Y Lead Splitters

[ryane]

Hey

I am new to location recording and have set myself a little project of making myself an 8 channel splitter and just wondered if i could run this by your expertise if you've got a second.

It's literally 8 Y leads in drilled rack unit.

However having read some of the posts from Remotness regarding transformers and other various complicated things i won't pretend to understand. I find my self wondering whether my humble Y lead Splits are sufficient to do the job?

the other query i have is relating the carrying of phantom power? How would this work? My intention was the keep the Actual Split cables short and put them Post Snake and up at my end of the room.

Does this sound ok or a waste of 24 neutriks

Cheers

[Jim vanBergen]

You can certainly (add) load transformers in a rack unit for an isolated output. That is much preferred to hard Y splits, which is not horrendous, but will affect both your recording and the live PA enough to make you want the transformers!!!

In short, don't do the Y unless you have no other choice. Since you're fabricating this, go ahead and look for a mic splitting transformer -you'll appreciate it in the long run!

[Remoteness]

Hey there and welcome to the forum!

It's nice to see folks designing and building their own devices and such.

IMO, you must add an isolating splitter tranasformer to your rack unit. It's the only way you can be sure your chassis will not touch the other sound system's chassis.

Adding isolation transformers and a few ground lift switches (for your eight pin one on the isolated side of the splitter) is not as complicated as you may think.

On the phantom power (48V) front: The direct side aka primary side of your transformer splitter will feed the phantom power to the mics. Whomever is getting the direct feed must supply the 48 volts.

Please explain your short cable/post snake intentions again. How will you feed the FOH or MON desks if the splitter is with you at your end of the room? Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly.

[bishopthomas]

It sounds like he is wanting to set up by the FOH or monitor console (probably one in the same) and take a split where it comes into the mixer.

[foldback]

If you can't afford to stuff out your system with isolation transformers on all the channels, you could get some standalone mic splitter boxes and use them on critical channels like vocals and drums where double mic's would suck. Then use your own microphones on the other instruments (provided you have some mics). I've been doing this for a long time and it keeps my recording system isolated from the PA. I also do it because I want to use my own mics for my sources instead of the house sound guys mics.

It works both ways on the isolation thing, if you're trying to get a good low noise recording you don't want your system humming anymore than the live sound guy wants to hear any more hum in his system.

A passive wye-connection on a mic is very bad, and always to be avoided.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

It sounds like he is wanting to set up by the FOH or monitor console (probably one in the same) and take a split where it comes into the mixer.

Okay, that sounds like a good plan, but you're only as good as the snake and/or cables the other persons using. In a clean and up to date venue it's not usually a problem. When the venue or sound company has poor maintenance issues and no budget it can be a real drag.

Originally Posted by foldback

If you can't afford to stuff out your system with isolation transformers on all the channels, you could get some standalone mic splitter boxes and use them on critical channels like vocals and drums where double mic's would suck. Then use your own microphones on the other instruments (provided you have some mics). I've been doing this for a long time and it keeps my recording system isolated from the PA. I also do it because I want to use my own mics for my sources instead of the house sound guys mics.

It works both ways on the isolation thing, if you're trying to get a good low noise recording you don't want your system humming anymore than the live sound guy wants to hear any more hum in his system.

A passive wye-connection on a mic is very bad, and always to be avoided.

For me, everything input or output is considered a critical channel. But, I know what you mean, you could always double mic pretty much everything except the vocals or it's going to look like your back in the old days when double miking the vocals was a lot more common place.

I've double miked drums. It looks strange, but I don't rally have a problem with that. So what, there's more mics the drums. It make the drummer feel special.

You're right, how wants a humming system? No one does. Isolation transformers with ground lifts is a great solution when double miking is not possible or practical.

[ryane]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Okay, that sounds like a good plan, but you're only as good as the snake and/or cables the other persons using. In a clean and up to date venue it's not usually a problem. When the venue or sound company has poor maintenance issues and no budget it can be a real drag.




For me, everything input or output is considered a critical channel. But, I know what you mean, you could always double mic pretty much everything except the vocals or it's going to look like your back in the old days when double miking the vocals was a lot more common place.

I've double miked drums. It looks strange, but I don't rally have a problem with that. So what, there's more mics the drums. It make the drummer feel special.

You're right, how wants a humming system? No one does. Isolation transformers with ground lifts is a great solution when double miking is not possible or practical.

The replies for this is much appreciated - however I am only just starting to learn about the technical side of these things and so my knowledge is very basic so I won't pretend I understand any of this! Sorry!

Is there anybody who would be kind enough to explain this in more laymens terms, or even point out a website or book I could purchase to help better my understanding on this kind of topic.

