Still tempted to try AEA R84 besides my Schoeps

[CrazyBeast]

Enjoyed reading this thread!

You could certainly try a M/S setup with the aea and your schoeps and might enjoy that sonic picture? I know I like similar setups...

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

No Jim ... It seems I start having a small love affair with R88 in the end On guitar etc. it sounds very sweet. On violin actually too (after using some EQ). Let us see how deep this relationship could be ... For sure I will post some samples ...

The main consideration is whether it is possible to connect both worlds in one recording - the full sweetness of ribbons with the detailed top end and depth of condensers ... I am still experimenting with it ...

Well the whole family is waiting to hear if an adoption is forthcoming

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Well the whole family is waiting to hear if an adoption is forthcoming

Wow, do you own all of those beautiful micages?

Either way, that picture looks awesome -- Bring it on!

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Wow, do you own all of those beautiful micages?

Either way, that picture looks awesome -- Bring it on!

Thanks. I've given them each a name My credit card company likes them as well :(

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Well the whole family is waiting to hear if an adoption is forthcoming

i thought i was ribbon crazy! JAMZ, you are da "ribbon" man!. looks like i need to audition a pair of schoeps mics, eh?

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

i thought i was ribbon crazy! JAMZ, you are da "ribbon" man!. looks like i need to audition a pair of schoeps mics, eh?

Hey Bill...Jim here.
Yeah, I'm kickin back with a pint of Guinness right now waiting for Ivo to bite the apple.

BTW besides a 44 and 4038 still being on my wish list you now have my interest liques with the C&T Studio Vocalist.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Hey Bill...Jim here.
Yeah, I'm kickin back with a pint of Guinness right now waiting for Ivo to bite the apple.

BTW besides a 44 and 4038 still being on my wish list you now have my interest liques with the C&T Studio Vocalist.

might want to audition the c&t "soundstage" as well. i never tried it but its freq response seems more "normal" for a ribbon than the vocalist (which is hyped at 4-5k). i would describe the crowley's as more of a "modern" sound as opposed to the "classic" sound of the aea mics.

too early for a guiness here in sunny san diego but, as the saying goes, its dark under the porch so wtf!

bill

[squeegybug]

I had Studio Vocalist and Soundstage Image, along with R84. You can hear a simple vocal clip here.

Steve

[ISedlacek]

Here are few short samples.

VIOLIN: The same few tones played at the same time into R88 and a spaced pair of MK21 (placed a bit further away than R88). I actually intended to blend these two but did not sound too good. But at least it can serve as a direct example of R88 vs a pair of MK21 sound and this time I play exactly the same thing in both examples (which I am otherwise unable to do )
I made a slight HF lift on R88 sample (few dB above 2kHz - just by a software EQ)
I used a bit of reverb to make it sounds nice ..

Violin R88

Violin Schoeps MK21

TURKISH SAZ
Recently someone gave me a broken Turkish saz (I have no idea how to play it). I played few barbarian tones on it just few moments ago. The first example (with a bit of SW EQ) was played in about 1m distance from the mic.
The second example is completely plain, with no EQ, played even from a bigger distance (about 1,5 m)
A pair of Schoeps MK21 was placed in an approximate NOS position at about 1 meter from the instrument.
No reverb etc. used, just plain and real

Saz R88 with a little EQ

Saz R88 plain from bigger distance

Saz Schoeps MK21

How does it sound to you ?

[billgennaro]

thanks, steve. i'm listening on cheap computer monitors at the moment but am surprised to here the soundstage sound so nuetral compared to the vocalist and r84. maybe its just the inadequacies of these speakers. i think the vocalist sounded best on your voice.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Hello Jim.

yesterday I found R88 sounding very nice on classical Spanish guitar, it quite outperformed the Schoeps it seems. For months I tried to find a good sounding Schoeps position for that guitar and was never 100% happy, always a tiny bit thin, hard and edgy (in comparison with what I hear when playing.). Yesterday I put R88 in front of it and suddenly the guitar sounded very full and sweet ... Especially after using a bit EQ (which I was encouraged to do in case of ribbons).

