Low Ceilings, Drums, and Polar Patterns

[drumzealot]

I play drums (used to be full-time now only part-time) and have a project studio where I record my own material (all styles of music). The 5 years I have spent trying to get good sounds has greatly increased my respect for the art of engineering.
I currently rent a house with a specious basement where I have a project studio. The room sounds OK, however the 6 foot high ceiling presents a challenge for recording drum set. My go-to mic set-up involves two spaced cardioid LDCs as OHs plus close mics.
However, I want to start experimenting with ribbon mics and minimal micing techniques like the “Glyn Johns” 3-mic thingy. I have tried some 2 or 3 mic techniques and I love the results although I need to spend more time dealing with phase and balance issues.

Had I a taller ceiling I would buy a pair of AEA R84s and run them through the AEA ribbon preamp (or some other pre with tons of quiet gain).

There is only about 2 – 2.5 feet of space between my cymbals and the ceiling, which currently has no sound treatment. There are throw rugs on the floor and the room is quite wide with block walls.

Would figure-8 mics present significant problems as OHs?
Would I be better off sticking with cardioid mics like the Beyer M260 or M160?
Would it help enough to place diffusers above the drums?
Any other suggestions?

In addition to drum set, whatever I get will also be used for percussion, all types of guitar, vox and the occasional fart (no ribbon mics for that).

Thanks!!!

[beaxarthur]

i donno if you do this, but with low ceilings i have pretty good luck putting the overheads in front of the kit rather than hanging over the kit.

[gatekeeper]

theoretically, whatever way that is spelled, a high cieling is equivalent to a cieling with 100% absorption, according to someone on this forum. Have to try that out, and I'm in the same situation also, cieling 7" tall sucks I know.

-cliff

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by gatekeeper

theoretically, whatever way that is spelled, a high cieling is equivalent to a cieling with 100% absorption, according to someone on this forum.

i think "someone on this forum" was full of crap. a higher cieling would mean that the slap would come later, and the resonances between it and the floor would be lower. 100% absorption would be as if the ceiling wasn't there...

...and then you'd get rained on. or shat upon by birds!

--jon

[Remoteness]

Shat upon by birds. I like that one!

Thank goodness elephants don't fly.

--------------------------------

Now back to the show...

I had a similar problem when I was recording Will Calhoun's drums when he was in Living Colour way back when. They were performing at TT the Bear's in Cambridge, MA. Well, the drums were setup in this little cove, we could not get the O/Hs high enough over the drums to meet my standard so, we ended up taping a couple of Crown PZMs to the ceiling. It sounded awesome!

[softwareguy]

+1 for pulling the mics in front of the kit, preferably along the long axis of the room. If you can borrow some ribbons (or something in fig.8) I would try those, with the nulls pointed at the ceiling. Should be the best way to take the ceiling out of the picture, but will definitely require some experimentation.

[CrankyRayHanky]

cieling 7" tall sucks I know.

Seven INCHES, Wow, that is low..oompa loompa studios

I think figure 8 mics for drumoverheads with a low ceiling could be ugly. I would go cardiod over the top and/or room mics

[gatekeeper]

DIY Broadband Absorber - pictures posted

The goals for treating a tracking room are similar to a control room - bass trapping in the corners to reduce boominess and make microphone position less critical for bass instruments, and mid/high frequency absorption on various surfaces to control flutter echo and comb filtering. A low ceiling is not the end of the world. It requires more absorption coverage, and especially above places you'll use overhead microphones. If you think about it, a ceiling that absorbs 100 percent is acoustically equal to a ceiling that's infinitely high. Either way, whatever goes up does not come back. But you need absorption that's effective to as low and as high a frequency as possible.

--Ethan

That's what ethan said, hopefully someone will now clear this up

[AlexLakis]

Uh, yeah, he said infinately high, meaning there is no ceiling, for all intensive purposes. Just because a ceiling happens to be "high," it doesn't mean you won't get reflections. You will. Unless you, yourself, are "high." In which case, I'd stop fiddling with the mics, you might drop one.

On lower ceilings, a figure 8 might be cool. Why not try putting the ceiling in the null of the pickup pattern? A lower X/Y setup perhaps? Depends on how the room sounds...Might get kinda boxy...Maybe a figure 8 on it's side and a cardioid pointing straight down on the drumset?

But, yeah, there are several micing techniques that don't involve mics close to the ceiling. "Front-of-kit" mics are your friend! Why not give the "Recorderman" setup a try?

[pkautzsch]

You could also try, in addition to absorptive areas, to put up a diffusor part getting reflections away from the kit. Kind of V shape.

[JonCraig]

right... a 100% absorptive ceiling is the eqivalent of one that isn't there (or infinitely high). i think you're taking his quote out of context, however, as making a ceiling 100% absorptive across the audible frequency band is near impossible without a whole lotta money.

--jon

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

right... a 100% absorptive ceiling is the eqivalent of one that isn't there

So, if I treat the ceiling really well with absorptive material I might get shat upon by birds?



Wait, I'm cornfused.

[JonCraig]

better yet... birds are absorptive! just glue them to the ceiling! then you're sure to be shat upon! at least 'til they die. then you'll have even more gross stuff fall on you.

hmmm... on second thought... that doesn't sound too good. nor is it likely to smell good. maybe the best solution is to use a drum machine.



--jon

[taturana]

i remember a really weird talk with the acoustics consultant that came to my studio to help me... i was asking if there was something better than rockwool and he said... "sure there is: you can use human corpses, but the smell isn't so good.."

[pkautzsch]

Well, they use human bodies for absorption purposes in concert halls.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

...and then you'd get rained on. or shat upon by birds!

--jon

Is that so bad? Closer to nature...

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by Jax

Is that so bad? Closer to nature...

condenser mics in the rain...

--jon

[4stringerfinger]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

or shat upon by birds!
--jon

Quoted for correct verb tense usage. Nice.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by 4stringerfinger

Quoted for correct verb tense usage. Nice.

I recall having an in-depth discussion with my 7th grade English teacher about the past tense of "shit." Unfortunately, the fact that I beat her in Scrabble every day after school in detention discredited here ultimate knowledge on the subject.

[everybody's x]

try close micing in combination with pzm mics on the floor in front of the kit or behind the kit or both

[John Suitcase]

I'd say:

1. OHs out in front

2. Some treatment on the ceiling if you want overheads above

3. PZMs on the ceiling. I think this may be a good idea. I always have trouble getting my PZMs to sound good, but other people seem to have good luck with them. They eliminate the slap and comb filtering from the ceiling, so they're a good option in this case. And you could always delay them by a ms. or two, to give them a little more artificial height... Maybe put them in a spaced array type configuration,w ith about 3' between them. I'd bet that'll sound nice...

[Open Sky]

I'm also a drummer. I'd say the best sound anyone has ever gotten for me involved the typical close mics on snare and kick, as well as putting 2 LDCs--not overhead--but one next to each of my ears, ear level. My drums finally sounded exactly the way I hear them (GO FIGURE!). I'd also put something on the walls and ceiling anyway to absorb reflections, though, and move your drums away from the wall.

Go ribbons! But those prices...ouch.

[Remoteness]

Putting 2 LDCs next to your ears at ear level sounds like a great idea.

I usually place one LDC over the the drummer's right shoulder to produce the same effect when I record drums. I want to capture the drummer's perspective.
Using two mics for this approach is very cool if you're not using overheads.