Harpsichord reference recordings?

[sonare]

The "Sound on Sound" article is very detailed. Real "state of the art" gear, with the contending mics being the Sonodore RCM402, Schoeps MK21, and Royer SF12. Grace micamps and Prism Dream A/D.

The Sonodores won, but I have been told by a friend who has compared both that Joesphson C617 with Gefell MK221 capsule is almost indistinguishable.

Rich

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Are these cars that I hear in the backround? Like a low rumble?!?

Unfortunately, the hall is right next to the street.. Not a lot of traffic there, but it is audible. Which is a shame, because this could be an ideal location for chamber music recordings otherwise...

[d_fu]

Thought I'd post this here instead of opening a new thread...
Did some preliminary test-recordings for the upcoming harpsichord duet project. Thought I'd try a Blumlein with my matched pair of C414TL (not TLII) and was pleasantly surprised. The room was less than ideal (with a Kindergarten next to it... ) and I didn't spend a lot of time finding the perfect position, but the result ain't all that bad (see attachment)....

Not easy to bring the mics into position, esp. if you want them to face downward a little bit.

Daniel

[mosrite]

Any of you guys heard Dr.Andreas Holschneider's recording of Telemann on the Archiv label (419 633-2)? Not solo Harpsichord I know but damn I find that whole recording addictive (in a multiple mic, extreme clarity kind of a way, doesn't harm that the performances and music are exceptional of course)...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Any of you guys heard Dr.Andreas Holschneider's recording of Telemann on the Archiv label (419 633-2)?

Yup, I have that, it is indeed a fabulous CD in many ways. Esp. the final movement of the recorder/flute concerto is sheer madness... They (Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel) play it twice as fast as Hogwood... And this recording is about 20 years old now. One of my favourite baroque music CDs.

Daniel

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Thought I'd post this here instead of opening a new thread...
Did some preliminary test-recordings for the upcoming harpsichord duet project. Thought I'd try a Blumlein with my matched pair of C414TL (not TLII) and was pleasantly surprised. [snip]

Daniel

Hi, Daniel.

The sound is great, with exactly the kind of detail I like in harpsichord recordings. Blumlein is a wonderful technique, in the right space, and this recording seems to bear that out. I use a Blumlein pair as the primary stereo track when I record symphony orchestras. The sense of air and place come through brilliantly in your recording. And you say you simply and quickly set it up? Fantastic! Two slight quibbles: the overall volume seems unnaturally loud (although I own many label recordings of exceptionally loud harpsichord). Is this the way it sounded when you recorded, or did you do something in post? My other comment would be that the panning results in, to my ears, too much separation between the instruments. I hear the dreaded "hole-in-the-middle." I would hesitate to suggest pulling the mics back a bit, since the ratio of direct to reflected sound seems so good. How about panning the stereo image more to the center? I've found in my own recordings of orchestras, I almost never pan full left/right in the stereo channel.

Regards,

Lloyd

[d_fu]

Lloyd,

Originally Posted by loranoyd

The sound is great, with exactly the kind of detail I like in harpsichord recordings.

Thanks for the compliment. How do you like the sample I had posted earlier in comparison?

Two slight quibbles: the overall volume seems unnaturally loud (although I own many label recordings of exceptionally loud harpsichord). Is this the way it sounded when you recorded, or did you do something in post?

Not really, a slight raise of volume maybe, but it's not even normalized, much less compressed. But you're right in principle, normalizing is something one shouldn't do with harpsichord recordings, they can be a bit softer...

My other comment would be that the panning results in, to my ears, too much separation between the instruments. I hear the dreaded "hole-in-the-middle."

Well, there is a hole between the instruments...
I did this purposefully to an extent, because this is more of a demo (for a label), and I wanted the instruments clearly separated.

I would hesitate to suggest pulling the mics back a bit, since the ratio of direct to reflected sound seems so good.

I initially just placed the mics where I thought they'd sound good (just by looking, not listening). For a short test, I pulled them back a little and didn't like the change, so I put them back to where they were and left them...

