pipe organ recording - dangerous at all volume levels!

[hollywood_steve]

As I mentioned in the old thread, the pipe organ recording went well from a technical perspective, although the performances varied dramatically between players and there were some issues with both the organ and the room. But the recording sounded very much like what someone would have heard in the theatre and that counts as a success on some level. My deliverable for this project was very basic; I just needed to cut out the long periods between actual performances and compile a rough edit of the 24 or so complete songs. No processing of any kind, no "pre-mastering" or other "finishing" of the recording on my end.

At the show I had monitored on my Beyer DT770-pro headphones and I used those and a pair of Tannoy Reveals (w/ Hafler P3000) while compiling the rough edit. This was my first recording of a pipe organ and I was suitably impressed by the low end, especially on the headphones. The 770s held up well during even the lowest and loudest sections, while the Reveals did a very good job at rolling off anything it couldn't reproduce; when compared to the headphones, the Reveals sounded as if they had a hi-pass filter gradually rolling off anything as you went down below 60hz (and the recording went WAY below 60hz, I'd guess that the lowest fundamental was down around C=32hz or maybe lower).

And based on those two monitoring situations, I assumed that I was done. But then I took a drive in a rental Toyota yesterday and popped a CD copy into the stereo. You all probably now what’s coming, but it hit me completely by surprise - the car stereo sounded like a bassist with an SVT head plugged into a clock radio speaker - the cones were literally flapping in the breeze. After I quickly shut everything off, I checked the settings on the rental car stereo and sure enough, the Bass and Treble controls were both cranked to the max. But even after setting things reasonably flat, and at soft volume, the really low notes caused the car stereo speakers to sound like they were blown. I switched to the radio and cranked the volume on a rock station and the speakers sounded fine.

I'm guessing that cheap consumer speakers aren't expected to ever see a 32hz fundamental and if they do, it’s been limited to hell. But now I'm curious how commercial releases of pipe organ music are processed? Do they drastically limit or otherwise attenuate the lowest notes or is there some other trick to allow sub-40hz tones from destroying cheap speakers? As a bass player, I know that when I play an open E string on a recording, the playback consists mostly of harmonics. But my recording chain captured the lowest fundamentals of the pipe organ and the results are potentially deadly to cheap consumer speakers. How can I process the recording to allow the low end to come through on good systems without destroying the cheapies?

[mikedaul]

I heard a bit on NPR the other day about pipe organs helping to inspire religious experience b/c of the subsonic frequences of the low pipes. It seems the largest pipes in your typical pipe organ are tuned below 20hz, so you feel the sound rather than hear it. Maybe it's all these VLF's that are causing the car speakers to freak out?

The only commercial pipe organ recordings I've heard were on vinyl on a nice audiophile stereo, so that's no help. But the guy did complain that cd's of pipe organs weren't to his liking at all... maybe you'll need to just attentuate the cd to sound more like your typical classical cd or something like that...

[Tao_teh_ching]

Hi steve,

Could you please tell me what your chain was.

Can you also tell me that how did you mic the pipe organ.

Pipe organ is a rare instrument in my country, but it has always fasinated me. Thats why I have that element of curiosity, hope its no problem.

Regards
Tao

[T.RayBullard]

I am very interested in this. I do 3-4 organ recordings a month, and even though I use a HPF and eq..the LF just kills consumer speakers...thanks for piquing my interest...

Originally Posted by hollywood_steve

As I mentioned in the old thread, the pipe organ recording went well from a technical perspective, although the performances varied dramatically between players and there were some issues with both the organ and the room. But the recording sounded very much like what someone would have heard in the theatre and that counts as a success on some level. My deliverable for this project was very basic; I just needed to cut out the long periods between actual performances and compile a rough edit of the 24 or so complete songs. No processing of any kind, no "pre-mastering" or other "finishing" of the recording on my end.

At the show I had monitored on my Beyer DT770-pro headphones and I used those and a pair of Tannoy Reveals (w/ Hafler P3000) while compiling the rough edit. This was my first recording of a pipe organ and I was suitably impressed by the low end, especially on the headphones. The 770s held up well during even the lowest and loudest sections, while the Reveals did a very good job at rolling off anything it couldn't reproduce; when compared to the headphones, the Reveals sounded as if they had a hi-pass filter gradually rolling off anything as you went down below 60hz (and the recording went WAY below 60hz, I'd guess that the lowest fundamental was down around C=32hz or maybe lower).

And based on those two monitoring situations, I assumed that I was done. But then I took a drive in a rental Toyota yesterday and popped a CD copy into the stereo. You all probably now what’s coming, but it hit me completely by surprise - the car stereo sounded like a bassist with an SVT head plugged into a clock radio speaker - the cones were literally flapping in the breeze. After I quickly shut everything off, I checked the settings on the rental car stereo and sure enough, the Bass and Treble controls were both cranked to the max. But even after setting things reasonably flat, and at soft volume, the really low notes caused the car stereo speakers to sound like they were blown. I switched to the radio and cranked the volume on a rock station and the speakers sounded fine.

