Starting out in location audio for video/film...

[PoorGlory]

I currently have a more than decent home studio where I manage to keep busy with a number of projects... However, I find that there is a need in my area for location sound recordists with their own gear (i.e. shotgun mic, field mixer, recorder, boom, etc...)

So my question is: are there any pieces of gear you could reccomend for this purpose, and as a starting point for me? Also, if you could point me in the direction of a good primer on field recording for video, that would be outstanding.

I frequently see job listings for sound recordists needed that have their own gear... usually what is required is a boom mic, field mixer, and two wireless lavs. Now, I'm intimately familiar with your traditional Shure UHF series (both the newer wideband stuff, and the older stuff thats usually either A or B band). So I guess I'm wondering is there any type of UHF wireless reciever that is appropriate for carrying in this type of application?

Thanks. Again, I'm looking for info on more dialogue oriented recording, as opposed to SFX and music.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by PoorGlory

I currently have a more than decent home studio where I manage to keep busy with a number of projects... However, I find that there is a need in my area for location sound recordists with their own gear (i.e. shotgun mic, field mixer, recorder, boom, etc...)

So my question is: are there any pieces of gear you could reccomend for this purpose, and as a starting point for me? Also, if you could point me in the direction of a good primer on field recording for video, that would be outstanding.

I frequently see job listings for sound recordists needed that have their own gear... usually what is required is a boom mic, field mixer, and two wireless lavs. Now, I'm intimately familiar with your traditional Shure UHF series (both the newer wideband stuff, and the older stuff thats usually either A or B band). So I guess I'm wondering is there any type of UHF wireless reciever that is appropriate for carrying in this type of application?

Thanks. Again, I'm looking for info on more dialogue oriented recording, as opposed to SFX and music.

I've got a mate of mine who's in this field, and where as it does pay quite well pro rata, the work has, for freelancers, dropped off significantly over the last three years.

As to kit most of what you need, i.e. what constitutes a "kit" as would be recognized by most field sound recordists would be:

MKH816 or MKH60 Sennheiser shotgun
SQN4 portable mixer
Sony wired lav's
2 radio mic's (various makes acceptable here, but Tram's, COS11's, MKE 4's are popular)
Carbon fibre boom (aluminium versions are available, but the weight makes them a lot less popular even though they are cheaper.)
Camera Umbilical.

Much of the job is not just about sound, my mate has ended up directing, coaching talent, operating the camera and generally humping gear around, plus often you are required to guide the cameraman's movements so he doesn't fall down any manholes etc, whilst starring down the lens, oh and ability to be a diplomat is a must.

Hope this is of some use.

Regards


Roland

P.S. Much of this kit can be found for sale on Ebay, sometimes as complete kits!

[Jim vanBergen]

Don't forget a portable, battery-operated multitrack recorder with SMPTE timecode.
This may be optional if the people recording are using HI8 cameras and will take a mono feed from your boom/RF/lav mix and I suggest they still use the best available on-cam shotgun mic for ambient audio, as an emergency backup....though your audio will probably be far superior.

The Senn. 416 is the ideal mic for outdoor recording, Schoeps CMC6/MK41 is the INDOOR mic of choice. Don't forget shock mounts and windscreens for both, and a rycote for outdoor for the 416.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Don't forget a portable, battery-operated multitrack recorder with SMPTE timecode.
This may be optional if the people recording are using HI8 cameras and will take a mono feed from your boom/RF/lav mix and I suggest they still use the best available on-cam shotgun mic for ambient audio, as an emergency backup....though your audio will probably be far superior.

The Senn. 416 is the ideal mic for outdoor recording, Schoeps CMC6/MK41 is the INDOOR mic of choice. Don't forget shock mounts and windscreens for both, and a rycote for outdoor for the 416.

Very rarely do they use field recorders these days, except on drama and film so this is viewed as an optional extra. TV is now shot to Digibeta/DVCAM at least, increasingly HD, these camera's are usually equipped with 4 channel 48khz/24bit recording channels. The Schoeps is ok, but often used as part of a MS set-up as on it's own it will often record too much room so a shotgun is still often the weapon of choice inside, again the Schoeps is not considered as part of a "standard" kit though of course the Rycote is.

