D-sub 25 or not to be ?

[DeadPoet]

Hi y'all,

Just bought a new Alesis HD24 for cheap to replace my fixed native DAW-based rig, and to finally be able to to remote recording..

Now while waiting for the UPS truck to arrive, I'm trying to plan my strategy here... I'm a home-wrecker on a budget, so whatever I do, I can't buy or make what I want/need at once, but have to collect pieces as I go...

What I'm wondering about is how I'm gonna connect the recorder to a) my 32ch desk at home as well as b) some preamps or the direct outs of a P.A. FOH-desk.

Basically I have two options:

1) go 6x D-Sub25 which I think is cheap and easy + it's modular, meaning that I can get me some 1U 8ch preamps one at a time while not needing to re-patch or re-solder everything when I do.
2) go 1x (or 2x for I and O) Harting, ELCO, EDAC, whatever brand of 'big' multiconnector. Plusses with this option is the need for only 1 (or 2) multicable(s)...

Any opinions on pro or contra one way or the other ?

(should maybe mention: this is home-stuff, not top-pro, all handling and recording will be myself, not renting out, touring, handling by roadies, ...)


Oh yeah, is there like a standard in male-female connections on D-sub 25 ? I think I've read females on equipment and males on cables is most used ???


TIA,
Herwig

[Remoteness]

To DSUB or not to DSUB. That is the question...

Hi Herwig,

Welcome to the forum of remote. Did the UPS truck arrive yet?

I'm the same way at times. I don't always buy or build everything at once. It's a work in progress, but I research and design it ahead of time. That becomes my road map to/for completion.

Consider building an interface panel that connects to your home studio patch bay or console. Use the same connectors for your remote rig. When on location (build and) use a harness that connects from your recorder to the guest console, etc.

We use DSUB25s for 8 channel stuff, ELCO/EDAC 90 pins for 9 to 30 channel equipment and MASS W4 multipins for everything from 48 to 56 channel gear. Many of our racks have XLR, ELCO90 and/or W4 chassis mounted connectors wired to DSUB25, XLR, TS and/or TRS connectors. I like to keep the interfacing quick and clean. The less connections made the better. When we interface lets say, a 24 channel recorder it's just two ELCO90s (an in & an out) and the power plug and possible SMPTE TC, etc. Much cleaner then plugging in six DSUB25s. When the racks are used in one of our trucks, the interfacing is made via an ELCO90 to ELCO90 cable. When the racks need to interface with the outside world, we have ELCO90 to XLR (or whatever connection is applicable). We have every combination you can imagine. Tom Wells, our resident wiring guy fabricates cables and such as we need them.

Herwig, your situation may vary with time. Keep your future needs in mind when you're deciding on your cable and connector needs. The modular approach is very cool. As you grow you can always rewire one side to a larger multipin connector.

ELCO/EDAC should work out fine, especially since you're handling and recording everything yourself. ELCOs can be a problem if you're not careful when interfacing. Pins break, bend and get pushed in. but, IMO, they're very easy to fix in the field. On a larger scale MASS W4s are awesome, but you still have to check the pins everytime you connect them. The outer pins can bend when the connector isn't interfaced straight on.

There is no DSUB standard, but you're right, female DSUBs on the equipment and male DSUBs on the cable are used in most cases. We use that standard for all multi pin panel connections for the obvious reasons.

I hope this helped.

[DeadPoet]

Thanks for the detailed answer Steve!

I was looking into ELCO as well as Sub-D 25, but price/cable was significantly higher with the ELCO + for now I only can afford one 8ch mic preamp for use on the road (www.lineaudio.se anyone knows them ?) so I would only need one 8ch snake for now.

I agree having six Sub-D 8channels' could become a bit of a mess.. will have to figure something out by the time I need a second 8ch snake.

Also going Neutrik jacks all the way is gonna cost me a fortune, so I figured, could it hurt to get some cheaper symm. jacks for the short cables runs from the equipment to the patches (for breakout-cables I'll use neturik) -> they're not intended to be plugged in and out a lot.


Also, I'm gonna make the cables myself, the difference in cost is unbelievable (€1700 for a bought basic setup vs. €550 when selfmade)


Any tips how to drill Sub-D 25 holes in 1U 19" blanks ?


Thanks again,
Herwig

[Remoteness]

Herwig,

Remember one thing -- Whether you're plugging into them everytime you use them or not! Your equipment is only as good as the connectors and cable it keeps.

Also, Middle Atlantic Products makes a very nice UCP modular panel system. With a variety of connector options. It's a two space system. I use them in most of our equipment integrations. It's like having a custom panel shop on your shelf.