I'm guessing that cheap consumer speakers aren't expected to ever see a 32hz fundamental and if they do, it’s been limited to hell. But now I'm curious how commercial releases of pipe organ music are processed? Do they drastically limit or otherwise attenuate the lowest notes or is there some other trick to allow sub-40hz tones from destroying cheap speakers? As a bass player, I know that when I play an open E string on a recording, the playback consists mostly of harmonics. But my recording chain captured the lowest fundamentals of the pipe organ and the results are potentially deadly to cheap consumer speakers. How can I process the recording to allow the low end to come through on good systems without destroying the cheapies?

[tenor39]

The fact that your recording preserved the LF information is a testament to your placement and mic's. I would not "dumb down" the recording so it plays well on a boombox or factory CD player. Pipe organ enthusiests want the LF's and the dynamic range, as this is what the instrument is all about. They don't call it the "King of Instruments" for nothing. Resist the temptation to apply standard studio techniques, here, as they will ruin the fine sound that you've captured.

[Berolzheimer]

Thiings like this make me wish we could release 2 versions of everything- one for car stereo & boom box folks, & one for people with good playback systems who can appreciate our work.

[inlinenl]

Hello Steve

Once i did this pipe-organ in holland and it has no line-out ......

it's in Maassluis "de grote KERK" ... it was donated by a rich ship holder to his community after years of sending the poor people out on to the sea on bad boats .. where alot off them died .. in and around 1700 ... buying his place in heaven ...


follow this link for some more info on the organ http://home.wxs.nl/~vdkolkm/orgel-en.html

I used just 2 dpa on a high ( 9m ) stand .....

Nice pieces from BACH and others ...

Did you consider some mastering ....... it will contain/manage you're lowend ..

I can do a sample if you want ...

greetings wim

www.inlinemastering.com

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by tenor39

If the organ has true open pedal pipes (32') it will produce a 32Hz fundamental on the low pedal C. A stopped (closed) 16' pipe can do this as a Helmholtz resonator, but without the impact that a full wavelength pipe will give. To my knowledege there are no American organs that have anything larger than open 32'.

Actually, it's an octave lower. Most pipe organs have 16' pipes and they go down to 32Hz on lowest their pedal C. The 32' pipes go down to 16Hz and they're reasonably common. Not on every organ for sure but in not uniquely uncommon either. 64' pipes are AFAIK very, very unusual. One such organ is said to be in the opera house of Sydney. 64' pipes go down to 8Hz.

best regards
Lars

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by larsfarm

Actually, it's an octave lower. Most pipe organs have 16' pipes and they go down to 32Hz on lowest their pedal C. The 32' pipes go down to 16Hz and they're reasonably common. Not on every organ for sure but in not uniquely uncommon either. 64' pipes are AFAIK very, very unusual. One such organ is said to be in the opera house of Sydney. 64' pipes go down to 8Hz.

best regards
Lars

atlantic city convention hall.
http://theatreorgans.com/atlcity/

64' Diaphone Profunda, whose low CCCCC is 64'9" long, 10" square at the base, 36" square at the top, and 3" thick; made of a single tree that was at least 785 years old! The 12 lowest pipes contain more than10,000 board feet of lumber, enough to build a house.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by tenor39

With middle C being about 2' in length for an open pipe, every doubling of length produces an octave lowering in frequency. So low pedal C would be 32' open.

I got my "open" and "closed" pipes mixed up. Yes, a stopped 16' pipe will produce a 32Hz fundamental, as will an open 32'. A stopped 32' will produce 16Hz, as will an open 64' pipe. To produce 8Hz it would have to be a stopped 64' pipe.

Stopped 32' pipes are very rare in the U.S., but not as rare as the 64' just mentioned!

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stra.../orgbuild.html

I am afraid you are still confused. A 16-ft open pipe lowest C is 32Hz; stop it and you have 16Hz. Conversely a 32-ft open produces 16Hz, and I do not know of any stopped 32ft instances simply because the fundamental with stopped pipes is weak so what is the point? Most 64-ft stops are reeds or variants, such as a diaphone.

One famous example of bass excess is the Fisk in the Meyerson in Dallas where 32ft Open Diapason low C has TWO pipes (producing 16Hz eac!) for maximum Saint-Saëns!!

Rich

[tenor39]

Rich-

I stand corrected. I have to quit posting when I'm tired.

[brucegel]

Sounds like you did a good job capturing everything.Pipe organs like the best systems an audiophile can muster to really shine.Playing back your recording in a car is like shrinking the empire state building into a snow globe.

[Larry Sheehan]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

Hello Steve

Once i did this pipe-organ in holland and it has no line-out ......

Dang! Got coffee in my sinuses now.

[smarsland]

This has been tremendously good reading and thank god for smart people who are musicians too!

Pipe Organ was my first official paid recording gig for MARSLAND AUDIO. Was a lot of fun to do!


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