Classical Guitar Duo Recording

[Alex Wyler]

I am looking for some advice here from folks with lots of experience recording nylon string classical guitars.

I am recording a duo that will play together in a large Church.

I am looking for tips on:

Mic placement

Good High Pass filter rolloff frequency for two guitars as final mix, One panned hard left, the other hard right, with some mic bleed of course.

Phase issues?

Compression settings while tracking. I have to trakc with compression if there is going to be any because I only have 1 stereo compressor that I will need for the mix buss later.

Here is the gear I will be using:

Royer R122
AEA R84
Portico 5012 mic preamps
Portico 5043 Compressors
Apogee Rosetta 800
Samplitude
Trident mixing console

Thanks for any tips or advice. Really appreciated.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

I am looking for some advice here from folks with lots of experience recording nylon string classical guitars.

I am recording a duo that will play together in a large Church.

I am looking for tips on:

Mic placement

Good High Pass filter rolloff frequency for two guitars as final mix, One panned hard left, the other hard right, with some mic bleed of course.

Phase issues?

Compression settings while tracking. I have to trakc with compression if there is going to be any because I only have 1 stereo compressor that I will need for the mix buss later.



Here is the gear I will be using:

Royer R122
AEA R84
Portico 5012 mic preamps
Portico 5043 Compressors
Apogee Rosetta 800
Samplitude
Trident mixing console

Thanks for any tips or advice. Really appreciated.

Hi,

Some tips...

No compression at all, you don't want to use it on a classical guitar duo.
With the gear you have, the Royer will be enough if positioned correctly. I haven't listen to the Trident preamps but I guess they'll be cleaner than the Portico.


Good luck,
Pupo

Ooops...

I have to edit this!
I was confused about the 122.
If you want nice results you should try to rent some Omni mics then or even the Royer SF-24.
Cheers!

[Grizzly]

If I had to do this, I'd get an omni tube as the room mic getting the numerous, hopefully nice reflections of the church's walls, a stereo ribbon or a couple to set up closer to the duo and one mic per guitar to add more or less presence, depending on the songs if necessary. In my case, those mics would be two Coles 4038 (my favourite for nylon strings), but two R-84 would be as cool (and a bit less boomy too...)

No rule as for mic placement in churches IMO, I've never ever heard two of those having the same acoustic characteristics, that's why they are a great field of experimentation for music recording !...

Check phase as you place the mics, no compression required, and the way you've worked on your microphones setup will lead your final mix... (a HP filter at 60-70 on the close mics might be the only EQ needed if the guitars and the room are nice)

Have fun !!!...

Olivier.

[Alex Wyler]

Isn't 60-70Hz a little high to be rolling off at if these two guitars are the only thing in the mix?

I was thinking that 40Hz would be a good place to roll off at and then the low end of the guitar would take up the low end of the mix making it sound more like the full frequency spectrum is represented. Tehre is no bass guitar or Bass drum to live down there so 40Hz, where a lot of mastering engineers roll the entire mix off would be the best place to roll off the guitars would it not?

Would it not be better to roll off at 40Hz and then use a bit of low shelf EQ in the mix to decrease the over all bottom end if need be?

No compression at all? What about like 3dB or gain reduction on peaks in feed forward mode at a 3:1 ratio? That would be almost invisible but would get the levels a bit more uniform and overall the tone of the Portico preamps sounds much better when passing through the Portico compressor afterwards. it gives it more of a true Neve sound in my opinion. It sounds more Neve in the mids with the compressor in line. Would just a bit of compression hurt?

[tmcconnell]

Agree with the previous - spot mic the guitars at like 3 to 6 feet, and use a 3rd mic for ambience. Phase correct the ambient mic. Your likely issue might be too much ambience due to the fig 8 on the ribbons - so I might even take a cardioid next to the ribbons pointed away so that you would have some option to reduce ambience with phase cancellation. Might sound bad, but might be just fine and save you from a morass of reverb and you don't have to use it. Be aware of floor reflections, and keep the guitars as far apart as you can. Also, classical players complain about too much high end, they love the richness over the attack - so its a potential win to move the ribbons even closer so that the proximity bumps the lows. The r84 has a proximity effect that reaches a few feet. The 122 18 inches or so. I have both. It will likely sound beautiful with that gear - great mic choices. I'm not convinced that the "neve" sound is the goal for classical guitar. On compression, much of that will depend on playing styles. I would set the compressors if you must use them, to only reduce the gain on very loud strikes, and leave them out of the way otherwise. I would orient the ribbons so that the null plane is pointed at the floor. Most classical guitar parts (I used to perform this stuff) have loud sections and soft sections - the goal is to make a very broad based leveling so that the soft sections are loud enough but mastering could do this perhaps more effectively than you can . anyway.. I'll shut up.

