XFMRs...Where to buy?

[Gerax]

Hi all

I'm here again asking about mic XMFRs for a custom made mic splitter I'd be willing to build. The problem is, I cannot seem to find those little suckers (the XFMRs) at a reasonable price. I know that quality comes at a price, but I'd like to know if there's an alternative way other than ordering them direct from Jensen and saving up some cash...those of you who actually built a self made passive mic splitter...where did you buy yours?
Also, is there some alternative to the pricey Jensens?

Thanx

L.G.

[foldback]

Here is a web site link you could check out:

http://crimsonaudiotransformers.com/

I've known the owner for almost 20 years. He has stock models available and he does custom work. John is a little bit "cun-tree" in a very good way, one of the nicest guys on the planet.

More importantly, he makes some really good sounding audio transformers. He also makes some really cheap ones but he's trying to stay alive and must compete with China and Mexican sources. He is an OEM for some very big brands.

The standard Red ones shown on his web site work and sound fantastic.

I've been to his shop many times, it's old school construction all the way, no fancy automated winding machines, just beautiful women winding coils by hand and stacking laminations. John has a nice custom mu-metal can that he packages splitters and mic pre transformers in.

Tell him "Mark the ship guy in St Louis" sent you :-)

[Jim vanBergen]

less expensive than Jensen is Lundahl. Per Lundahl's work is excellent, and the specs are ALMOST as good as the tried and true Jensen, which is what...@ $40 ea?

Do a google search and you will find a distributor.

[MIKEHARRIS]

Whirlwind buys quantity from Jensen and Lundahl...should be able to offer you good pricing

[bishopthomas]

Crimson calls splitter trannies "bridging transformers." Would <A Href="http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=159">this</A> do the trick?

[bit mangler]

Cinemag transformers are also pretty well known for their quality-linky

[foldback]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Crimson calls splitter trannies "bridging transformers." Would <A Href="http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=159">this</A> do the trick?

NO, the one you're pointing to is fine for line level but not good for mic level signals.

Bridging refers to the load that the transformer puts on the mic line.

The simple explanation is, the bridging transformer primary attaches to an existing mic circuit and does not "load down" the mic circuit. When a circuit gets "loaded down" the signal level falls and the frequency response turns to crap. That's bad.

All quality mic splitter transformers are bridging transformers. It's old school transformer speak.

The RDL piece you pointed at is good for bridging a line level signal. In fixed installations it is common to need to send a signal to multiple systems. Normally we use a distribution amp for this so there is zero interaction between all the systems. Sometimes a bridging transformer is easier (no power supply required) and cheaper (requires much less labor to install).

Stick with transformer parts that are intended for splitting mics. There is no free lunch.

The Crimson parts on their web site really do work very well. I can't tell you that back in the early 90's they took apart a Jensen (of mine) and copied it exactly because that would violate my NDA.

So I won't tell you

that's how they did it....

I'd never tell you that Deane Jensen stole a lot of his designs from Ed Reichenbach either. So I won't tell you

that's how he did it.

I have a tremedous respect for what Deane achieved. I spoke to him several times in the 70's and he inspired me to build a lot of electronics. He was one of the best when it came to nailing down exactly what a part did in a circuit. I still have my old gray Jensen transformer binder on the shelf in my library.

The Jensen web site is filled with lots of great technical information. Go there and use it to fill your head up with knowledge.

And then go make some great recordings :-)

[Gerax]

Thanx for the reply guys, I'm doing my research. I hope I'm coming up with some good numbers. So far it seems that building my own 24 ch splitter is going to hover around 1400€ (you do the math for USD). Once you start adding all of the XFMRs (which are the big bulk of the money) and the multipin connectors with relative snakes the sum quickly goes up...I wonder if it's worth it, or if I should go for something prebuilt, like the Radial 8ch splitters (and get 3 of them) and only do the D-Sub 25 cables to get the parallel and ISO lines...

Foldback, I just checked in with Crimsonaudiotransformers, I'm just waiting a reply from him on the quote for 24 of his XFMRs plus shipping.
Same thing with the Cinemag, thanx for the link bit mangler.