Regards


Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Roland

Schoeps is ok, but often used as part of a MS set-up as on it's own it will often record too much room so a shotgun is still often the weapon of choice inside, again the Schoeps is not considered as part of a "standard" kit though of course the Rycote is.
Regards

Roland

I love this board, I learn something every day! Roland, that's cool. It seems there is a BIG discrepancy in the indoor mic choices for boom work in NYC and Jolly Old England! The MK41 is a major player indoors here in NYC, and I have never seen it used as an M-S setup (but would love to see pics if you have them.)

While sure, in NYC many people ARE using DV-cam and DigiBeta, NYC still has TV features shot on film, and film schools still use film. Young/broke/breaking out filmmakers who shoot their own work are always happy with Hi8 cams but most of the serious film cinematographers/DP's I have met won't work on "tape" (or use one or two VT cameras for add'l footage to support multiple large format film cameras) and demand 35 or 70mm. But as the budgets get serious, the boom ops and location mixers are highly specified as well. I personally have only mixed for 16mm indie features, never 35mm/studio majors, but my friends who do the studio features are adamant about their specific gear, as are we all! My point is, of course, simply that all kits will require some flexibility, and I have found that expectations and specific equipment demands vary depending on how much budget the project has. Lower budget=more flexibility.

At least we agree that the 416 w/Rycote, a good lightweight boom, and mixer are a prerequisite. I also neglected to mention the possibility of inline headphone amps like the Shure FP-22 w/ Sony 7506 for the boom op, and often a spare for the director. Just a thought for your shopping list. Roland, do you see people using these across the pond, or are they distributing audio to boom ops & directoors in a different fashion?


Jim

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I love this board, I learn something every day! Roland, that's cool. It seems there is a BIG discrepancy in the indoor mic choices for boom work in NYC and Jolly Old England! The MK41 is a major player indoors here in NYC, and I have never seen it used as an M-S setup (but would love to see pics if you have them.)

While sure, in NYC many people ARE using DV-cam and DigiBeta, NYC still has TV features shot on film, and film schools still use film. Young/broke/breaking out filmmakers who shoot their own work are always happy with Hi8 cams but most of the serious film cinematographers/DP's I have met won't work on "tape" (or use one or two VT cameras for add'l footage to support multiple large format film cameras) and demand 35 or 70mm. But as the budgets get serious, the boom ops and location mixers are highly specified as well. I personally have only mixed for 16mm indie features, never 35mm/studio majors, but my friends who do the studio features are adamant about their specific gear, as are we all! My point is, of course, simply that all kits will require some flexibility, and I have found that expectations and specific equipment demands vary depending on how much budget the project has. Lower budget=more flexibility.

At least we agree that the 416 w/Rycote, a good lightweight boom, and mixer are a prerequisite. I also neglected to mention the possibility of inline headphone amps like the Shure FP-22 w/ Sony 7506 for the boom op, and often a spare for the director. Just a thought for your shopping list. Roland, do you see people using these across the pond, or are they distributing audio to boom ops & directoors in a different fashion?


Jim

It's true, you need a lot of "bits" leads, converter plugs, headphones etc. I don't have any pics of the Schoeps being used for location sound in an MS setup, often it is popular for film and Schoeps suit this application very well (the mikes roll off quite high, especially the MK8), however there are pictures on their site of this set-up (mostly using their miniture series versions) http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/boom-op-ccm.html#wsr100 . On this type of shoot you would probably be using a "sound cart" with 10-12 channel mixer and seperate recorder, not the usual type of ENG/documentary/budget drama that is the stock in trade of most location sound men. Over here, more and more film makers are going digital, it is much cheaper both in terms of stock and as almost all grading is done digitally these days it saves a lot of time and therefore money. The added advantage is that in many way's it is much more affordable to get a film made these days.

