Mike Stands for Arrays

[Rick DeGraeve]

This will probably seem mundane to many of you. I've been doing high school bands & choirs for about 15 years now in both acoustically good & bad churches & auditoriums, even gymnasiums! I’ve mic’d with various setups with reasonable results. I find I’m usually more demanding of the results than most of my clients. But all that aside…

I’ve been lucky in that mike stand placement has never been an issue. – ‘til now. I’ve been using multiple stands sometimes with small stereo bars to set up arrays such as a Deca Tree or something similar. Now I’m subcontracting for a video outfit and I’m finding it’s necessary to try to limit the number of mike stands I use. I’m wondering what you folks out there use. I see quite a few different mic array setups discussed (and by the way I’ve learned a LOT). The array pics are great but I can’t quite get a grip on what’s being used to support them. I’m hoping I can pick up a few ideas to help me out!

Thanks everyone! If there’s anywhere I can count on some help, I know it will be here!

Rick

[Jim vanBergen]

For arrays most people use a tripod base stand with a special (sometimes custom) hanger for Decca. I've managed to only buy ONE monstrous stand so far, and have made do with flown mics and Atlas MS25's with boom arms to date. H

Have you looked at the other thread regarding mic bars? Lots of great stuff. Also look at Wes Dooley's website, though his prices are on the higher end, it's a great resource. Do a search, my friend.

[Remoteness]

Latch Lake stands rule especially because of all the attachments you can add on!

[digital_wiz]

I use photography light stands when I want to get the mics up high. Shure makes a sturdy 14 foot aluminum microphone stand specifically for that purpose but it is expensive ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...i-20/ref=nosim ). It may be the right choice if you are raising heavy LDCs. Photo light stands are cheaper but you will still want to buy a decent quality one. You can get a Bogen 13 footer for ~$100 at many retailers. Couple that with the Bogen 3110 triple microphone support and you are set for many applications. I place butterfly sandbags on the tripod base for extra stability when necesssary.

[pkautzsch]

Any way to use Schoeps Colette system (capsule extensions in Nextel grey w/ the body attached to the other end)? That's what many TV crews use when miking orchestras and stuff.
Bit expensive, though. Maybe rental?

[travisgarrison]

Originally Posted by digital_wiz

Shure makes a sturdy 14 foot aluminum microphone stand specifically for that purpose but it is expensive ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...i-20/ref=nosim ). It may be the right choice if you are raising heavy LDCs.

After picking up the Shure S15A a few months ago, I will agree that it's a great mic stand. However, sturdy wouldn't be one of the first adjectives that spring to mind. Even raising the stand to 8-10 feet with a stereo pair of KM184's can be quite wobbly. I wouldn't want to put anything heavier up there. But perhaps I just worry too much...

[digital_wiz]

Originally Posted by travisgarrison

After picking up the Shure S15A a few months ago, I will agree that it's a great mic stand. However, sturdy wouldn't be one of the first adjectives that spring to mind. Even raising the stand to 8-10 feet with a stereo pair of KM184's can be quite wobbly. I wouldn't want to put anything heavier up there. But perhaps I just worry too much...

I'm surprised to hear that it is wobbly with just a couple of SDC mics, but then I don't own the S15a, I only saw it in my local pro audio shop and it looked to be well built. Adding weight to the base (sandbags) can vastly improve the stability of a tall stand.

http://www.lindcraft.com/sandbags/sandbags.html

[chadly]

Originally Posted by digital_wiz

I'm surprised to hear that it is wobbly with just a couple of SDC mics, but then I don't own the S15a, I only saw it in my local pro audio shop and it looked to be well built. Adding weight to the base (sandbags) can vastly improve the stability of a tall stand.

http://www.lindcraft.com/sandbags/sandbags.html

I agree with the sandbag idea in general- but for the Shure stands that's not the problem. The base is as secure as any could really be. It's in the body of it that is the problem. Its a bit wobbly over 7 feet or so. I'm never worried about it tipping over, but it's certainly not straight up and down.

I need a wee bit of Viagra for my Shure stand. (grin)

[David Rick]

I have several Manfroto (Bogen) "high boy" stands that work fine for SDC stereo pairs and occasionally for single LDC outriggers. They're cheap, and they're easy to move around the hall when you're trying to find just the right placement. They have a 3/8" threaded lighting stud on the top, so you need an adapter. Wes Dooley at AEA sells better ones than the ones that typically come with microphones.

For heavier arrays, its time to break out the serious stuff. I have a couple of AEA stands with an "articulated leg" that lets stay vertical on sloping auditorium floors. You can probably buy the same thing from a good lighting supplier, but when you buy them from AEA they come with a specially-designed 5/8" lighting stud receiver with 5/8" threads on the top and burley jam nut. Buying it alone costs $45, so factor that in before you go looking for a deal on a lighting stand.

I never worry about flying putting anything on these big stands: Decca trees, five mic arrays, seven mic arrays, whatever. They're heavy enough that I don't even bother with sand bags.