Glad you're getting into the 'zone' with the R-88!

Also, playing with EQ's on ribbon mic's is a real "ear-opener". No mic's can take EQ like these babies!

Don't forget to try it in M/S - it's a beautiful thing for guitar/violin/solo instruments... thumbsup

Lastly - post clips when you can!

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

thanks, steve. i'm listening on cheap computer monitors at the moment but am surprised to here the soundstage sound so nuetral compared to the vocalist and r84. maybe its just the inadequacies of these speakers. i think the vocalist sounded best on your voice.

I listened to that before (and did again now) and to my ears both Crowleys sound a bit plain, boring (one of the least exciting mics from the whole series) comparing to the touch of richness and sweetness in R84

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Here are few short samples.

VIOLIN: The same few tones played at the same time into R88 and a spaced pair of MK21 (placed a bit further away than R88). I actually intended to blend these two but did not sound too good. But at least it can serve as a direct example of R88 vs a pair of MK21 sound and this time I play exactly the same thing in both examples (which I am otherwise unable to do )
I made a slight HF lift on R88 sample (few dB above 2kHz - just by a software EQ)
I used a bit of reverb to make it sounds nice ..

Violin R88

Violin Schoeps MK21

TURKISH SAZ
Recently someone gave me a broken Turkish saz (I have no idea how to play it). I played few barbarian tones on it just few moments ago. The first example (with a bit of SW EQ) was played in about 1m distance from the mic.
The second example is completely plain, with no EQ, played even from a bigger distance (about 1,5 m)
A pair of Schoeps MK21 was placed in an approximate NOS position at about 1 meter from the instrument.
No reverb etc. used, just plain and real

Saz R88 with a little EQ

Saz R88 plain from bigger distance

Saz Schoeps MK21

How does it sound to you ?

again, on my cheap computer speakers and only having listened to the violin samples, the r88 sounds warmer, the schoeps sounds more brilliant(?). both sound great but the schoeps reaches out and grabs you a little more because of the top end.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I listened to that before (and did again now) and to my ears both Crowleys sound a bit plain, boring (one of the least exciting mics from the whole series) comparing to the touch of richness and sweetness in R84

yeah, i'll have to give another listen when i get home to my studio. the audio coming out of this computer and these speakers suck.

[84K]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Thanks. I've given them each a name My credit card company likes them as well :(

HAHAHA. We can ALL relate to that.

Sweet pic. And from your sound samples, it is good to know that they are being used to their fullest potential. Great Stuff Jim!!

Have you done shootouts with different pres to find that perfect marriage?

[Jamz]

Just got in and giving them a listen. Thanks Ivo.
Violins:
The Schoeps are very articulate...or is that just Ivo's playing Very nice!
I really like the clarity, definition and depth.
Top end presence but not thin or harsh at all...at least in this example with this instrument and performer. Sounds a little more in your face than the 88.

R88, also very nice. A bit smoother but still well defined. Warmer perhaps at the slight cost of the more brilliant top end exhibited by the Schoeps. Probably more forgiving on less capable players/instruments.

Deciding between the two would most likely be determined by purpose of and placement in the music. Which is why in my opinion it's nice to have a representative from both sides to help handle variables and purposes that change session to session.

I go back and forth on many occassions between the sharp articulation of the SDC and the smooth cozier sound of the ribbon. With the clarity of the SDC you run the risk of something perhaps being a little harsh or a little thin or a little strident. With the warmth of the ribbon you run the risk of something being perhaps a bit dark or lacking the definition the SDC provides. Again it really depends on the player and the instrument. I use what I think will work best or help solve a problem. It's nice to have the choice.

I'll listen to the saz shortly. Time to grab a bite to eat.

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Here are few short samples.

VIOLIN: The same few tones played at the same time into R88 and a spaced pair of MK21 (placed a bit further away than R88). I actually intended to blend these two but did not sound too good. But at least it can serve as a direct example of R88 vs a pair of MK21 sound and this time I play exactly the same thing in both examples (which I am otherwise unable to do )
I made a slight HF lift on R88 sample (few dB above 2kHz - just by a software EQ)
I used a bit of reverb to make it sounds nice ..

