it produced a tighter, focused sound than the SRO. Plenty of mid range definition that should sit well in the mix. I'd like to try it in a live setting to see how it performed. I'd probably EQ out a bit of the high end, as it did pick up some fingerboard clatter.

I'd still like to try one of the 47 varietals (which one?) and maybe use one of the half height V-shaped gobos.

Another thing that I'm curious about is trying to mic the bass from in front and above, from a distance of 10 feet or so from the bridge. Perhaps a quality SDC in hyper cardiod in this positon might yield a usable and realistic sound. Anyone ever tried this?

[Jungle Jazz]

I forgot to mention that when testing the ATM35, the first round I did with the foam windscreen in place, but the second round of tests, the results I referred to in my last post, were done without the foam windscreen. The mic is designed to be used with the windscreen in place, so, when removing it, I had to create another way of attaching the mic to the mount. I wrapped a rubber band around the barrel of the mic and then used an additional rubberband to attach the mic to the mount. I found the response without the windscreen to be clearer and more usable.

Another option would be to simply cut the top of the windscreen off, exposing the mic head, but leave the barrel foam in place so that the mic would still fit into the mount.

[MattJazz]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...3&postcount=78

this link is from bongo at Red Rock studios. He recorded Keith Jarret live at the dear head inn with the ATM 35 on the bass. He used it on me once in a live recording with Orrin Evans. Excellent mic. Good choice.
Ask him any questions about it. The bassist from the dear head album was Gary Peacock.
Matthew

[Jim Easton]

Jungle, the TLM 49 is well balanced mic picking up both the bottom and top end of the instrument. Very John Patitucci, Eddie Gomez sounding.

I use to use a 441 in a towel under the bridge and U87 out front. Now I just use the TLM 49 by the f-hole and done-!! I either use a Dav pre or MP-2NV pre depending on the sound of the upright bass wood quality.

I found this article to be right on the money.
http://mixonline.com/news/headline/n...hwartz-111006/


all the best!

[ajfarber]

The problem with the TLM149 and the U87, is that the pick up too much other stuff (horns, drums, whatever) unless you have a BIG room a la Columbia 30st. Perhaps Right Track A509. Those mics will work fine if one chooses to isolate the bass with heavy baffling or an iso booth. I try to avoid this because I don't like to play with headphones. The 441 on a stand will work fine because of the off-axis rejection. Same with Beyer M88.

As far as a bass sound is concerned, Gomez and Patitucci are known more for their playing than their sound. When I think of a great big bass sound, I'm thinking: Paul Chambers, Wilber Ware, Sam Jones, Wendell Marshal, Ray Brown etc... or cats that are still breathing like Ben Wolfe, Reggie Veal, Dennis Irwin, Neal Miner, Rodney Whittaker etc...

I happen to favour 1 mic for the job. All of my favourite jazz recordings were done with 1 mic on the bass.

If I could have 1 good RCA 44 (or modern AEA reproduction) and a fat slutty tube pre, I'll get you a bass sound that you'll love. The player, of course, must have a good sound to begin with. This might not work so well with a "stool sitting, low action playing, thumb position soloing, black nylon plucking, amp jockey". Those guys can take their stool and go sit in the iso booth with their cans and their private-Q.

I hope I didn't offend any bass players, I'm just screwing around.

[Jungle Jazz]

Matt: Thanks for pointing out that ATM35 sample. I had heard it before, which is why I was curious to try the mic myself; although, I didn't realize it was Gary Peacock with KJ at the time (I could have guessed with the kazoo in the background). (Actually, I have been listening to the KJ trio live at the Blue Note box set recently, and I think that Bongo's sample has a nicer piano sound.)

2db: Thanks for that input on the TLM49. I saw that Mix article previously, but I wanted to hear from others who have used the mic on bass. Glad to hear that it works well for you. Did you use it for the samples on your website?

