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#31
4th March 2007
Old 4th March 2007
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The "Sound on Sound" article is very detailed. Real "state of the art" gear, with the contending mics being the Sonodore RCM402, Schoeps MK21, and Royer SF12. Grace micamps and Prism Dream A/D.

The Sonodores won, but I have been told by a friend who has compared both that Joesphson C617 with Gefell MK221 capsule is almost indistinguishable.

Rich
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#32
4th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso View Post
Are these cars that I hear in the backround? Like a low rumble?!?
Unfortunately, the hall is right next to the street.. Not a lot of traffic there, but it is audible. Which is a shame, because this could be an ideal location for chamber music recordings otherwise...
#33
13th March 2007
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My first Blumlein...



Thought I'd post this here instead of opening a new thread...
Did some preliminary test-recordings for the upcoming harpsichord duet project. Thought I'd try a Blumlein with my matched pair of C414TL (not TLII) and was pleasantly surprised. The room was less than ideal (with a Kindergarten next to it... ) and I didn't spend a lot of time finding the perfect position, but the result ain't all that bad (see attachment)....

Not easy to bring the mics into position, esp. if you want them to face downward a little bit.

Daniel
Attached Thumbnails
Harpsichord reference recordings?-blumlein3.jpg   Harpsichord reference recordings?-blumlein1.jpg  
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File Type: mp3 cpebach.mp3 (2.44 MB, 420 views)
#34
21st March 2007
Old 21st March 2007
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Any of you guys heard Dr.Andreas Holschneider's recording of Telemann on the Archiv label (419 633-2)? Not solo Harpsichord I know but damn I find that whole recording addictive (in a multiple mic, extreme clarity kind of a way, doesn't harm that the performances and music are exceptional of course)...
#35
21st March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosrite View Post
Any of you guys heard Dr.Andreas Holschneider's recording of Telemann on the Archiv label (419 633-2)?
Yup, I have that, it is indeed a fabulous CD in many ways. Esp. the final movement of the recorder/flute concerto is sheer madness... They (Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel) play it twice as fast as Hogwood... And this recording is about 20 years old now. One of my favourite baroque music CDs.

Daniel
#36
21st March 2007
Old 21st March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post


Thought I'd post this here instead of opening a new thread...
Did some preliminary test-recordings for the upcoming harpsichord duet project. Thought I'd try a Blumlein with my matched pair of C414TL (not TLII) and was pleasantly surprised. [snip]

Daniel

Hi, Daniel.

The sound is great, with exactly the kind of detail I like in harpsichord recordings. Blumlein is a wonderful technique, in the right space, and this recording seems to bear that out. I use a Blumlein pair as the primary stereo track when I record symphony orchestras. The sense of air and place come through brilliantly in your recording. And you say you simply and quickly set it up? Fantastic! Two slight quibbles: the overall volume seems unnaturally loud (although I own many label recordings of exceptionally loud harpsichord). Is this the way it sounded when you recorded, or did you do something in post? My other comment would be that the panning results in, to my ears, too much separation between the instruments. I hear the dreaded "hole-in-the-middle." I would hesitate to suggest pulling the mics back a bit, since the ratio of direct to reflected sound seems so good. How about panning the stereo image more to the center? I've found in my own recordings of orchestras, I almost never pan full left/right in the stereo channel.

Regards,

Lloyd
#37
21st March 2007
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Lloyd,
Quote:
Originally Posted by loranoyd View Post
The sound is great, with exactly the kind of detail I like in harpsichord recordings.
Thanks for the compliment. How do you like the sample I had posted earlier in comparison?
Quote:
Two slight quibbles: the overall volume seems unnaturally loud (although I own many label recordings of exceptionally loud harpsichord). Is this the way it sounded when you recorded, or did you do something in post?
Not really, a slight raise of volume maybe, but it's not even normalized, much less compressed. But you're right in principle, normalizing is something one shouldn't do with harpsichord recordings, they can be a bit softer...

