How are you recording voice & piano (Lieder style)

[Recording David]

OK I don't have much experience with solo voice and piano (Lieder-type stuff). How are you doing it?

Pair of omnis on the piano & vocal spot?
Stereo pair in front of both performers?

Let's talk!

[tenor39]

If it's a small hall, a pair of A-B omnis in front of both will sound great, especially if the singer stands close to the piano. Try the piano lid on the short stick first.

[Recording David]

Cool - and what about the height of the mics as a starting point - slightly higher than the singer's head looking down, or straight ahead?

Thanks again.

[tenor39]

I like to go up above the singer, as most of the harmonics eminate from the head. Try about 6-8 ft. away and 8-10 ft. high, angled down at both musicians. I usually point them straight ahead on a stereo bar.

[David Spearritt]

I prefer a Blumlein pair centred on the voice. The piano on half or full stick. Move the singer forward from a starting position in the bend of the piano to balance. Never liked spaced omnis on this combination, the singer needs to be clearly located in the stereo image for that spine tingling experience.

[Recording David]

Thanks David & Mike - any other viewpoints?

David - do you find that if you have a very powerful singer that you need to spot the piano with that combo?

[pkautzsch]

ORTF-ish cardioids, usually ending up somewhat like 6 or 7 ft high. This works especially if the singer to the right of the piano player in front of the piano. I like to add another cardioid or hyper at the singer's right side so he turns to that mic when turning to the pianist. Depending on the music, piano spot either somewhere near the stick or at the rear end. Sometimes both can be good, in Schumann's Dichterliebe for example (first one more stick, last one more rear).

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Never liked spaced omnis on this combination, the singer needs to be clearly located in the stereo image for that spine tingling experience.

Agreed, but A-B omni is not spaced omnis. The bar I have is 50cm long and I can place the mics anywhere on the bar I wish. I find that Blumlein leaves a hole in the middle depending on the distance from the musicians. Also, too many mics close together introduce a lot of time, phase and comb filtering issues that detract from any advantage gained by using them. You can't treat "live" acoustic music as though it were being done in a studio, as the techniques don't translate from one to the other, IMHO.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Thanks David & Mike - any other viewpoints?

David - do you find that if you have a very powerful singer that you need to spot the piano with that combo?

I have never had to do this, even with powerful sopranos. Good lieder singers know how important it is to balance with the accompanist. Full stick on the piano is all that's required if they can't do it on their own.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by tenor39

I find that Blumlein leaves a hole in the middle depending on the distance from the musicians.

Are you sure you mean Blumlein here. Its impossible to get a hole in the middle with Blumlein.

[Just Dan]

My main/regular customer is an Art Song group. I usually use ORTF or NOS or variations on them, depending on how close/far I have to set up. I like to try and get about 7-8 feet or so high.

Though the artistic director/soprano is very big on aesthetics and depending on the venue, I end up just over the audience's heads because the "microphone and stand look too out of place with the rest of the ambiance." Or other times I might end up 20-30 feet away from the piano rather than 10 or so.

Daniel

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Are you sure you mean Blumlein here. Its impossible to get a hole in the middle with Blumlein.

Actually, it's not. It depends on the frequency lobe and pattern of the mic in question. Some figure-8 mics have much tighter side nulls than others (ribbons come to mind). Most have much narrower HF lobes, so they are even more directional than at lower frequencies. Look at the plot of some ribbons and then put those plots at 90 deg. to each other. You'll see what I mean. I also hear this issue with my ears, so it's not just chart reading.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by tenor39

Actually, it's not. It depends on the frequency lobe and pattern of the mic in question.

The best fig 8 mics have frequency and angle of incidence independent responses up to 10kHz (Schoeps MK8) and higher (KM120), and Royer SF24, this is the main reasons for using them. Locating of sound sources happens with energy below 10kHz, so I am suspicious of this conclusion.

Some figure-8 mics have much tighter side nulls than others (ribbons come to mind).

Which makes it even harder to get the hole in the middle.

Most have much narrower HF lobes, so they are even more directional than at lower frequencies.

Most? Which ones?

Look at the plot of some ribbons and then put those plots at 90 deg. to each other. You'll see what I mean.

What ribbons are you referring to?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Pair of omnis on the piano & vocal spot?

That's what I would do... Possibly even a touch of a piano spot, depends.

Daniel

[RobAnderson]

Locaisation is very important with a solo singer. I agree that spaced omni's could present a localisation issue - especially if the singer is inclined to turn her head or move while singing. However, the sound colour that omni's afford -especially on piano - cannot be achieved with any other mic.

My possible compromise would be to set up a M/S array with the Mid capsule being an omni. Then mix in Side to taste. This gives you the fabulous colour of the omni with the image precision of M/S. Just be sure to get a good balance/sound using only the Mid mic during placement and then use the side as "sweetener."

Best,
Rob

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

ORTF-ish cardioids, usually ending up somewhat like 6 or 7 ft high. This works especially if the singer to the right of the piano player in front of the piano.

What luck to come across this thread today! I have a recording gig coming up on Feb. 8 to capture a live performance of a recently-discovered Zemlinsky lied, which was found among the papers of Alma Mahler Werfel (her papers are on deposit here at the University of Pennsylvania) I had been contemplating using the exact same set-up as mentioned above. I might have been tempted to use a Blumlein pair, but I know the space, and it won't be useable, because of all the surrounding noise. I will be recording in an open gallery on the top floor of the University's main library, and the low rumbling sounds of the three elevators travelling up and down kill any chance of using a stereo recording technique that would rely on capturing ambient information: i.e. Blumlein or spaced omnis. The people in charge know about the probable deficiencies and distractions in the recording, and they don't care. They feel it is more important to document the event than it is to get a "perfect" recording. Good thing too, as the group sponsoring the performance won't spring to move a decent grand piano up into the gallery. Instead, University maintenance workers will be "moving" an upright from the Music seminar on the fourth floor to the sixth floor. Yikes! Thanks for confirmation of my hunch.

Regards,

Lloyd

lfrank@pobox.upenn.edu

[classicalrecord]

a fail-safe is definitely to go ortf with cardioids and just experiment with height and distance depending on the room... i find that i can't get too much higher than head level without losing the "directness" of voice that I want (along with the ambiance). you might want a spot for the piano but that's only necessary if they won't go full stick on the piano. alternately in a more studio-like setting it can be cool to do a stereo pair on piano (ortf) and then put a bi-directional ribbon on the singer with one of the nulls pointing at the piano-- this way the singer and pianist can have eye contact at all times and you can get separation, etc. not necessarily ideal for every situation but this can work really well and offers a lot of control after the fact.
just some thoughts.