I'll let you know, in the meantime your opinion are wellcome as always.

L.G.

[foldback]

I'm using two Elco 56-pin sockets for the outputs on my new 16.x2 splitter.

I'm wiring them to the spec of the old Alesis Adat elco. I've collected a few used Adat elco snakes from ebay for $20 each. I changed the female XLRs to male and suddenly it's a nice disconnectable output for my snake for cheap. One of the snakes I bought is a 20 foot Proco. Most of the others are only about 12 feet long.

In most cases a 16 channel split works for me because I use as many of my own mics as possible so I don't need to split so many channels.

Food for thought.

Best of luck with your construction.

Mark

[Remoteness]

Be very careful when you make or break those connectors. Look for bent pins and fix them before to match the suckers. I really don't not recommend using them as your on syage splitter box, but since you already got it happening follow those simple rules.

Furthermore, do not let anyone interface those ELCO/EDAC 56 pins unless they also lnow the drill.

[foldback]

I appreciate your input. I have not plugged/unplugged these very often. I know the gold pins are very soft and bend easily. I had all the parts in stock and the premade snakes were low cost so I was attracted to the idea.

What kind of multi-pin plugs would you recommend?

[Remoteness]

Search this forum and you will find a boat load of information about this topic.

[big country]

Originally Posted by bit mangler

Cinemag transformers are also pretty well known for their quality-linky

Ive had good luck with thier ribbon trany.

the splitter trany goes for $37 bucks it geats cheaper by the #'s

plus thier a nice bunch.

[bit mangler]

big country

How do they compare with the jensens -please share if you have any experience.

[Gerax]

According to the price list I downloaded from Crimson's web site and the answer I got from Cinemag the first ones are even a bit cheaper, they go for 35.5$ for a 24 ch order. It would be cool to know the differences in sound between them and the Cinemags, or even the Jensens.

About the ELCO/EDAC connectors, I remember that during what was maybe my first real location gig (recording a 4 piece rock band with full orchestra in Brusselles, some 7 years ago, great experience BTW) we had a main snake coming out from the venue (Le Cirque Royale) going to the remote truck as a parallel split supplied by the local sound reinforcement company. Needless to say it was terminated with an ElCO/EDAC connector, and I had some hard time figuring out why I was missing some of the channels...then I opened it up and there it was...the bent pins...

Cheers

L.G.

[Remoteness]

Why not but one of each and do a side by side test with a few different microphones and mic pres?

I did a test like that with the newer Whirlwind trannies and I didn't hear a big enough difference in the sound.

The shielding and RFI rejection is an important part of it all and we never usually talk about it. It's always about the sound.

Yeah, ELCO/EDACs for stage use is an issue when you're not careful when mating them. You always have to look for bent pins -- You must look closely because some pins maybe slightly bent and will bend on the next insertion. Also, you must carry the proper tools and a bunch of extra pins for good measure!

Originally Posted by Gerax

According to the price list I downloaded from Crimson's web site and the answer I got from Cinemag the first ones are even a bit cheaper, they go for 35.5$ for a 24 ch order. It would be cool to know the differences in sound between them and the Cinemags, or even the Jensens.

About the ELCO/EDAC connectors, I remember that during what was maybe my first real location gig (recording a 4 piece rock band with full orchestra in Brusselles, some 7 years ago, great experience BTW) we had a main snake coming out from the venue (Le Cirque Royale) going to the remote truck as a parallel split supplied by the local sound reinforcement company. Needless to say it was terminated with an ElCO/EDAC connector, and I had some hard time figuring out why I was missing some of the channels...then I opened it up and there it was...the bent pins...

Cheers

L.G.

[big country]

Originally Posted by bit mangler

big country

How do they compare with the jensens -please share if you have any experience.

I have only tried the ribbon trany from Cinemag, I bought on the fact that

AEA uses them in thier ribbons. give Dave Geren a call at Cinemag, supper

nice guys plus its a family run biz thats been around since the early 50's.