I haven't heard of Line Audio, but I checked their website. Are their prices in SEK or USD? If it's SEK, that's an amazing price for the 8 channel class A mic pre!!! 4000 SEK is about 550 USD. Have you heard their mic pres? If so, how do they sound?

[DeadPoet]

Remember one thing -- Whether you're plugging into them everytime you use them or not! Your equipment is only as good as the connectors and cable it keeps.

Yep, I know, that's why I'm hesitating ... €1,2 for a plug vs. €3 for a plug makes the bill lower real fast ... I'll rethink that..

I haven't heard of Line Audio, but I checked their website. Are their prices in SEK or USD? If it's SEK, that's an amazing price for the 8 channel class A mic pre!!! 4000 SEK is about 550 USD. Have you heard their mic pres? If so, how do they sound?

Price is in SEK (excl. sales tax). Haven't heard one yet, got this from a fellow at homerecording.com/bbs (regebro) He claims they are super clean (leaning to boring clean) As long as they're not as clinical as Yamaha pre's or as crappy as Behringer ones it's ok for me... I intend to buy one from his review, see what happens


I'll post pics when I assemble the rack!!


Herwig

[DeadPoet]

I just got a look at the Middleatlantic custom rack thing... seems interesting and clean. Gonna send them an email about prices and if they ship to Europe as well..


Herwig

[Gerax]

Originally posted by Remoteness:

There is no DSUB standard, but you're right, female DSUBs on the equipment and male DSUBs on the cable are used in most cases. We use that standard for all multi pin panel connections for the obvious reasons.

Many (if not the majority) of the manufacturers that use DSub 25 pins for 8 channel balanced snakes use the Tascam wiring standard (I guess you can find a wiring scheme on the Tascam Web Site): I have made several snakes of that kind for my own rig and wiring them that way has always worked well for the machine I had to inteface.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[DeadPoet]

Damn... I'm all confused now .. I've found DB25 pinouts where ch1 starts on pin 1 and others where ch1 starts on pin 25 ....

--> http://www.patchbays.com/pinouts.htm




Herwig

[Remoteness]

The Tascam DSUB25 pin standard is the way to go. Like Gerax said, more manufactures use this pin out.

Also, Middle Atlantic doesn't sell their products directly. Click on the International Distributor link on their website to find a dealer network in your country. If you hava a problem with that, you can get them from us.

[Remoteness]

Here are a few pictures of one of our 48 track DA78HR racks...

12 DSUB25s wired to four ELCO90 chassis mounted connectors.

A complete interface to this rack is made via nine cables or less.

One AC power inlet
One remote control cable
One video sync input.
Two M & F XLRs via IL19 isolation xfmrs for the SMPTE TC I/O.
Four ELCO90s (48 in / 48 out)

[DeadPoet]

Hmmmmm.. dirty gear pics grudge grudge


I did some research on ELCO/EDAC connectors and could only find EDAC 90p connectors for €56 (excl vat, ~= $70) ...

The difference between going 90pin and Sub-D 25 is about €450 which is enough for me to decide to go the Sub-D-route... Last thing I'm worrying about is whether the SubD-casing can hold a 8ch snake (diameter) ???

Aaargh, my brains are melting...


Thanks for the info and time Steve!


Herwig

[Remoteness]

Here are two of the ten interface panels on Jethro (Truck One)...

[wildplum]

markertek.com sells rack panels with Dsub25 punch outs; they'll also do custom panels.

[Mick@itc]

Hi Steve....
Begining to use those tags properly at last

Found this thread and really interrested in developing a single plug solution between the various rack cases I am building. The ELCO seems the go. Howmany pin version is needed for 24 channels? Is there a "standard" layout of channels or is is a case of consistancy.


Thansk
Mick

[Remoteness]

We created our own standard when there was no standard decades ago.

We got a studio and a rental house to go with our standard since we co-rented stuff back and forth, but they are not in business any longer.

There is a link in the "Beginners Guide" thread (Post number 11) which has been stuck to the top of the forum's first page.

Click on the links and check them out for more details on ELCO/EDAC pin outs and such.

[Plush]

Only a true freakoftheindushtry like Steve Remote would have pics of his connectors.

Way to Go! Major! line up.

[Mick@itc]

Thanks heaps Steve. Had printed off that post and put it in my Ref. Problem with printing is that links are lost in text.
Mick

[Remoteness]

I love checking out the way folks design and build their interface panels and harnesses.

When I'm not looking at everyone else's rigs I'm taking pictues of mine for the benefit of this forum!

I hope you can dig it.

[Mick@itc]

Gee...just check out that spelling on my last... I'm good

Oh I dig it Steve...You slut feeder you...I'm lov'en it and like you said is some post at some stage...you dont do it all in one hit, you build over the years...my way too...exciting times
Mick

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

Any tips how to drill Sub-D 25 holes in 1U 19" blanks ?