Andy: no offense taken. I play standing, with reasonably high action, using steel strings, and I have worked for a couple of decades to get a full, round acoustic sound. I use an amp live because I have to, but I use it to support my sound, not create my sound. I don't usually use an amp when recording. Of the living cats whose sound I admire, it would be somewhere between Rufus Reid and Dave Holland. I also like George Mraz's sound. For simplicity's sake, I'd prefer a single mic too, but I'm having a hard time making it work. One thing: I noticed you wrote TLM149. Was that a typo? I'm aware of an M149 or a TLM49 (which is the one I'm curious about), but not a TLM149. I bet the M149 would pick up too much other stuff--don't know about the TLM49 though. The only ribbon mic I currently have is a Nady RSM-1. Nothing fancy, but it has a pretty warm, realistic sound. I just need to figure out how to block off the back lobe to keep the room out.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by MattJazz

Very cool, I am not sure if it is just John or the rubberbands. But the sound of the bass is very tight (in a good way).
I have played his bass and know it is fast and bright. I think you did a great job capturing his sound. I think the rubberbands would not work as well with darker rounder basses. The mute effect would make the bass sound underwater ish.
This is all subjective, like I said the Benitez recording is great so there you have it.
If we meet steve, you are more than welcome to try the bands on me, but only you baby!
You did not answer, did you do NPR Wonderful Town (my town) I think the name is up for change. If so we meet in back with the stack of Metric Halos.
Matthew

I feel it's more about John and less about the rubber bands. In any event, it was a pleasure to work with him. He has a great tone.

We had six sets to get it right. We were on our way when we changed out some of the mic options. IMO, I don't think the rubber bands technique matters if the instrument is brighter or darker. YMMV, but you should try it out for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Listen to your own ears and report back.

And, I really do not think the rubber bands create a mute effect that would affect the musician. John didn't want the foam or towel trick used so we went with the rubber bands with no issues. I really don't know what to say about it; you just have to try it yourself.

You're right, it is all subjective... Just give it a shot (IMHO) you will thank me for it later.

Were you taking about Regina Carter? I've worked with her before during one of the Panasonic Village Jazz concerts in NYC, but never worked the NPR gig you metioned. Were you on the Washington Square Park gig with her?

Never the less that stack of Metric Halos sounds pretty cool. How many were running?

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

>Which do you think has more of a muting effect, a mic suspended with rubber >bands or a very small block of soft foam?

This is a tough call and would be hard to determine without some experiementation. Attaching anything to the bridge will have a muting effect; however, the muting effect is greater if the placement is on the top of the bridge, near where the strings cross the bridge. Placing the item(s) lower on the legs would probably have less of a muting effect, as the bridge is much thicker at that point.

>I don't think the M160 will work very well in a loud live situation. There's not a lot >of output. YMMV.

So then, if you were to use a traditional figure 8 ribbon mic, how would you mute off the back side? Use one of your micro gobos?

Has anyone ever tried one of those SE Reflexion filters on upright bass?
http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html...

Man, all I can say is try it, you'll like it -- It really works well. Ron Carter didn't mind it one bit. He was concern on how his instrument is captured and where we placed the mics. Hey, a zillon years ago, he was the one that turned me onto the towel wraped mic trick so, he was very cool with the rubber bands concept.

The picture I uploaded showing the KM140 suspended with rubber bands was Ron Carter's bass during the Donald Harrison / Billy Cobham / Ron Carter recording we did for Half Note records. Have you heard that recording? I may consider posting a file one their thread someday soon.

I'm not sure I would use a (figure 8) ribbon in a "tight quarters" live date. It really depends on a bunch of things. With that said, if I did use that kind of mic I would consider using a foamed out micro gobo instead of a hard surface micro gobo. And, If so I would place it as far away from the rear of the mic as possible.

I really like the way those SE Reflexion filters look. I got to get my hands on a bunch of them.

[ajfarber]

I have used the figure-8 ribbon mics in studio situations only. These were no baffle no headphones dates. The bleed into the back lobe of the bass mic was not a problem. Some engineers build a "tent" around the bass mic to prevent too much leakage from the back and sides. In this case a LDC could work well. M49, U47, whatever.

I like the figure 8 because the pattern is tight on both sides. If the bass player sets up next to the drums, the mic tends to reject the drums because they're off-axis.

Again, I have to say that the pencil mic in the bridge is good, but I prefer more "finger noise".

Did I mention earlier the AKG D12e?

[Kris]

I've done some upright bass recordings lately. I used a AT4047 with great success... (we isolated the bass from the other instruments though). I was really suprised at the GREAT variety of tones you can get by just moving the mic around a bit. I was also suprised at how much you 'jazz purists' like that 'finger noise'!

Later I did a bit of listening/studying and sure enough, it's all over the place... sounds cool in the mix though!