Violin R88

Violin Schoeps MK21

TURKISH SAZ
Recently someone gave me a broken Turkish saz (I have no idea how to play it). I played few barbarian tones on it just few moments ago. The first example (with a bit of SW EQ) was played in about 1m distance from the mic.
The second example is completely plain, with no EQ, played even from a bigger distance (about 1,5 m)
A pair of Schoeps MK21 was placed in an approximate NOS position at about 1 meter from the instrument.
No reverb etc. used, just plain and real

Saz R88 with a little EQ

Saz R88 plain from bigger distance

Saz Schoeps MK21

How does it sound to you ?

[harold716]

Ivo,

Those were very nice sound clips. I'm with the above post. I really like both mics. I have never used the R88 before. I have been considering buying one for a while and I think I'll get one now. I really like how natural that mic sounded.

Is there any chance you could post some guitar clips using the same mics?

Harold

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by harold716

Is there any chance you could post some guitar clips using the same mics?

Harold

Yes, for sure. While on violin I could remain very happy with Schoeps, I am still not sure with classical guitar. I will add something today or tomorrow ....

If I am on unlimited budget, I would not hesitate to keep R88 etc. without blinking an eye. But in reality I must try and consider whether it would be a truly substantial contribution and improvement to what I do(to justify the expense), or whether in the end I would still keep turning to more "hifi" sounding Schoeps and let R88 just as a beautiful decoration ... (whic would not be too wise). If I have a studio where various musicians come to record often, R88 could be handy (as Jim said). But since most of the time I record only my music on my instruments, my needs are a bit more specialised ....

I will keep trying till Sunday before I decide... Yes, the classical Spanish guitar is the main thing which keeps me really pondering ...

[ISedlacek]

Now I also listened to these samples on few simple home devices, including laptop speakers. It seems that the "warmth" and other special sonic features of the ribbons can be fully apprecciated on studio speakers with Lavry DA etc. but in the home reality, the condensers seem to give a bit more of listening content and a feeling of "hifi" quality comparing to the ribbon samples that do not show that amount of depth and resolution in these very cases ... (of course, Schoeps are "royal" microphones, if some lower quality SD condensers were used, probably the ribbons would excel ...)

Anyway, I keep trying further ...

[Jimbo]

Hey Jim,

How is that CAD Trion ribbon I see in the picture?

- Jim

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Hey Jim,

How is that CAD Trion ribbon I see in the picture?

- Jim

Jimbo...Trion was a gift from our very own 84K
Cutting vocals and he knows I like ribbons. Very nice of him. He tells me it's great on electric guitar cabs. Wasn't my favorite on acoustic guitar. I tried it on a reference vocal ala smooth RnB. It was very nice. Thank you Mr. K thumbsup

Back to the R88.

[84K]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Jimbo...Trion was a gift from our very own 84K
Cutting vocals and he knows I like ribbons. Very nice of him. He tells me it's great on electric guitar cabs. Wasn't my favorite on acoustic guitar. I tried it on a reference vocal ala smooth RnB. It was very nice. Thank you Mr. K thumbsup

Back to the R88.

I was happy to find a ribbon that functioned in a way you didn't have covered already!

I can post some Trion electric guitar samples tomorrow. It is awesome. (on electric guitar) It sounds like it blends the qualities of the R121 with the edge of a 57 in one package. Albeit, it does need eq, but it takes it real nice. I would go bounce something down, but my sleeping girlfriend would get mad. Tomorrow...

[ISedlacek]

After trying a bit more I found that a classical guitar sounds really nice with R88 (probably the only instrument I clearly prefered the sound comparing to using Schoeps).

However, finally I focused also on the accompanying factors - and found that the (mic/preamp) noise is almost unacceptable. When you play music which has some quiet passages or even some moment of silence and adjust it to a normal volume, it is TOO MUCH of that constantly present pink or white noise. Quite lo-fi. TRP does not help, it is the same noisy as anything else ... You just plug the mic , press record and the volume level immediately jumps to a constant -50, -40db or so (with high gain preamp setting) ... when nothing is recorded ...