How about panning the stereo image more to the center? I've found in my own recordings of orchestras, I almost never pan full left/right in the stereo channel.

I'd never pan stereo pairs... Especially not in the case of AB/ORTF or so, but even with coindident stereo, it isn't really a good idea.

I've not tried Blumlein as a main mic for orchestra, and I'm a bit reluctant to do so, but maybe I will try it one day, starting perhaps with a chamber orchestra or so.

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Instead of panning, one should rather adjust the angle between XY mics if one incounters an unwanted hole in the middle. Smaller angle = less hole in the middle. This will keep the reverb fully spread.

[David Spearritt]

Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".

[mosrite]

Yup, I have that, it is indeed a fabulous CD in many ways. Esp. the final movement of the recorder/flute concerto is sheer madness... They (Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel) play it twice as fast as Hogwood... And this recording is about 20 years old now. One of my favourite baroque music CDs.

I'm glad that you also like it. I have an audiophile friend who now uses it all the time when checking new bits of stupidly priced gear.

I do love the recording and was wondering if you happened to have any idea how it was recorded? I don't think I'm hearing Schoeps with this, perhaps Neumann? It's definitely studio I think and with multiple stereo pairs.

My only quibble with the recording technique is the ghosting of the flute (especially on the first movement). I have now gotten used to it, however, and kind of like it!

Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".

Excactly. One of the advantages of using a coincident array is that there will be no 'hole in the middle.'

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I do love the recording and was wondering if you happened to have any idea how it was recorded?

I have no idea whatsoever...

My only quibble with the recording technique is the ghosting of the flute (especially on the first movement).

Never noticed that, I must admit... Which piece are you referring to?

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".

I suppose I mis-spoke before. What I was trying to convey is that, to me, the recording exaggerates the space between the two instruments in a way that sounds unnatural. Now, admittedly, I was listening under less-than-ideal headphones (ear buds, actually), and doubtless that contributes to the overly pronounced hard right/hard left sound. From the audience's perspective, I can imagine a more blended sound, and that would be the sound I would picture in my mind's ear (so to speak) if I were to attempt such a recording. Different objectives, I suppose, produce different results. What did the two performers think?

Regards,

Lloyd

[soundeziner]

Oh how this thread hits home....

I work for the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. I get to wear a nice variety of sound hats here but everything is 18th century. I certainly have learned a few things about harpsichords. Perspective is everything with these little fiends. A listener 8 feet away doesn't get the richness and warmth the performer does. This, I guess, is the reason why most harpsichord recording sound so thin and wimpy. One of our more recent CD's 'Keys of the Palace' (I like pun's what can I say?) was an experiment in what we believe to be actual 18th C temperaments. available at http://www.williamsburgmarketplace.c...tgroupId=14131 If any of of you give it a listen, please let me know your thoughts on the sound.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by soundeziner

If any of of you give it a listen, please let me know your thoughts on the sound.

How was this recorded? I must admit I don't particularly like the sound, esp. with (good) headphones. A bit too distant, a bit thin, a bit too much in the center (could be XY or MS)...
I also don't really like the sound of this particular instrument, but that's a different matter.

What kind of tuning is this?

[audiothings]

daniel

about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...

[sonare]

Originally Posted by audiothings

daniel

about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...

In my experience with the SF12, the need for presence trumps the "rules"-- we are recording musicmaking, not following a recipe.

Rich

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by sonare

In my experience with the SF12, the need for presence trumps the "rules"-- we are recording musicmaking, not following a recipe.

Rich

But the "recipe" for Blumlein of keeping all sound sources within the front + or - 45 deg is not negotiable, it is absolutely essential to avoid out of phase image confusion.

We have to follow some rules, but I agree, the musicmaking capture is the most important. :)

[sonare]

I can only report that often choral groups will spill outside the 45 degree window-- and the portion that is in the 90 degrees is what is noticed, not the few degrees that are on the edges.

Not unlike the results of the sound of a room that goes from on to off-axis when using ORTF.

Rich

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by audiothings

about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...

No, this should be 90 degrees or less. See attached picture.