[Recording David]

OK, I have a lot of experience recording classical guitar, both solo and duo.

I'm going to potentially throw a spanner in here - I definitely wouldn't use ribbon mics unless the players have some serious projection and your preamps are whisper quiet. I have simply found ribbons (Royers) to be too noisy for this.

You will only need 2 mics - forget room mics or spot miking, you need to approach this from the viewpoint of classical recording techniques. IMO the best mic array for 2 classical guitars is MS using excellent SD condenser mics (I use a Schoeps MS pair), which will give you fantastic stereo imaging and pick up the lovely acoustic of the church you will be in.

Alternatively I have had lots of success with ORTF or AB omnis spaced at about 40cm. The key is getting the mic placement right, so spend plenty of time with this - usually about 1-1.5m back from the instruments pointing a little above the level of the soundholes .

If you stick with these tried and tested stereo methods you will NOT NEED PAN, just go straight in on a stereo channel. The intention is to reproduce the performance, so placement of mics and players is more important. Forget compression - I assume you'll be recording at 24 bit, so this will give you all the headroom you need, I usually let my peaks settle at around -8 dBFS.

Good luck!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Isn't 60-70Hz a little high to be rolling off at if these two guitars are the only thing in the mix?

The normal lowest note on a classical guitar is E2 at ~82Hz although a lot of CG music uses a low D2 at ~73Hz. There is nothing below these frequencies generated by a classical guitar so a 60-70Hz rolloff is fine.

[d_fu]

Agree with everything David said, except:

- I don't like M/S (or XY, for that matter).
Would go for ORTF (or some derivative thereof) or AB with omnis. In any case, condensers.

- I would place two good spot mics, for an extra touch of presence / direct sound. They'd be mixed in with the main pair almost inaudibly. With a well-placed ORTF, this may not be necessary, but with an omni pair in a roomwith a good reverb, I'd definitelywant to have that extra touch.


Daniel

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Agree with everything David said, except:

- I don't like M/S.
Daniel

Hey Daniel - you mentioned that you don't like MS in the thread on harpsichord recording. Why is that? As I said, I like it for its imaging and easy control of direct sound vs ambience. What don't you like about it?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Hey Daniel - you mentioned that you don't like MS in the thread on harpsichord recording. Why is that? As I said, I like it for its imaging and easy control of direct sound vs ambience. What don't you like about it?

The lack of ambience, maybe... I find the sound narrow and too centered, esp. (but not only) over headphones. I prefer stereo techniques with at least some time difference. Super-precise pinpoint imaging is not a top priority in my recordings. The imaging in small AB, Straus or ORTF setups is good enough for me...

[Alex Wyler]

with steel string acoustics I usually point the mics at the 12th fret or thereabouts.

On these classical nylon string guitars would I point say my AEA R84 at the 12th fret also or somewhere else.

Also I usually have the mic on a steel string about 10-12 inches away fromt he 12the fret. Is this a good distance for placement for the Nylon string classical guitars as well?

Should my two ribbon mics be pointed at the guitars so that the mics run horizontal along the length of the guitar neck instead of vertically placed so the mics are in their upright position?

Thanks

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

with steel string acoustics I usually point the mics at the 12th fret or thereabouts.

On these classical nylon string guitars would I point say my AEA R84 at the 12th fret also or somewhere else.

Also I usually have the mic on a steel string about 10-12 inches away fromt he 12the fret. Is this a good distance for placement for the Nylon string classical guitars as well?

Should my two ribbon mics be pointed at the guitars so that the mics run horizontal along the length of the guitar neck instead of vertically placed so the mics are in their upright position?

Thanks

Seriously - if you are recording classical guitars you shouldn't close mic, like you would for pop acoustic guitars. You need to place your mics in a stereo pair a little way from the instruments. Have a listen to some recordings - John Williams, for example. The mics are not close.

If you are going to go ahead and use your ribbons I would arrange them in the Blumlein arrangement (crossed fig. 8, with the front of each mic at 90 degrees to the other).

[Roland]

I've followed this thread for the last few day's and have to say that I agree with recording Dave on this one, however if you don't have alternative mic's the MS thing would be the best to do with the two you do have. I would (in this case) use the AEA R84 as the side mic and the Royer as the mid. The Royers response is different on either side of the diaphram so as a side mic it's no good. I would choose either of your mic amps depending on which one produces the least noise and has the better amount of gain available, with classical acoustic guitars you are going to need it.

If you do have the option of quality condensor mics I would use them. Finally, all the talk above of close miking is only relevant if you have a main stereo pair and the close mic is being used as a spot for focus, otherwise view the two players as "an instrument"

Regards


Roland

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Roland

view the two players as "an instrument"