Thanks again,
Herwig

Those cutouts are done with a punch.

-kp

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Mick@itc

Gee...just check out that spelling on my last... I'm good

Oh I dig it Steve...You slut feeder you...I'm lov'en it and like you said is some post at some stage...you dont do it all in one hit, you build over the years...my way too...exciting times
Mick

Hey, Mick:

I don't see any typos.

Yeah, little by little by little by little...

Sometimes a lot then a break then a lot then a break.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Plush

Only a true freakoftheindushtry like Steve Remote would have pics of his connectors.

Way to Go! Major! line up.

Checkout this picture of the back of one of our "Dual X48" racks.

I'm throwing in a picture of the front of the rack and a shot of the DSUB25s to ELCO90s before they were installed into the panel for good measure...

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

Last thing I'm worrying about is whether the SubD-casing can hold a 8ch snake (diameter) ???

Herwig

Depends on the cable. Mogami 8 pair will fit in most D sub shells. I prefer the metal shells and drill out the opening with a drill press so I can get some extra room for shrink wrap. You might also want to go the route Steve did and just use molded d sub cables and terminate the other end yourself.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

Yep, I know, that's why I'm hesitating ... €1,2 for a plug vs. €3 for a plug makes the bill lower real fast ... I'll rethink that..

Herwig

Don't forget to figure the time involved in terminating and testing cables (whether building or buying). How much is your time worth? Do you work as fast and accurately as someone who builds cables all the time? Are there things you could be doing that would be better for your business than sitting at a bench soldering? Time = $$ and you only get 24 hours each day...

-kp

[Mick@itc]

MAN thats exactly what want to do with my HD24 case. Where you have the D-SUBS I will have trs. I noted that on the front you have a rack power conditioner. I thought you would have the whole thing running on a UPS? Just checking but if I am using a UPS to power the rack I dont need a power conditioner??. ALso, is that top unit just a drawer...for ....stuff?

Steve...you have been a huge help all the way through...many thanks
Mick

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Checkout this picture of the back of one of our "Dual X48" racks.

I'm throwing in a picture of the front of the rack and a shot of the DSUB25s to ELCO90s before they were installed into the panel for good measure...

[Remoteness]

Mick,

We built two "Dual X48" racks.
The second rack is in the process of being completed.
I wanted to keep the size down, so they are in 16 space racks.
I decided to design these racks without UPSs since we have at least four standalone 30 Amp true sine wave UPS available.
We also have a few smaller UPS when our power needs are smaller.

I will take a few pictures of our "Dual HD24XR" rack which has a small panel similar to the "Dual X48" rack.

We had to modify the SKB rack to handle a rear rack panel.
Remind me to upload a photo or two if I don't get to it first.

By the way, the "Dual X48" rack has transformer isolated TC and Video inputs/outputs.

Well, I wouldn't call it a real power conditioner -- it's just a rack mountable power strip with a few extra protection thing-a-ma-jigs.

Above the Furman power strip is a rack mounted keyboard and track ball.
Above that is empty space for a rack mounted keyboard/monitor/mouse switcher.
Above that will be a Brainstorm DCD-8 with all the bells and whistles.
Below the second X48 is a four space lock box that I usually call the glove box.

I'm thinking of installing a 3U glove box so we can fit a Crown D75 to power a pair of headsets.
This will be an efficient way to monitor the output of the backup machine (via the built in DAW) when needed.
We'll wire a custom ELCO90 that will only have a pair of tracks (let's say tracks 1&2) going to the input of the D75.
The inline ELCO90 can be switched to whichever chassis mounted output you may need to monitor.

Mick, thanks for the kind words...
I want to thank you and everyone that has praised the quality of this forum and the work I'm doing to make it so.
The PMs, emails and calls have been wonderful.

Thank you very much for the super sized support!

You folks RAWK!

[Remoteness]

Here's a quick picture of the back of our "Dual HD24XR rack which we happen to use an SKB Roto case to keep the weight down.

Normally I would have staged the photo a bit more.
I took this picture just before my session started.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Herwig,


I haven't heard of Line Audio, but I checked their website. Are their prices in SEK or USD? If it's SEK, that's an amazing price for the 8 channel class A mic pre!!! 4000 SEK is about 550 USD. Have you heard their mic pres? If so, how do they sound?

Yes that is an amazing low price (4800SEK) for those preamps. People that have written about them on Swedish forums have chosen them before other very respected and costly preamps, judged by performance alone.

I think I will get me a MP8 myself. Someone said they are on the level of Earthworks preamps. Don't know if that would be the LAB or ZDT line.

I have an ZDT 1024 comming my way so maybe I can do a shootout in August if I can get