For sure - if you record electric guitar, trompet, saxophon, drum OH etc., it absolutely does not matter, but for a decent or rather subtle acoustic music, the constant extra noise is ulmost ubearable (at least for me ...). So I am afraid this may turn down my consideration of keeping R88 or any other ribbon ... unfortunately ...

[mr.gefell]

get a gordon.....maybe grant will make a 80 db version noiseless..

i really loved the sound of r88.

[Jamz]

No one could ever fault you for not doing your homework. You are consistently proactive in hands-on research.
BTW is your mic quest a search to fill a missing element in your recording strategy or merely to guage the status quo?

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

After trying a bit more I found that a classical guitar sounds really nice with R88 (probably the only instrument I clearly prefered the sound comparing to using Schoeps).

However, finally I focused also on the accompanying factors - and found that the (mic/preamp) noise is almost unacceptable. When you play music which has some quiet passages or even some moment of silence and adjust it to a normal volume, it is TOO MUCH of that constantly present pink or white noise. Quite lo-fi. TRP does not help, it is the same noisy as anything else ... You just plug the mic , press record and the volume level immediately jumps to a constant -50, -40db or so (with high gain preamp setting) ... when nothing is recorded ...

For sure - if you record electric guitar, trompet, saxophon, drum OH etc., it absolutely does not matter, but for a decent or rather subtle acoustic music, the constant extra noise is ulmost ubearable (at least for me ...). So I am afraid this may turn down my consideration of keeping R88 or any other ribbon ... unfortunately ...

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Jamz

BTW is your mic quest a search to fill a missing element in your recording strategy or merely to guage the status quo?

I am still not 100% happy with the recorded sound of my violin/viola etc. and even more with classical guitar (R88 showed the possible way ...but I play too quiet for it ...). Now I start working on the Mystical Violin II CD and I began with a search for ideal sound of these instruments ...
If I own a small private church next to my studio, it would sound much better I know. Anyway, seems there is nothing considerably better than Schoeps ... so the key is in the endless game of mic positioning ...
Whatever I tried before, it seems that nothing sounds better than one mic pair. The attempts to combine more than two mics never brought any good sounding results to me so far ...
Seems that R88 with Gordon (specially adjusted to 80 dB gain) could be a great tandem. Maybe after I finish Mystical Violin VI.

Anyway, back to music

[kittyboy]

I'd love to hear these clips but I keep getting error messages. Are they still up?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by kittyboy

I'd love to hear these clips but I keep getting error messages. Are they still up?

I just tried - they are there for download ...

[ISedlacek]

I felt that R88 sounds sweet for my classical Spanish guitar. Now I tried to play few tones also on a pair of Schoeps MK4V. I think I like it too :-)) Maybe not so "sweet" but more clear and realistic, but still "sweet" ... Of course, with some nice sound treatment even the Schoeps could get some extra "warmth".

Should you be interested, here are few samples from slightly different mic positions. Don´t worry about some spontaneous imperfections, it was just to quickly try the sound (and also, since I do not have that low mic stand to put R88 low enough, I had to raise the guitar in a funny position ...). All samples completely plain without any EQ (just a bit of my favourite reverb added):

CLASSICAL GUITAR:

R88

1

2

3


SCHOEPS MK4V:

1

2

[mosrite]

I sold my Coles 4040 a wee while ago. It was really a financial decision more than anything.

While I found it shone on certain sources, it was not used enough for me to justify keeping it. If money was no object (and if I was a true Gearslut) then, of course, I would have it all, but I am not in that position at the moment.

What I found was that when it didn't work it was dull, boring and lifeless.

When it did work it was mellow, vintage and expensive sounding!

It is also worth reitterating that for lesser performers and instruments a ribbon mic seems to airbrush the imperfections slightly. That can be very useful.

But my Schoeps don't exhibit that nasty top end of most condensors so I don't feel the absolute need for a ribbon to counter that.

I am suprised the Coles 4040 is not being mentioned much as I remember shooting it out against an R84 and thinking that, for that ribbon sound, there really was no contest.