Classical Guitar Duo Recording

[Alex Wyler]

I am looking for some advice here from folks with lots of experience recording nylon string classical guitars.

I am recording a duo that will play together in a large Church.

I am looking for tips on:

Mic placement

Good High Pass filter rolloff frequency for two guitars as final mix, One panned hard left, the other hard right, with some mic bleed of course.

Phase issues?

Compression settings while tracking. I have to trakc with compression if there is going to be any because I only have 1 stereo compressor that I will need for the mix buss later.

Here is the gear I will be using:

Royer R122
AEA R84
Portico 5012 mic preamps
Portico 5043 Compressors
Apogee Rosetta 800
Samplitude
Trident mixing console

Thanks for any tips or advice. Really appreciated.

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

I am looking for some advice here from folks with lots of experience recording nylon string classical guitars.

I am recording a duo that will play together in a large Church.

I am looking for tips on:

Mic placement

Good High Pass filter rolloff frequency for two guitars as final mix, One panned hard left, the other hard right, with some mic bleed of course.

Phase issues?

Compression settings while tracking. I have to trakc with compression if there is going to be any because I only have 1 stereo compressor that I will need for the mix buss later.



Here is the gear I will be using:

Royer R122
AEA R84
Portico 5012 mic preamps
Portico 5043 Compressors
Apogee Rosetta 800
Samplitude
Trident mixing console

Thanks for any tips or advice. Really appreciated.

Hi,

Some tips...

No compression at all, you don't want to use it on a classical guitar duo.
With the gear you have, the Royer will be enough if positioned correctly. I haven't listen to the Trident preamps but I guess they'll be cleaner than the Portico.


Good luck,
Pupo

Ooops...

I have to edit this!
I was confused about the 122.
If you want nice results you should try to rent some Omni mics then or even the Royer SF-24.
Cheers!

[Grizzly]

If I had to do this, I'd get an omni tube as the room mic getting the numerous, hopefully nice reflections of the church's walls, a stereo ribbon or a couple to set up closer to the duo and one mic per guitar to add more or less presence, depending on the songs if necessary. In my case, those mics would be two Coles 4038 (my favourite for nylon strings), but two R-84 would be as cool (and a bit less boomy too...)

No rule as for mic placement in churches IMO, I've never ever heard two of those having the same acoustic characteristics, that's why they are a great field of experimentation for music recording !...

Check phase as you place the mics, no compression required, and the way you've worked on your microphones setup will lead your final mix... (a HP filter at 60-70 on the close mics might be the only EQ needed if the guitars and the room are nice)

Have fun !!!...

Olivier.

[Alex Wyler]

Isn't 60-70Hz a little high to be rolling off at if these two guitars are the only thing in the mix?

I was thinking that 40Hz would be a good place to roll off at and then the low end of the guitar would take up the low end of the mix making it sound more like the full frequency spectrum is represented. Tehre is no bass guitar or Bass drum to live down there so 40Hz, where a lot of mastering engineers roll the entire mix off would be the best place to roll off the guitars would it not?

Would it not be better to roll off at 40Hz and then use a bit of low shelf EQ in the mix to decrease the over all bottom end if need be?

No compression at all? What about like 3dB or gain reduction on peaks in feed forward mode at a 3:1 ratio? That would be almost invisible but would get the levels a bit more uniform and overall the tone of the Portico preamps sounds much better when passing through the Portico compressor afterwards. it gives it more of a true Neve sound in my opinion. It sounds more Neve in the mids with the compressor in line. Would just a bit of compression hurt?

[tmcconnell]

Agree with the previous - spot mic the guitars at like 3 to 6 feet, and use a 3rd mic for ambience. Phase correct the ambient mic. Your likely issue might be too much ambience due to the fig 8 on the ribbons - so I might even take a cardioid next to the ribbons pointed away so that you would have some option to reduce ambience with phase cancellation. Might sound bad, but might be just fine and save you from a morass of reverb and you don't have to use it. Be aware of floor reflections, and keep the guitars as far apart as you can. Also, classical players complain about too much high end, they love the richness over the attack - so its a potential win to move the ribbons even closer so that the proximity bumps the lows. The r84 has a proximity effect that reaches a few feet. The 122 18 inches or so. I have both. It will likely sound beautiful with that gear - great mic choices. I'm not convinced that the "neve" sound is the goal for classical guitar. On compression, much of that will depend on playing styles. I would set the compressors if you must use them, to only reduce the gain on very loud strikes, and leave them out of the way otherwise. I would orient the ribbons so that the null plane is pointed at the floor. Most classical guitar parts (I used to perform this stuff) have loud sections and soft sections - the goal is to make a very broad based leveling so that the soft sections are loud enough but mastering could do this perhaps more effectively than you can . anyway.. I'll shut up.