AEA web site

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[bishopthomas]

I'm probably helping add to the demise of these stands being so cheap, but search eBay by seller amvona. All the auctions start at a fourth of a dollar, and the stands are decent. I have an air cushioned and a regular, just need sandbags as they are fairly lightweight.

[Rick DeGraeve]

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions. There are more than one that I'll make use of - lots of options for setup.

One of the best I found was from doing a search (DUH! should've done it firs) as suggested by Jim. Looks lige a good place to start & something to build on. In case anyone is interested, here's the link for those that haven't seen it.

http://istudio-g.com/decca_tree/


Thanks all again!!

Rick

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by Rick DeGraeve

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions. There are more than one that I'll make use of - lots of options for setup.

One of the best I found was from doing a search (DUH! should've done it firs) as suggested by Jim. Looks lige a good place to start & something to build on. In case anyone is interested, here's the link for those that haven't seen it.

http://istudio-g.com/decca_tree/


Thanks all again!!

Rick

These are also available in the US from Ultimate Support Systems(USS), and can be purchased from virtually any guitar shop.
I've gone as high as 60" with the USS stands and the metal pipe couplers with a TLM-50 or 70cm stereo bar on top. We regularly put up a Decca tree on a boom on these stands. While it may look precarious, they are actually very stable when balanced correctly. We have "highly modified" weights for these stands that are made from 30 lb stage weights and some gaffers tape.
The other thing that we did years ago was to fill the aluminum pipes with foam to reduce the resonance. We had an engineer from Philips that was convinced that the pipe resonance was audible and refused to use the stands. After filling the pipes with pipe insulation (Ironic, I know...) he was perfectly happy with them. I must admit that he was right, After hearing the damped pipes the sound was subtly different.
Also, the Shure stands are actually made by the company APIC (American Photographic Instrument company, Inc.) in New Jersey. They have a whole series of similar stands that are different sizes and include a lifetime guarantee. We have stands from them that are 30 years old that have been back for repair 3 or 4 times. Each time they come back like new.
Al the best,
-mark

[Rick DeGraeve]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

The other thing that we did years ago was to fill the aluminum pipes with foam to reduce the resonance. We had an engineer from Philips that was convinced that the pipe resonance was audible and refused to use the stands. After filling the pipes with pipe insulation (Ironic, I know...) he was perfectly happy with them. I must admit that he was right, After hearing the damped pipes the sound was subtly different.

Thanks Mark for the help! What kind of foam did you use to fill the pipes with? Did you stuff in foam padding or did you use something like the insulation/expanding foam you can buy at home depot in cans?

Thanks again!
Rick

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by Rick DeGraeve

Thanks Mark for the help! What kind of foam did you use to fill the pipes with? Did you stuff in foam padding or did you use something like the insulation/expanding foam you can buy at home depot in cans?

Thanks again!
Rick

Rick,
We used the dense preformed pipe insulation that is split to go around your water pipes at home. It was a bitch to get inside the pipes, (Try wire lube to assist in getting it inside the pipes)but sounded far deader than the spray in stuff. The spray foam is just not as dense and didn't get into the middle of the 6' pipe sections. Even when we tried spraying it from both ends it just didn't make it into the middle.
All the best,
mark

[joelpatterson]

Truth be told, it's actually rice in my sandbags... I find the most reasonably priced brand at the grocery store, and then get canvas tote bags from the art supply store.

The cheaper brands of rice come in sturdy plastic bags, five pounds or ten pounds. Slip them in the colorful canvas totes, bungee cord them onto the base of the stand.

And I could survive for days if I ever got stranded near a water supply with a kitchen.

[Remoteness]

I live in Flushing, NY...

There's trillions of tons of rice here and it's very inexpensive.

Great idea -- Thanks for sharing!

[Dr Bob]

We have been using those 5 lb weights that runners strap around their ankles,. They have velcro straps so we strap one around each leg of Manfrotto light stands. . .really quick and convenient.

[Doozer]

I am going to use this (optimized cardioid triangle) set up this weekend for the first time. This is a bogen bar on a bogen stand and is very solid, I use weights on the bottom just incase the stand gets bumped. I am using 3 Schoeps MK41s and an earthworks TC30K. The TCK is used only to pickup the lower range that the MK41s miss. I roll off the highs during mixdown to mirror the Schoeps low pass filter. I will upgrade the earthworks omni to a Schoeps omni when I can afford it.
Hope this is helpful. Rick

[Rick DeGraeve]

Thanks for all the GREAT tips! I picked up an American DJ light stand & I'll post some pics when I get a chance along with anyhting I learn putting it to use that hasn't been posted! Thanks again!!

[klaukholm]

My favourite setup for orchestral mains (3 M150/m50) is:
manfrotto avenger B150 crank stand
Manfrotto avenger Junior boom (not so junior by the way)
AEA decca tree

It fulfills all my requirements,
wheels, crank, very little resonance, stable, goes high (21') and has no problem handling heavy mics extended 6' out on a heavy boom at 21'.