Regards


Roland

[aracu]

The Sennheiser 800 works well for recording interior dialogue in that
it´s polar patterns can adjust to the room. A pair of them set to a narrow
stereo image in a room makes for a much more realistic recording without
having to move a boompole around much. This is an untraditional
approach but works well. The stereo image can be adjusted in post
or narrowed down to mono if it´s not working. Similar using
one AKG426 stereo mic with it´s adjustable polar patterns and stereo
angle.
If you are working on a low budget film shot on Panasonic video,
you can record directly onto the camera, which saves a lot of
synchronization and file organizing work in postproduction, and
makes it unnescessary to use SMPTE. It makes for a faster work
flow. The audio quality will have a lot more to do with mic choice
and placement than the preamps used.
The less equipment with the most flexability the better.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by aracu

The Sennheiser 800 works well for recording interior dialogue in that
it´s polar patterns can adjust to the room. A pair of them set to a narrow
stereo image in a room makes for a much more realistic recording without
having to move a boompole around much. This is an untraditional
approach but works well. The stereo image can be adjusted in post
or narrowed down to mono if it´s not working. Similar using
one AKG426 stereo mic with it´s adjustable polar patterns and stereo
angle.
If you are working on a low budget film shot on Panasonic video,
you can record directly onto the camera, which saves a lot of
synchronization and file organizing work in postproduction, and
makes it unnescessary to use SMPTE. It makes for a faster work
flow. The audio quality will have a lot more to do with mic choice
and placement than the preamps used.
The less equipment with the most flexability the better.

Yes, but you have to adjust this on location and if you get it wrong it becomes a headache to fix. In this day and age on most major film production a lot of dialogue (probably about 80%) is ADR, however there are still directors that prefer to use the live sound as much as possible. Rifle/shotgun mic's have some real benefits here and today it is relatively easy to add convincing room verbs too taste. MS is popular with film guys as you have a degree of post production control that other techniques do not afford you. Film sound is a pretty exciting field with many interesting developements having taken place in recent years, though it is a million miles away from the usual TV sound recordists job. Looking out some old Audio Media magazines would make interesting reading for anyone interested in this field as they have increasingly, over the last few years, carried many articles about sound for film and video, often featuring some of the biggest players in the field.

Regards


Roland

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Roland

In this day and age on most major film production a lot of dialogue (probably about 80%) is ADR, however there are still directors that prefer to use the live sound as much as possible.

I don't think so. When we did "It's all gone, Pete Tong" there's not a single line of ADR in the entire film.
I've done ADR session for large fetaures, and they only ADR what they HAVE to for technical or performance reasons.
The features we do, albeit not huge 100 million dollar features, use mostly production. Again, keeping ADR to a minimum.
99% of the time, the production performance is always better than the ADR. And not becasue of the sound.

[MATTI]

In the 70`s to 90`s my choises were mkh 416 & 816 for outdoors and mk41 for indoors and mk41 & mk8 as ms pair for documentaries. Nowadays I would look at Sanken and the new Schoepps shotgun for alternative outdoor mics.
Matti

[Karl_Lohninger]

One sure learns new things every day......;-) To come back to the original question: location sound can mean different things - the main split being eng (video) respectively film. The most important thing I want to mention is that just having some equipment does not make you a sound mixer, recordist, engineer whatever - it's knowing how to use it. With ENG be prepared that 9 out of 10 camera operators have no clue regarding to where to plug or not plug your cable in, where to set timecode or even what dropframe means. You're on your own and to make matters worse, when there was a time when the camera was either BetaSP or DigiBeta, now there's myriads of different cameras used out there and yes, they are very different and ask for different treatment, different levels different everything. At least here in LA its standard now to have 4 incoming wireless systems and 2 wireless links going to camera with Lectro being the expected standard. Back up recordings are asked for more and more often - that can be small DAT machines or one of the new flash card recorders. Depending on the show the field director and the logging PA might ask for a Comtek feed meaning you need at least to receivers and one transmitter. As for what microphone you use - it's really up to you but the Sennheiser 415/416 are standard for very good reasons - they work! For interiors Schoeps 41s or similare (AKG63) are used. Mixer: whatever you have, but: minimum 4 audio inputs and as much (buffered) outputs as you need and with outs going to camera, back-up recorder, comteks you're needing a lot.