[Recording David]

OK, I have a lot of experience recording classical guitar, both solo and duo.

I'm going to potentially throw a spanner in here - I definitely wouldn't use ribbon mics unless the players have some serious projection and your preamps are whisper quiet. I have simply found ribbons (Royers) to be too noisy for this.

You will only need 2 mics - forget room mics or spot miking, you need to approach this from the viewpoint of classical recording techniques. IMO the best mic array for 2 classical guitars is MS using excellent SD condenser mics (I use a Schoeps MS pair), which will give you fantastic stereo imaging and pick up the lovely acoustic of the church you will be in.

Alternatively I have had lots of success with ORTF or AB omnis spaced at about 40cm. The key is getting the mic placement right, so spend plenty of time with this - usually about 1-1.5m back from the instruments pointing a little above the level of the soundholes .

If you stick with these tried and tested stereo methods you will NOT NEED PAN, just go straight in on a stereo channel. The intention is to reproduce the performance, so placement of mics and players is more important. Forget compression - I assume you'll be recording at 24 bit, so this will give you all the headroom you need, I usually let my peaks settle at around -8 dBFS.

Good luck!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Isn't 60-70Hz a little high to be rolling off at if these two guitars are the only thing in the mix?

The normal lowest note on a classical guitar is E2 at ~82Hz although a lot of CG music uses a low D2 at ~73Hz. There is nothing below these frequencies generated by a classical guitar so a 60-70Hz rolloff is fine.

[d_fu]

Agree with everything David said, except:

- I don't like M/S (or XY, for that matter).
Would go for ORTF (or some derivative thereof) or AB with omnis. In any case, condensers.

- I would place two good spot mics, for an extra touch of presence / direct sound. They'd be mixed in with the main pair almost inaudibly. With a well-placed ORTF, this may not be necessary, but with an omni pair in a roomwith a good reverb, I'd definitelywant to have that extra touch.


Daniel

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Agree with everything David said, except:

- I don't like M/S.
Daniel

Hey Daniel - you mentioned that you don't like MS in the thread on harpsichord recording. Why is that? As I said, I like it for its imaging and easy control of direct sound vs ambience. What don't you like about it?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Hey Daniel - you mentioned that you don't like MS in the thread on harpsichord recording. Why is that? As I said, I like it for its imaging and easy control of direct sound vs ambience. What don't you like about it?

The lack of ambience, maybe... I find the sound narrow and too centered, esp. (but not only) over headphones. I prefer stereo techniques with at least some time difference. Super-precise pinpoint imaging is not a top priority in my recordings. The imaging in small AB, Straus or ORTF setups is good enough for me...

[Alex Wyler]

with steel string acoustics I usually point the mics at the 12th fret or thereabouts.

On these classical nylon string guitars would I point say my AEA R84 at the 12th fret also or somewhere else.

Also I usually have the mic on a steel string about 10-12 inches away fromt he 12the fret. Is this a good distance for placement for the Nylon string classical guitars as well?

Should my two ribbon mics be pointed at the guitars so that the mics run horizontal along the length of the guitar neck instead of vertically placed so the mics are in their upright position?

Thanks

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

with steel string acoustics I usually point the mics at the 12th fret or thereabouts.

On these classical nylon string guitars would I point say my AEA R84 at the 12th fret also or somewhere else.

Also I usually have the mic on a steel string about 10-12 inches away fromt he 12the fret. Is this a good distance for placement for the Nylon string classical guitars as well?

Should my two ribbon mics be pointed at the guitars so that the mics run horizontal along the length of the guitar neck instead of vertically placed so the mics are in their upright position?

Thanks

Seriously - if you are recording classical guitars you shouldn't close mic, like you would for pop acoustic guitars. You need to place your mics in a stereo pair a little way from the instruments. Have a listen to some recordings - John Williams, for example. The mics are not close.

If you are going to go ahead and use your ribbons I would arrange them in the Blumlein arrangement (crossed fig. 8, with the front of each mic at 90 degrees to the other).

[Roland]

I've followed this thread for the last few day's and have to say that I agree with recording Dave on this one, however if you don't have alternative mic's the MS thing would be the best to do with the two you do have. I would (in this case) use the AEA R84 as the side mic and the Royer as the mid. The Royers response is different on either side of the diaphram so as a side mic it's no good. I would choose either of your mic amps depending on which one produces the least noise and has the better amount of gain available, with classical acoustic guitars you are going to need it.

If you do have the option of quality condensor mics I would use them. Finally, all the talk above of close miking is only relevant if you have a main stereo pair and the close mic is being used as a spot for focus, otherwise view the two players as "an instrument"

Regards


Roland

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Roland

view the two players as "an instrument"

thumbsup thumbsup

[GES]

Hello,
I was about to start a new thread, but I think this one is about what I was going to ask advice for: classical guita...trio.
I am classical guitarist myself, and David have given me advices about classical recording in the past...(thanks David!!)...Roland too, sometime he really told me how I screwed things up in a recording where I played with orchestra and recorded at the same time (never again)...(thanks too Roland).



