Recording classical guitar - any tips ?

[Recording David]

I have a fair bit of experience with classical guitar. I have had lots of success using a Schoeps MK5 pair in ORTF, usually about 1-1.5m back from the guitar and 10-15cm higher than the soundhole. I've recently been using an MS pair of Schoeps (MK8 and MK5 in omni) and that has blown me away - same kind of distance as the ORTF pair.

I think with classical guitar you record it slightly closer than other classical instruments as it has a little less projection so location can be less important sometimes. Have a listen to the recordings here: http://mamonline.co.uk/ (click on the Gary Ryan link, and the sound files are about half way down the next page) - I recorded these with the Schoeps ORTF pair in a not great room with a little help from Altiverb.

The session was a nightmare - we had booked a church but it was so windy that the tiles were blowing off the roof, so we relocated to a school!

[ISedlacek]

Thanks, David. I am always a bit perplexed with ORTF - sitting in front of the microphones, while both microphones are directed totally apart from the instrument. I feel a bit uneasy. I tend to use AB all the time ... But maybe I shall try ORTF to hear the difference ?

[Recording David]

For what it's worth I have a John Williams CD called 'El Diablo Suelto', recorded by Mike Stavrou. This was recorded using a very ordinary MS pair (C-414 in fig. 8 and KM-83 omni) but the sound is unreal - an amazing sense of space and great stereo imaging. MS is fantastic for accurate imaging and I think this is especially important with something like solo guitar, where the recording can easily be very narrow (as there's only one instrument).

It was this recording that switched me on to MS - I'm completely converted. I use the Schoeps MS pair with a Peter Engh Sonic Orbit decoder (www.peterengh.com) with great results. The first time I tried it out the imaging was so good I nearly laughed.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I am always a bit perplexed with ORTF - sitting in front of the microphones, while both microphones are directed totally apart from the instrument. I feel a bit uneasy.

You will need mics with a good off-axis response, especially when recording at a relatively small distance, with the direct sound from the instrument hitting the mics off-axis. This is a theoretical drawback of ORTF, no doubt. Whether or not it will be a real-world problem depends on the microphones...

Maybe textbook ORTF will have too much separation for the purpose. You could try different varations, there is no need to stick to a prescription here. Try the mics a bit further apart and facing a bit more towards the instrument, maybe.
In a good sounding room, I'd probably experiment with a main pair / room mic (AB) and one or two carefully applied spots.

Daniel

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

You will need mics with a good off-axis response, especially when recording at a relatively small distance, with the direct sound from the instrument hitting the mics off-axis. This is a theoretical drawback of ORTF, no doubt. Whether or not it will be a real-world problem depends on the microphones...

Maybe textbook ORTF will have too much separation for the purpose. You could try different varations, there is no need to stick to a prescription here. Try the mics a bit further apart and facing a bit more towards the instrument, maybe.
In a good sounding room, I'd probably experiment with a main pair / room mic (AB) and one or two carefully applied spots.

Daniel

Thanks, Daniel. I think MK21 could serve best for this ORTF experiment, or maybe MK4V too ... Main AB plus 1 - 2 spots could be also interesting. I will record some short samples.

As for MS is concerned, I have no figure 8 ... oh wait - I have Horch Maybe also worth to try ...

[Jim vanBergen]

Nice thread-

I've only found that whatever worked best for one musician and instrument never was ideal for a different guitar or player. So many factors- Single mic, double mic, instrument, type of string, playing method (struck, pluck, strum) before we even talk about ROOM sound-

One thing is sure for my guitar recordings: OPTIONS! I bring several microphone options and several mounting options, and I try to get a great rehearsal done early that can be checked by myself AND the player.

Secondary, but helpful: I always make sure I have a rug available to reduce contact noise (for the player, stand chair, as well as the mic) and to inhibit early reflections.

[stenerlov]

Hi David!

I record acoustic guitar M/S with a Gefell UM70 as figure 8 and a BeyerDynamic MC-930 as center. I simply swith the phase of one channel in Cubase afterwards.

Is there a point to get the Peter Engh MS decoder? Sonic Orbit.
It retails 388 USD....


Will it make a real improvment? Where can I buy it online?

Best Regards and a Happy New Year to you all!

Carl-Johan, Sweden

[Recording David]

Hi Carl - the reason I use the Sonic Orbit is that I'm recording to a hard disk recorder on remote jobs rather than a computer so I go in direct to stereo - obviously the Sonic Orbit lets me monitor exactly there and then. Also my mixer doesn't have phase reversal on it so I can't set up a duplicate S channel like that. Also for classical/acoustic material where I'm just using a stereo pair I keep the signal path as short as possible - mics-BG2 preamp-Sonic Orbit-Mytek ADC-recorder.