Going into equipment for film project is a whole other story - I'm not even beginning it here. Just that: your equipment package needs to be 'substantial' and more than that, your experience dealing with sound on film locations needs to be 'substantial' - it's very different to....home recording or whatever.

As an aside: stereo recordings in any form (MS etc) are not used ever on the west coast, not for film and not for ENG. If at all then maybe for some ambience recording, but I'm still waiting for the film production where it would be quiet enough to actually do that.

As another side note: There are some features shot with various kinds of HD cameras (never digibeta), be it Sony F900s or Vipers or whatever: about 95% of all times I run sound strictly double system and do NOT go into camera. It doesn't matter how many channels the camera is able to record - if at all I'm sending a comtek scratch track to camera. The recorder on my cart is always the main recorder where I have immediate confidence monitoring or can play back and check any file at any time I want. Anybody ever tried to check audio for scene 31/take 12 on a Viber or whathaveyou? The camera department probably has other things to do than to check if audio is actually on the tape/hard drive etc.

As another side note: A Sennheiser 800 has no place in location recordings for film or video productions.

And another one: 80 percent of location sound is ADR? Not where I live - not in Tinseltown;-)

Karl Lohninger
Los Angeles
sound and other things.....

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Karl_Lohninger

Going into equipment for film project is a whole other story - I'm not even beginning it here. Just that: your equipment package needs to be 'substantial' and more than that, your experience dealing with sound on film locations needs to be 'substantial' - it's very different to....home recording or whatever.

Yes, and going and buying a pile of gear to cater too non or lowpaying gigs isn't a good idea.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Karl_Lohninger

One sure learns new things every day......;-) To come back to the original question: location sound can mean different things - the main split being eng (video) respectively film. (snip/edited for space)
Karl Lohninger
Los Angeles
sound and other things.....

Karl, great post. WELCOME TO GEARSLUTZ!!!!! Good to have you here, those of us who know your work, we're all fans. Those who don't realize they have heard your work, they are fans and don't know it yet. (And the world gets smaller and smaller!)

Steve Remote runs a great forum here, please visit often & share your wisdom judiciously!

Jim

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I don't think so. When we did "It's all gone, Pete Tong" there's not a single line of ADR in the entire film.
I've done ADR session for large fetaures, and they only ADR what they HAVE to for technical or performance reasons.
The features we do, albeit not huge 100 million dollar features, use mostly production. Again, keeping ADR to a minimum.
99% of the time, the production performance is always better than the ADR. And not becasue of the sound.

Perhaps I worded it badly, but that's pretty much what I was alluding too. As you pointed out lower budget films avoid ADR for cost reason, some directors avoid ADR for performance reasons. The 80% figure was quoted in an recent article featured in Audio Media by a hollywood sound mixer with a string of "blockbuster" films to his credit "alla" Spiderman, King Kong, etc, if I remember correctly he lamented that many of these directors imediately ADR'd dialogue almost irrespective of whether it was required or not, I guess it is not unlike people in our (the music side) of the industry, who composite and autotune lead vocals or routinely perform drum edits, without considering why they are doing it or if it is of intrinsic benefit.

Regards


Roland

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Roland

Perhaps I worded it badly, but that's pretty much what I was alluding too. As you pointed out lower budget films avoid ADR for cost reason, some directors avoid ADR for performance reasons. The 80% figure was quoted in an recent article featured in Audio Media by a hollywood sound mixer with a string of "blockbuster" films to his credit "alla" Spiderman, King Kong, etc, if I remember correctly he lamented that many of these directors imediately ADR'd dialogue almost irrespective of whether it was required or not, I guess it is not unlike people in our (the music side) of the industry, who composite and autotune lead vocals or routinely perform drum edits, without considering why they are doing it or if it is of intrinsic benefit.

Regards


Roland

Well, the big action films usually have to do it, because of all the noise in the action scenes. IE harnasses, camera trolly's etc.
But when they did Blad II, we were doing ADR for some of it up here, and Kris Kristofferson was booked to do soem ADR. The session got cancelled at the last minute, but he only had, maybe, 5-6 lines of ADR.

[Roland]

I just wanted to qualify my original post slightly. I didn't consider whether the original poster was UK based or not.