I recorded my first naxos CD last january (me playing), and there were no close mics...as David is suggesting.
But last week I played in a recording for a film, and that is another history...because in film they want close sound...and maybe procces it later too with compresion...?

Anyway, next week I have three days recording sessions with a classical guitar trio. They will record world premier pieces by contemporary composers, with a touch of traditional influence.

I am very excited, and would like to try blumlein (first time) as main pair, with two milab dc196, and omni flanks with km183. But....I find them a little too bright (km183), and if the players have nail sound, or the first three strings are a little bit old, one can hear everything with these km183. All going into davBG2 and rme ufx.

The venue is very good, not church like with super reverb, but clear enough, big enough, and the half of it is dry (audience part), and the other live, with wood in floor and walls (stage)


Could someone please give me an advice on these combination?

my other available equipment is:
(all stereo pairs)

km184
lineaudio cm3
se 4400a

Thanks again in advance!
Pablo Garibay

[Matti]

With all probability you have one channel phase reverted

Matti

[boojum]

I am with Recording David. A simple ORTF can do wonders. I have attached a recording of a guitar and fiddle recorded with an ORTF array at about 4' to 5' high and 4' to 5' from the performers. Recorded at 88.2/24. No compression, reverb or any other treatment.

I was directed by the fiddler who has a gorgeous studio - world class - with all the really good Neumanns which have been hot-rodded to their pristine best and has been a musician and engineer longer than I have had hot meals. He said simply, "Record it like it is classical; ORTF."

It sounds alright. Sounds good after Matti caught me out and I replaced it with Freight Train. Thanks Matti!


For the few who are really listening closely yes, the one channel had a phase inversion and both channels were reversed. This was all fixed in post in the other editor. I moved the source files to a newer editor and lost the editing dialog(ue) in the xfer that were imbedded in the older editor. It is fixed here now. But there is a discrepancy between the pic and the MP3. Sorry about that.

[GES]

Originally Posted by Matti

With all probability you have one channel phase reverted

Matti

what do you mean?

[rmaier]

We did our debut disc using MC930s in ORTF about six feet away and five feet high along with SM81s for spots.

[Matti]

Originally Posted by GES

what do you mean?

Read above

Matti

[urse121]

Originally Posted by Recording David

You will only need 2 mics - forget room mics or spot miking, you need to approach this from the viewpoint of classical recording techniques. IMO the best mic array for 2 classical guitars is MS using excellent SD condenser mics (I use a Schoeps MS pair), which will give you fantastic stereo imaging and pick up the lovely acoustic of the church you will be in.

Alternatively I have had lots of success with ORTF or AB omnis spaced at about 40cm. The key is getting the mic placement right, so spend plenty of time with this - usually about 1-1.5m back from the instruments pointing a little above the level of the soundholes .

Agreed - well put, Recording David. This is exactly my experience - when done right, MS sounds fabulous on classical guitar (f.e. the Stavrou's J. Williams recordings)! My favourite technique, however, is two omni SDCs spaced at about 40 cm, around 1,5m away from the guitar, angled slightly outwards.

Alex, if you're interested, listen to my classical guitar experiment with different recording techniques (ABs w/ different spacing and omni vs. cardioid, ORTF, MS, XY) on my blog.

I've never used ribbons on classical guitar, but I'd love to try a pair some time.

Pablo, have you had the opportunity to compare the Line Audio CM3 against km184? I'm very curious to hear your opinion.

Best,
Uros

[GES]

Hi Uros,
What I like about the cm3 over the km184 is that the lineaudio have more warm sound. The km184 are a little too bright sometimes, if the hall is bright too.
If the hall is very good i prefer the neumanns, but if the room is not warm enough, I use the cm3...

What I like about the neumans though, is that they have bigger output....

:-)

(there is a thread with A/B comparison between cm3 and km184...i don´t remember where...i played there Dionisio Aguado's rondo for guitar...i think)

[Thamdrup]

I could really need some advise for a recording session I'm having in the near future, and I think it fits in this thread:

I am doing a recording of a classical contemporary quintet for four guitars and percussion (one percussionist plays maracas and bassdrum).

I will be recording in a world class studio with a live-end and a dead end. I plan on using the dead end because I don't like the live-end sound for classical. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the reflections in the live end would be good for the players.

I plan on position the players with the four guitars in a half circle - like in a traditional string quartet. And then the percussionist in front of them so he will play in the opposite direction.

For my main set I will use two DPA 4006 in an AB configuration. And I will place the AB set in the middle of the circle. I think I will spot mike too, so that I can get more definition in the mix if needed, but I'm not sure on that one.