Tel (818) 993-4644

[esumsea]

I emailed this to remoteness but thought it would be pertinent to this discussion:

Hello Steve,

I am a fellow gearslut and have corresponded with you about remote recording and snakes etc. I have a bunch of jensen 4 way splitting transformers but they are not housed in anything right now. The splitter box and multipin snake system I want to construct is prohibitively expensive right now. I have found, however that there are pre-made boxes by whirlwind that can give me a 24 channel split at fairly cheap prices. These are stand alone with no snake but 24 in and two sets of 24 outs, one direct and one isolated. I figure I could use these for now and see how much business I can garner using this system and a regular 24 channel snake. I got emailed a horror story about a whirlwind splitter that I have pasted before. It does not seem like it is very accurate, for there must be something wrong with the box to have this problem. Also it contradicts your comments stating that whirlwind, while not esoteric as the jensens, can still do the job.
-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXXXXXXXX@comcast.net
To: esumsea@aol.com
Sent: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Whirlwind transformer Horror Story
sure ...
it is the splitter at house of blues in los angeles ...
the transformers that are in it can not suppress the EMI in and or around the club ... if you go with whirlwind get the jensen or lyundhal (sorry for spelling) transformers and you should be just fine ..
we would always rent transformers from Design FX
peace john
On Feb 4, 2007, at 10:32 AM, esumsea@aol.com wrote:
I am considering buying a Whirlwind transformer split box by whirlwind for remote recording. You wrote you had a horror story. Can you recount it for me?
Regards,
Mario
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my question: Will the drop in quality between the jensen and the whirlwind be so great as to nullify, or weaken the chain, of using api, neve and calrec preamps, or will the weak link not be that weak at all. I just want to be able to see what kind of business I can drum up before investing thousands more over the @ $125,000 I have spent in gear over the past ten years. Because of my OCD always focusing on quality and setting the bar high, I have never gotten the local recording business going. I can use this box for now (I can probably get it used for @ $800) and maybe order a 100' mogami/canare snake. Then maybe I can add multipins to the snake and keep them connected to the box in a case and then I can finally, if business is good, build the pro box. What do you think? Also I have a couple of questions:

Is there a multipin snake that has think jackets on the fan out? I hate these mogami snakes I have that have two 22 or 25 gauge wires with the shield and a thin jacket of a raius of maybe 1/8. They seem so weak and barely use the strain relief. When ever I use them I say to myself "There has got to be another way!"

What is the best multpin system you have used in terms of ruggedness (and to a lesser degree affordability)? I have heard good and bad about Elco (I have seen many broken ones, with bent pins, but I don't know if that is from user error), Whirlwind W series and ramtec. The Itt cannons intrigue me as do the veem, and those available from phase three in England....
Thanks for your time!
Best Regards,
Mario

[LX3]

At some point I'll get around to posting some pics of my self-built splitter. 24-channel, stagebox type. It uses Lundahls, which IIRC ended up costing around £30-£35 a piece from Canford Audio.

Sounds great, you absolutely cannot tell the split from the direct (aside from the couple of dB drop). I've listened insanely carefully. So I'm quite happy taking the iso split if the live engineers insist on having the direct.

Multiway connectors are Veams (or rather, the PlusConnection versions, also from Canford.) I'm using two 85-pin connectors - one carries the directs and four extra tie lines, the other has 24 x isolated ouputs. The other "Iso B" output and a paralleled Direct appear on the front panel on XLRs.

Pictures would be worth a thousand words, so I'll dig around and see if I can find some photos. I'm sure I took a bunch before I screwed the back panel down.

The only thing I'd say about building your own splitter is, don't forget to factor your time into the cost. If you do, you'll probably find it's more economical to go and buy a commercial splitter. Mine took a good two years to design and build, and while it's exactly what I wanted (it's my pride and joy and never fails to wow people at parties) if (when) I need another I'd seriously consider buying a commercial one and investing my time somewhere else.

When I built mine I was broke (probably from buying all those transformers and the custom metalwork!). The one thing I did have was time. Now I'm fractionally less broke and have no time at all.

Paul

[lampmeister]

Hey LX3, did you find those splitter pics? The splitter sounds very sweet, would love to see it.