Quote:
My other comment would be that the panning results in, to my ears, too much separation between the instruments. I hear the dreaded "hole-in-the-middle."
Well, there is a hole between the instruments...
I did this purposefully to an extent, because this is more of a demo (for a label), and I wanted the instruments clearly separated.
Quote:
I would hesitate to suggest pulling the mics back a bit, since the ratio of direct to reflected sound seems so good.
I initially just placed the mics where I thought they'd sound good (just by looking, not listening). For a short test, I pulled them back a little and didn't like the change, so I put them back to where they were and left them...

Quote:
How about panning the stereo image more to the center? I've found in my own recordings of orchestras, I almost never pan full left/right in the stereo channel.
I'd never pan stereo pairs... Especially not in the case of AB/ORTF or so, but even with coindident stereo, it isn't really a good idea.

I've not tried Blumlein as a main mic for orchestra, and I'm a bit reluctant to do so, but maybe I will try it one day, starting perhaps with a chamber orchestra or so.

Daniel
#38
21st March 2007
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Instead of panning, one should rather adjust the angle between XY mics if one incounters an unwanted hole in the middle. Smaller angle = less hole in the middle. This will keep the reverb fully spread.
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#39
21st March 2007
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Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".
#40
21st March 2007
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Quote:
Yup, I have that, it is indeed a fabulous CD in many ways. Esp. the final movement of the recorder/flute concerto is sheer madness... They (Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel) play it twice as fast as Hogwood... And this recording is about 20 years old now. One of my favourite baroque music CDs.
I'm glad that you also like it. I have an audiophile friend who now uses it all the time when checking new bits of stupidly priced gear.

I do love the recording and was wondering if you happened to have any idea how it was recorded? I don't think I'm hearing Schoeps with this, perhaps Neumann? It's definitely studio I think and with multiple stereo pairs.

My only quibble with the recording technique is the ghosting of the flute (especially on the first movement). I have now gotten used to it, however, and kind of like it!

Quote:
Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".
Excactly. One of the advantages of using a coincident array is that there will be no 'hole in the middle.'
#41
21st March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosrite View Post
I do love the recording and was wondering if you happened to have any idea how it was recorded?
I have no idea whatsoever...

Quote:
My only quibble with the recording technique is the ghosting of the flute (especially on the first movement).
Never noticed that, I must admit... Which piece are you referring to?
#42
22nd March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Its impossible to get a "hole in the middle" with the Blumlein technique. As Danial says, if there are no instruments there, then no phantom images will appear in the stereo image in that position, but that is not a "hole in the middle".

I suppose I mis-spoke before. What I was trying to convey is that, to me, the recording exaggerates the space between the two instruments in a way that sounds unnatural. Now, admittedly, I was listening under less-than-ideal headphones (ear buds, actually), and doubtless that contributes to the overly pronounced hard right/hard left sound. From the audience's perspective, I can imagine a more blended sound, and that would be the sound I would picture in my mind's ear (so to speak) if I were to attempt such a recording. Different objectives, I suppose, produce different results. What did the two performers think?

Regards,

Lloyd
#43
26th March 2007
Old 26th March 2007
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Oh how this thread hits home....

I work for the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. I get to wear a nice variety of sound hats here but everything is 18th century. I certainly have learned a few things about harpsichords. Perspective is everything with these little fiends. A listener 8 feet away doesn't get the richness and warmth the performer does. This, I guess, is the reason why most harpsichord recording sound so thin and wimpy. One of our more recent CD's 'Keys of the Palace' (I like pun's what can I say?) was an experiment in what we believe to be actual 18th C temperaments. available at http://www.williamsburgmarketplace.c...tgroupId=14131 If any of of you give it a listen, please let me know your thoughts on the sound.
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#44
26th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundeziner View Post
If any of of you give it a listen, please let me know your thoughts on the sound.
How was this recorded? I must admit I don't particularly like the sound, esp. with (good) headphones. A bit too distant, a bit thin, a bit too much in the center (could be XY or MS)...
I also don't really like the sound of this particular instrument, but that's a different matter.