In the UK a "Sound Kit" usually consists of the components I originally listed as by and large the work is ENG, documentary where the sound would be recorded to the camera via umbilical. Whenever my mate is asked to supply kit if a DAT or a flash recorder is required this is requested as an extra. His work is for the likes of BBC, NBC, ABC, ITV, Ch4, ZDF, Prime, Picture Canning etc and the "sound kit" is always the two Sony lav's 2 radio's, 416/816/MKH60, handheld reporter mic, SQN, carbon fibre pole, accessories set up. As Karl pointed out above film kit is a total melting pot and is probably very individual soundman/production dependent.

According to my friend, the cameramen he works with here (in the UK) are quite switched on when it comes to sound and timecode, unfortunately they have to be as with dwindling budgets increasingly it is not uncommon for the cameraman to be pinning a couply of LAV's on the talent or using the on board mic.

Regards


Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

We need more directors with Robert Altman's attitude towards ADR (disliked it, always wanted actual live dialogue tracks wherever possible).

It's a shame most directors seem to assume that looking good is more important than sounding good.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

We need more directors with Robert Altman's attitude towards ADR (disliked it, always wanted actual live dialogue tracks wherever possible).

It's a shame most directors seem to assume that looking good is more important than sounding good.

I collect (and watch) a lot of world cinema, particularly French/European and it becomes increasingly hard to watch Hollywood films these days. Sure the shots are perfect, special effects are amazing, technically flawless I guess, but they often tend to lack any real ability to tell a story or create characters you really care or are intrested in. I've been going through a Truffaut phase recently, he makes you feel like a voyeur and even when the story is "sureal" you are still sucked in.

Regards


Roland

[aracu]

Show me a recent Hollywood film with a credible
screenplay. 100 opinionated technitions plus $$
doesn´t equal good filmaking.

[MATTI]

Yes,
Robert Altman and his crew pioneered something.

tired Matti

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by aracu

Show me a recent Hollywood film with a credible
screenplay. 100 opinionated technitions plus $$
doesn´t equal good filmaking.

I don't know. I really enjoyed the new Bond.

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[RobMacki]

Coffey Sound

Trew Audio

Trew Audio has starter kits. Coffey Sound may have them too. Both have good books on the subject. Both have knowledgeable staff.

Schoeps is great and M/S is cool but IMVHO those are additional to a basic package for working in the field.
Basically to start out you should have:
Boom w/ mic (MKH416 standard) Zeppelin or Softie (for exteriors)
A couple of wireless lavs. Lectrosonics are at the top of the range.
Mixer either on a cart or in a bag. Sound Devices 442 or even a Mackie 1202 on a cart.
Cabling to service two cameras.
Back up if requested. Most budget shoots just want good audio into camera.
You can always rent a 44T or a Deva before shelling out $12k.
Sound blankets.

And the most important thing is:
Working knowledge before selling yourself for a job.
It's a whole different world with it's own protocol, vernacular and pecking order.
Sound is at the bottom.

You will need to quickly ascertain the acoustic environment.
When you hear "Camera Moves!" you better be there to service the camera or you cabling will get thrown in the mud.
You should have a knowledge of the camera(s) you will be servicing. F900? DVX100A? Send and return to/from camera. Gain stages. Etc.
You need to know what questions to ask the Line Producer when going for a gig.
Is there a deal memo? Don't sign it until the deal is on the paper!
You need to know where the Key light is coming from. Lighting is the Holy Grail.
You need to know what Frame Line is and where your Boom is at all times. And it's shadow!
You need to know who does what on the set.
You need to know when you can boom in and what "Picture's Up" means.
You might want to try to get a gig as a Boom Op before making an investment in $15-$30k worth of gear.

That's just a few items off the top of my head in no order.
Do some reading try to get on as a Boom Op with a seasoned mixer and see how it's done first.

Good luck.

[x99]

Hey guys, glad I found this thread, makes for interesting reading.
Can anyone say whether or not a forum exists purely for location sound? It's not something I have come across before.

[MATTI]

Look at this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a.../topics?lnk=lr
Matti