For spot miking I have these microphone available:
- 4 x DPA 4011 cardioid (I might use them on the guitars)
- 2 x Neuman TLM 193 cardioid (might use one on maracas)
- 2 x DPA 4006 omni (bass drum)
- 2 x DPA 4021 ORTF set (I could use these as an alternative main set)


My question goes rather vague: What do you think about all this? Any comments and advice will be highly welcome.

- Thamdrup

[fifthcircle]

For something like that, it will very much depend on the style of sound the client is going for... As to live end or dead end- without knowing the studio, it is hard to say. I would generally go for the live end unless there is something really wrong with it as guitar needs the ambience for their sound to work. Having the Perc get some of its sound soaked up at the dead end probably isn't bad either unless there is so much bass trapping that the bass drum sounds anemic.

The AB pair on the guitars will probably work just fine- spaced omnis and guitar are usually a pretty good combination. Depending on the room, you could very well get away without spots- especially if it is a dead space. Bring the omnis in a bit and let the pattern pull in some room but position to make sure you get enough direct sound. If you are going to want to use a lot of digital reverb, the close mics may help with that. Also, if the group cannot balance themselves, you may want to spot to allow for options there in the future.

Also, if you end up spotting the perc with any stereo techniques and that player is facing the quartet, you may find that you need to pan it backwards from the other group. Otherwise, you'll end up with a situation where the bleed on one stereo pair is opposite of the bleed on the other which really messes with the overall image.

--Ben

[Thamdrup]

Thanx for the answer Ben.

During the day I have been rethinking, and in the evening I heard the musicians play the piece at a concert.

I think you might be right Ben about the guitarplayers need for the natural reverb in the live end, and that the dead end could suit the percussion well (there's not to much bass trapping, I have recorded a lot of drums and bass instruments there with good results).

At the concert I realized that the maracas part are played on some small metal shakers (I don't know the name of them), and that sound is very bright and I have to be carefull about the balance with the guitars.

So now I think I will try to put the guitars in the live end, and give them there own mainset (AB with omnis probably). And then I will put the percussion in the dead end and giv him his own stereo set (and pan it opposite). The live end and the dead end will be parted by a glass wall. The percussionist told me, that as long as there are visual contact everything will be fine. (I think I will have headphone mix ready for him - just in case).

Yes I will have to put a good deal of digital reverb on in the mix, and I think you are right about, that spot mikes can help with that.

-Thamdrup

[Plush]

May I suggest that good training for this upcoming recording is to listen to old Segovia and Romero records. Also John Williams records. What you will find is almost always these are recorded with ribbon mics not too close.

Let the classics speak to you.

[fifthcircle]

I would tend to agree that ribbons are fantastic for classical guitar. I've made some pretty awesome recordings using AEA R84 or 88 and Royer ribbons (especially the SF24V). That being said, the OP of this part of the thread did not mention any ribbons in his arsenal so I didn't mention them...

--Ben

[Thamdrup]

I just thought I would share with you, how the actual session went:

I arrived at 8 in the morning about one hour before the musicians to put up microphones, set up the session in pro tools, the great LAWO console, patch for talk back ... and so on.

As I have planed I placed the four guitarist in the live end, and miked them up with ORTF (DPA 4023) and spots (DPA 4011).

The percussionplayer was placed in the dead end separated by a glasswall and miked up with AB (DPA 4006) and spots (Neumann TLM 193 on maracas and DPA 4006 on basdrum).

The musicians arrived ... They were very exited and happy, and they brought me coffee and everything (to persuade me to do it their way as they said ;-)) ... After this short social event, I went on, they played, I moved microphones around, ran back and forth between the studio and the control room and after 30 min. we were ready to have the first take.

I brought the musicians in to the control room to listen and to talk a little about the session plan. They were very pleased with the sound and it really felt like everybody was comfortably.

We recorded three movements of contemporary classical guitarmusic, and I had my challange to follow everything in the score, give critics, write session notes to the cut manustribt, stay calm and give direct and clear instructions. But somehow I managed.

At 17 (5 PM) we had everything recorded in 55 takes. We cleared the studio, smoked some cigaretes, and at 18 we were ready to cut. Three hours later I bounced some MP3's for the musicians to listen at before we go into the mix (I only think it will take a couple of hours to mix it - levels, reverb and master EQ and very gentle master compression.)

The musicians left with a smile on their faces :-)

Friday (tomorrow) we have another session with two of the guys in a guitar duo. It will take no more than two hours, and then we have the rest of the day to cut and to mix.

Sory for a long post ... Oh and by the way, I don't have any ribbons, but I would really like to try them. Thanks again

[boojum]

Great. Post some if you can. Your mics were all good ones. I had one musician comment on the 4006 TL's as "brutally honest." Maybe an LDC would have been more flattering. Or a ribbon, of course. Next time.