What kind of tuning is this?
#45
27th March 2007
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daniel

about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...
#46
27th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiothings View Post
daniel

about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...
In my experience with the SF12, the need for presence trumps the "rules"-- we are recording musicmaking, not following a recipe.

Rich
#47
27th March 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonare View Post
In my experience with the SF12, the need for presence trumps the "rules"-- we are recording musicmaking, not following a recipe.

Rich
But the "recipe" for Blumlein of keeping all sound sources within the front + or - 45 deg is not negotiable, it is absolutely essential to avoid out of phase image confusion.

We have to follow some rules, but I agree, the musicmaking capture is the most important.
#48
28th March 2007
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I can only report that often choral groups will spill outside the 45 degree window-- and the portion that is in the 90 degrees is what is noticed, not the few degrees that are on the edges.

Not unlike the results of the sound of a room that goes from on to off-axis when using ORTF.

Rich
#49
3rd April 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiothings View Post
about the blumlein recording (have not been able to listen yet)... are the two harpsichords within the forward facing quadrant i.e. within +/- 45 degrees from the center of the pair? it sure looks on the pic as if the instruments are occupying at least 120 degrees...
No, this should be 90 degrees or less. See attached picture.
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Harpsichord reference recordings?-blumlein4.jpg  
#50
7th November 2010
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Diggin' up an old thread here. Not that it were my intention to claim I made "reference recordings", but the following short samples are maybe another step towards my personal reference. Same hall as the one in the sample posted earlier in this thread. This time, the setup consist of two generations of Sennheiser cardioids. Two MKH 40 as mains, and two old MKH 406 as spots. The 406 is a really nice mic...
Attached Thumbnails
Harpsichord reference recordings?-harps.jpg  
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File Type: mp3 h1.mp3 (1,012.9 KB, 77 views)
File Type: mp3 h2.mp3 (682.1 KB, 67 views)
#51
7th November 2010
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Great harpsichords sound Daniel.
I like the richness of the harmonics in the first sample.
In the second one I am a little disturbed by some rumble sounds with the keyboard of the instrument ?

JMM
#52
7th November 2010
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True, there is some rumble... Might be just the floor and the mics, not sure... Should be fairly easy to filter out, though.
It's there on the main mic, too, seems to be the instrument itself.
[EDIT] I re-uploaded a slightly filtered version of the second sample.
#53
7th November 2010
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Both samples are very nice, Daniel. Nice room sound and instrument sound. H1 does sound "warmer" but is that because of the tempo and register? They are both excellent. Erste Klasse.
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#54
8th November 2010
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Nice. There's probably even greater variations in harpsichord recordings than piano recordings due to the very great differences in instruments at the outset. In general though I'm with DS in liking harpsichords with balls, and ideally not too much reverb. The concept of the harpsichord as a "mighty instrument" possibly offends purists but that's how it can be for me, with appropriate repertoire (eg last movement of Bach's Italian Concerto in F major).

[Heh, this thread cost me... the Karl Richter version of the Italian Concerto appears on his boxed set retrospective, and as I only had that particular work on cassette and it's my favourite "heavy harpsichord" recording, I've just bought the whole collecction on Amazon. And while I was there, I clicked on a few other things... ouch!)
#55
8th November 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozpeter View Post
In general though I'm with DS in liking harpsichords with balls, and ideally not too much reverb.
Odd how we Australian's like a little "hair" on our Harpsichords. Something in the water perhaps?? Best results I've had recording harpsichord was with a mildly spaced stereo pair and a ribbon a few feet away (as a spot mic) in the new auditorium at Sydney Conservatorium.

On another note, Can anyone recommend a good recording of J.J. Froberger's Harsichord Suites? Is Eggar's collection of Froberger's klavier and organ work actually complete? Like one of the early posters, I had a wonderful 70's recording on cassette of Harpsichord Suites by Froberger that I can't locate.

Regards RAy
#56
8th November 2010
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Daniel, did you time align the two pairs ?

JMM
#57
8th November 2010
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Yes, slightly.
#58
9th November 2010
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Greatly well done
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