Up until now I have been very much a understand what equiptment I need and learn how to use it type of person, and I am trying to learn more of how things work.

Thanks again for your help!

[foldback]

Proco makes some individual mic splitter boxes that have one XLR input and two XLR outputs. Watch for them on ebay.

On the Proco splitters, one output is straight through from the input, that's the one I'd feed to the recording so YOU get the best sound, you (the recording rig) provide phantom power to these mics if needed. The other output is transformer coupled (isolated), that's the one to send to the PA. The transformer will block phantom power sent from the PA mixer.

The recording system and the PA system need to be electrically isolated from each other, that's the whole big deal about using transformers to split the signal. The Proco boxes I was talking about are not the best in the world but they are not bad either. Since you're just beginning, buying these would get you some decent splitters with ground lift switches and no further technical knowledge is needed to start recording.

Buying individual splitter boxes lets you invest over time, just buy what you need, they're all wired up and ready to go. I got by for years by having a dozen standalone splitters, now I'm building a new 16x2 splitter with Elco disconnects for the outputs.

Double mic'd means a mic for the PA and a mic for the recording, this gives you the ultimate isolation, no electrical interaction because they're completely separate systems.

In my previous post I used the word "critical" which was a poor word choice. What I was attempting to say is, use splitters on mics that you can not easily double mic.

Vocal mics and sometimes drums can not be double mic'd easily. If you look at some old video recordings from the 1960's you'll see a second vocal mic taped on top of the regular vocal mic. That was how the video guys achieved isolation from the sound guys. I did that a few times back in the 70's but it looks bad and if the singer wants to pull the mic off the stand and prance around it's hard to do with two mic's taped together. Now we use transformer splitters to do it send the vocal mic's to two or three systems.

On drums I use the little Sennheiser mics that clamp on the rim, they're small enough that I can add them to almost any drum kit, even one that is already mic'd into a PA system. I did some A-B tests in my studio and liked the sound of the little Sennheisers. I also like not having to set up more mic stands.

I like to record killer blues bands. The funky old clubs (in bad neighborhoods) where I've recorded mostly have house PA systems and their mic collections are in pretty bad shape. I like to use my microphones as much as possible so I get a better sound on the recording. That's why I like double mic'g. In a perfect world all mic's would sound good and make it unnecessary to go to these lengths.

Those funky clubs often have kind of a sketchy PA system too (what a surprise). If you go plugging your stuff in and their PA starts acting up they may blame you. If you double mic then the lines are kept divided.

The worst I ever had with bad PA system was the St Louis Cathedral. They were insisting I use their mic sockets and feed off their mics. I said NO, I used wireless mics to pick up the sound at that gig. As I was loading out (after the gig) their maintenance guy asked me how the audio was, I said great. He told me that everybody complains because their system hums when outsiders jack in. Wow was I ever glad i used my own mics. I was doing audio for video and it came out "hum free" because I had no connection to any of their sound equipment.

Hope that's laymen enough for you. Best of luck to you.

[ryane]

Originally Posted by foldback

Proco makes some individual mic splitter boxes that have one XLR input and two XLR outputs. Watch for them on ebay.

On the Proco splitters, one output is straight through from the input, that's the one I'd feed to the recording so YOU get the best sound, you (the recording rig) provide phantom power to these mics if needed. The other output is transformer coupled (isolated), that's the one to send to the PA. The transformer will block phantom power sent from the PA mixer.

The recording system and the PA system need to be electrically isolated from each other, that's the whole big deal about using transformers to split the signal. The Proco boxes I was talking about are not the best in the world but they are not bad either. Since you're just beginning, buying these would get you some decent splitters with ground lift switches and no further technical knowledge is needed to start recording.

Buying individual splitter boxes lets you invest over time, just buy what you need, they're all wired up and ready to go. I got by for years by having a dozen standalone splitters, now I'm building a new 16x2 splitter with Elco disconnects for the outputs.

Double mic'd means a mic for the PA and a mic for the recording, this gives you the ultimate isolation, no electrical interaction because they're completely separate systems.

In my previous post I used the word "critical" which was a poor word choice. What I was attempting to say is, use splitters on mics that you can not easily double mic.

Vocal mics and sometimes drums can not be double mic'd easily. If you look at some old video recordings from the 1960's you'll see a second vocal mic taped on top of the regular vocal mic. That was how the video guys achieved isolation from the sound guys. I did that a few times back in the 70's but it looks bad and if the singer wants to pull the mic off the stand and prance around it's hard to do with two mic's taped together. Now we use transformer splitters to do it send the vocal mic's to two or three systems.