Cheers!

[LX3]

Haven't found the pics I took when I was building the thing unfortunately (pre digital camera days... will have to hunt thru loads of shoe-boxes) but I happened to take a picture or two at a gig I did recently.

They're up at http://pope.smugmug.com/gallery/2247922

No massive detail, you can't really see the Veams etc, but you get the idea.

[Gerax]

Hey, nice pics, I guess it must've been a fun gig!

Slightly OT: Those pres you're using are Audient ASP008, right? How do you like them? And what mixer is that one racked above the Alesis HD24? How many channels can you monitor with it (being that you've got 3 8ch pres and a 24ch recorder I guess it's 24)?

Thanx

L.G.

[lampmeister]

Great stuff there LX3, cheers!

[Remoteness]

L3X,

I like the case that surrounds your splitter.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Gerax

Hey, nice pics, I guess it must've been a fun gig!

Yep... great band working with Lee Scratch Perry. So easy to mix. With such good players and well-chosen mics in the right places, it almost mixes itself. Makes a change compared to some of the indie bands I record.

Slightly OT: Those pres you're using are Audient ASP008, right? How do you like them?

Yes, it's three of the Audients. They seem to sound great... although I still want to do a proper shootout against the other pres I have.

But I get the feeling that things are warmer and smoother-sounding than they were in the days when I only had three Octopres. Can't prove it of course... there's a chance that it's partly due the effect that spending money has on your ears

Planning on adding more esoteric pres at some point. But the Audients seem to keep everyone very happy. Most of my clients (that know what they're looking at) are pleased to see them.

My only issue is that the build quality on the Audients isn't all it could be. But not so bad that it bothers me once they're in a rack.

And what mixer is that one racked above the Alesis HD24? How many channels can you monitor with it (being that you've got 3 8ch pres and a 24ch recorder I guess it's 24)?

It's the old Roland M240R rack line mixer from the late 80's. Yes, 24 channels. They show up on eBay from time to time. For monitoring purposes, it does the job. Foolproof - just turn the power on and go.

Paul

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

L3X,

I like the case that surrounds your splitter.

From you Steve that's high praise, thanks. You can't really see it properly in the pics, but when the lid comes off it exposes the top and the end with the veams, all in one hit. I definitely appreciate the stupid amount of time it took to build at every gig it comes to.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by LX3

From you Steve that's high praise, thanks. You can't really see it properly in the pics, but when the lid comes off it exposes the top and the end with the veams, all in one hit. I definitely appreciate the stupid amount of time it took to build at every gig it comes to.

No problem, it's apleasure to see good craftsmenship!

So, you built that splitter box -- Awesome!

Originally Posted by LX3

...It's the old Roland M240R rack line mixer from the late 80's. Yes, 24 channels. They show up on eBay from time to time. For monitoring purposes, it does the job. Foolproof - just turn the power on and go.

Paul

Yeah, those M160s; M240s; M480s are pretty good for monitoring.
We have a few of the M480s and one M160s.

I try to bid on them when they become available on eBay, but sometimes they go way over price for what it is.

I'm looking for an M240 or two for my Alesis HD24XR set-up.
I'm lloking to build a one rack 24 channel/track set-up.

[bishopthomas]

Can you recommend any other 24 track rack-mount line mixers that are easier to find that the Rolands?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Can you recommend any other 24 track rack-mount line mixers that are easier to find that the Rolands?

Not for that price point.
You can (sometimes) find those Rolands at a very decent price.

sMackie made a rack mountable mixer for a second.
I never see them for sale, but I haven't looked for them in awhile.

[LX3]

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of anything other than the Roland that squeezes 24 analog mono channels into a rack.

Everything else seems to top out at 16 channels.... or they do something annoying like tell you it's 32 channels... but configured as 16 stereo inputs, which isn't a lot of help.

Designing and building a really high quality 24-channel rackmount monitor mixer (with solos and basic eq) was going to be one of my other projects... before I saw sense and nipped myself in the bud (so to speak)

See what you've done, you've got me thinking about it again.

Paul