This is one sexy stand!

links:

B150,
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...list&sku=67844

junior boom,
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

aea,
http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/Microph...sitioners.html

[tamasdragon]

K and M makes choir stands which are very good quality, and not so expensive.

Tamas Dragon

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by Doozer

I am going to use this (optimized cardioid triangle) set up this weekend for the first time. This is a bogen bar on a bogen stand and is very solid, I use weights on the bottom just incase the stand gets bumped. I am using 3 Schoeps MK41s and an earthworks TC30K. The TCK is used only to pickup the lower range that the MK41s miss. I roll off the highs during mixdown to mirror the Schoeps low pass filter. I will upgrade the earthworks omni to a Schoeps omni when I can afford it.
Hope this is helpful. Rick

At first I was worried that you were using a MK41 for the center mic instead of a MK4. But since your omni mic is basically coincident with your center hypercardioid, I see that when you mix them together, it will pull the pattern back towards cardioid. Neat idea!

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[sonare]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

Rick,
We used the dense preformed pipe insulation that is split to go around your water pipes at home. It was a bitch to get inside the pipes, (Try wire lube to assist in getting it inside the pipes)but sounded far deader than the spray in stuff. The spray foam is just not as dense and didn't get into the middle of the 6' pipe sections. Even when we tried spraying it from both ends it just didn't make it into the middle.
All the best,
mark

Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tubes for stands? The resonance of aluminum is a fact, and certainly contributes its own sound signature. This was especially apparent when recently evaluating the Enhanced Audio M600 mic mount. Now to see if the sonic advantage of the M600 are negated by Sorbothane isolation from the floor---

Rich

[JEGG]

I'm bringing this thread back to life because someone is always looking at mic stands, and I just happened on this thread.

I would add this:
I have been using Ultimate Support Speaker and Light stand products for supporting microphones. I have the "tall" basic tripod, supplemented by various "stems" and couplers. Some time ago, Ultimate Support quit making the "boom couplers," probably because of liability issues. At that time there was a series of products called "Thinker Toys," which were all the modular parts needed to construct almost anything. I can put together this stand to reach heights of 20 and more feet. And if you're around the right stage and chairs/pews, it doesn't even need to be "walked up," and will hold substantial weight. It doesn't rattle.

Lately, I just wanted something that was a bit smaller and lighter to carry, and little less obtrusive (though that could be argued), and so I decided to try the industry standard Shure S15a stand.

This was a big mistake. The S15 has been around for a long time, and has been sourced from a number of different manufacturers, and also the specifications and quality have changed considerably over the years, especially regarding its height! It's always been called the S15 but its been shorter and tall(er). It will just hit 15 now although the official spec's say "not quite."

Currently, the stand is made by TestRite in New Jersey. The stand I received is a disaster.

Immediately out of the box, it was apparent that the threads were defective to the point of being inoperable. That the fact that it was even put in a box raises serious questions about quality control. It was as if someone were cutting the threads and then just pulled the tube away. The threads were distorted, full of burrs, and the top of the tube was ragged and torn. Rubbing hands over the stand resulted in a metallic gray compound appearing on my hands, along with many tiny reflective metal bits. S(h)ure enough, nothing could be put on those threads. I was tempted to repair them by filing the top "level" and removing the burrs, but the threads were too distorted to try this.

Meanwhile, I set up the stand. Very poorly made. First, the whole thing rattles! As in, while walking near the stand. Looking into the stand from the bottom gives the full explanation. All of the tubes are "grabbed" at only one point. There are no bushings and no guides. Consequently, the stand can be very firmly tightened but the all of the telescoping tubes bang into themselves inside the stand. As everything is done by rivets, no real hardware can be adjusted and tightened

Back to the threads: The top telescoping piece of metal is so thin, that even if the threads were perfect, I think that putting something as simple as an ORTF mount up there would be dangerous.

Less obvious things: When the stand is folded up, and set on its end, it's the center stem and lightly welded and lightly riveted joints that contact the ground, because the feet of the legs remain higher up. This is dumb, really dumb.

So: the stand arrived defective (threads not usable).
IF the threads were useable, the stand's design makes it worthless-it rattles loudly while standing "still," and the top is to thin and too flimsy to hold anything.

BTW-for those who trumpet that Shure is made in the "good ol' USA" (I don't!), take note that at least part of this little kit bears a decal stating "Made in China."

By the way, I have some cheap and kind of awful Chinese mic stand accessories. There aren't very good frankly-but they are lots better-especially the threads-than this Shure product.

Oh, yeah: this stand is not inexpensive.

[BLP]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

My favourite setup for orchestral mains (3 M150/m50) is:
manfrotto avenger B150 crank stand
Manfrotto avenger Junior boom (not so junior by the way)
AEA decca tree

That is one sexy rig, my friend...

[recordsmith]

Not to hijack the tread, but I am. I have been using the super heavy K&M stand for years. They are not tall and well heavy, and just not suited for the work I have been getting lately.

What do you guys like to use? Have seen from the above, that lighting stands work well. I am looking for the lightest and the most portable stands I can get.

--Jon