On drums I use the little Sennheiser mics that clamp on the rim, they're small enough that I can add them to almost any drum kit, even one that is already mic'd into a PA system. I did some A-B tests in my studio and liked the sound of the little Sennheisers. I also like not having to set up more mic stands.

I like to record killer blues bands. The funky old clubs (in bad neighborhoods) where I've recorded mostly have house PA systems and their mic collections are in pretty bad shape. I like to use my microphones as much as possible so I get a better sound on the recording. That's why I like double mic'g. In a perfect world all mic's would sound good and make it unnecessary to go to these lengths.

Those funky clubs often have kind of a sketchy PA system too (what a surprise). If you go plugging your stuff in and their PA starts acting up they may blame you. If you double mic then the lines are kept divided.

The worst I ever had with bad PA system was the St Louis Cathedral. They were insisting I use their mic sockets and feed off their mics. I said NO, I used wireless mics to pick up the sound at that gig. As I was loading out (after the gig) their maintenance guy asked me how the audio was, I said great. He told me that everybody complains because their system hums when outsiders jack in. Wow was I ever glad i used my own mics. I was doing audio for video and it came out "hum free" because I had no connection to any of their sound equipment.

Hope that's laymen enough for you. Best of luck to you.

Hi Foldback

This indeed helps better the understanding of it. And I think for the time being I will probably invest in some individual split boxes for the time to speed up the process.

In terms of the making my own splitter project, I am still really keen to learn this and understand it so i can do it.

I understand i maybe becoming a pain in the arse.

But how would i fix these transformers in, where would they go in wiring scheme?

Is there any particular transformer I would need?

Most Splitters I see have, Direct Out and then 1 or 2 Tranformered(?) outputs. Based on what you were saying then, how i read it, the outputs sepearated by tranformers are protected from any crap coming from the Feed electrically? But the direct outs are as said on the tin, DIRECT outs?

If you could help on how it would be wired! I promise I leave you alone!

[foldback]

No worries mate.

Here's a little JPG of a 1x3 Jensen splitter. You can find the full story with lots of technical details on the Jensen Transformer web site.

I hope it helps.

Mark

[foldback]

Originally Posted by ryane

Hi Foldback

But how would i fix these transformers in, where would they go in wiring scheme?

Is there any particular transformer I would need?

Fixing them in.... I'm thinking you mean how to mount them. Most transformers have some kind of flange for mounting, I use little bolts, washers and nuts. In the really cheap splitter boxes they just squirt in a glob of Silicone and stick the little transformer in it. It works for a while but after the box gets dropped a few times it becomes a percussion instrument (shaker), the transformer breaks loose and swings around until the wires pull out, not good.

Go to the Crimson web site and click on the tab for Microphone Splitting transformers.

Originally Posted by ryane

Most Splitters I see have, Direct Out and then 1 or 2 Tranformered(?) outputs. Based on what you were saying then, how i read it, the outputs sepearated by tranformers are protected from any crap coming from the Feed electrically? But the direct outs are as said on the tin, DIRECT outs?

Splitter transformers are used for isolating one electrical system from another and doing it without degrading the sound quality or adding hum and noise.

I like to feed the recording system with the direct output (the straight through connection from the input of the splitter box), this gets the best sound on the recording.

Regardless of who makes the transformer and how good it is, a transformer WILL distort the audio passing through it ever so slightly, some people call this color.

[ryane]

Originally Posted by foldback

Fixing them in.... I'm thinking you mean how to mount them. Most transformers have some kind of flange for mounting, I use little bolts, washers and nuts. In the really cheap splitter boxes they just squirt in a glob of Silicone and stick the little transformer in it. It works for a while but after the box gets dropped a few times it becomes a percussion instrument (shaker), the transformer breaks loose and swings around until the wires pull out, not good.

Go to the Crimson web site and click on the tab for Microphone Splitting transformers.



Splitter transformers are used for isolating one electrical system from another and doing it without degrading the sound quality or adding hum and noise.

I like to feed the recording system with the direct output (the straight through connection from the input of the splitter box), this gets the best sound on the recording.

Regardless of who makes the transformer and how good it is, a transformer WILL distort the audio passing through it ever so slightly, some people call this color.

Thanks for your help, I just need to learn what the stuff in this diagram is all about!

I found a similar one on the proco site.

There's soo much stuff to learn! I think i've got some of the way then you uncover loads more.

I know F-all about those type of block diagrams, but trying to apply a shred of common sense to it, are the connection between the input and the direct out effectivly a Y lead??

How would the transformer then be connected to the input? and finally then to the isolated output?

Send me a paypal account and I will pay you a consultants fee.

I just figure asking is the only way to learn, seeing as google aint helping!

Thanks again