I have been really pleased with this unit - it is solid, transparent and gives a great stereo image. I've never used a software MS decoder before so I don't know if it's any better or worse. I have found that using this MS setup makes mic placement so much easier somehow than other stereo arrays.

You can buy one direct at www.peterengh.com - just contact Peter through the site, that's how I did it.

Happy new year to you, too!

[stenerlov]

Thanks David!

Great to hear from another proud user of the fantastic BG preamp I have the BG-1 and love it.

Does anybode else know if a "hardware" ms decoder makes a significant difference to just duplicate the S channel and flip the phase in Cubase or other DAW environment? Would really like to know.

Best,
Carl-Johan

[ISedlacek]

Oh, are you recording guitar on DAV ? What a coincidence

[Musiclab]

I recently finished a classical guitar recording, I used a spaced pair with KM184's into an ADL 600. I wasn't concerned with being a purist so I touched it with a manley elop and the little labs IBP. Obviously the guitarist is the #1 factor to a succesuful recording. Proximity is also critical. We did these recordings in my studio rather than in a hall It's a pretty intimate sounding recording although I did use some reverb.

[tenor39]

A pair of AB omnis works pretty well in a good acoustic. Put them above the player about 6 feet back. For an example go to my webpage and listen to the "Handel fugue for 2 guitars". It's on the "Recording Sampler" page.

[fifthcircle]

For solo classical guitar, I'm a fan of a pair of omnis. Which ones I use really depends on the player and the room. My "go to" is a pair of Schoeps MK2's through an A Designs Pacifica. The spacing of the pair is about 18 inches and the placement is about 2 feet high and about 4-6 feet out. I don't own them, but I would imagine that a pair of MK21's would also sound pretty fantastic.

Other combinations that I use regularly include 4006's with a Boulder Twin Servo preamp. For a more reverberant room, I'll place a pair of APE Spheres on the DPAs to give me that little bit more "dig" in the sound.

For ensemble work, I'll usually go to a more directional mic- either a Schoeps MK4 through Vac Rac or Pacifica preamps or Beyer M160's through Millennia preamps.

All are different sounds and can work beautifully given a particular set of circumstances.

--Ben

[Zokuhei]

Hi,

I pretty much just returned from a classical guitar recording with mostly Bach violin sonata transcriptions that I think sounded great in the end after a fair bit of experiments. Of course the room was a great sounding modern church that was sold and then turned into a pretty nice concert hall.

I used a pair of MK5 omni in small AB spaced about 35 cm about 1,50 m high looking down on the guitar from the right.
I also used my usual MK2s room pair about 2,5 m apart, spaced about 2,5 m and 2 m high and an additional very close mic for which I finally chose (surprise!) an oktava MK219 because of it's fairly high dampening frequency response to pick up present bass from the instrument without taking up too much hard picking sound.

It came out great, but I think, you should part with room mics as you have no church or other wide space. So your room could be the good old 480.

The recording up to now is just a rough cut and mix yet but perhaps, afer talking to the client, I could post some extracts if somebody is interested.

Greets
Tim Tautorat

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Zokuhei

Hi,


I used a pair of MK5 omni in small AB spaced about 35 cm about 1,50 m high looking down on the guitar from the right.

Do you mean the mics facing from the side (not from the front) ? Like the axis connecting the mics being perpendicular to the mody of guitar ?

Did you use ALL those mics together ?

[Zokuhei]

Sorry for not describing clear enough...

No, of course not completely from the side...just slightly "off axis" to the right, from an audience view.
And yes, I used the MK5 as my main pair, for now the room at about -20 dB and the close oktava at about -15 dB.

I'll perhaps try to post a picture.

Greets Tim

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Zokuhei

I'll perhaps try to post a picture.

Greets Tim

What about a sound sample ?

[Zokuhei]

I'll ask the client tomorrow...hope, that I can get some sample for you...

Greets
Tim

[Zokuhei]

At first two small pictures. Sorry about the size and the quality, but as you can guess I just got my mobile phone for "documentation".

On the first one you can see the room, some bits of the room mics and the whole set up, the second one is a shot that shows the main pair and the close mic.

I hope I'll find the time to post a short sound sample this afternoon.

Tim Tautorat

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Zokuhei

At first two small pictures. Sorry about the size and the quality, but as you can guess I just got my mobile phone for "documentation".

On the first one you can see the room, some bits of the room mics and the whole set up, the second one is a shot that shows the main pair and the close mic.

I hope I'll find the time to post a short sound sample this afternoon.

Tim Tautorat

Very nice ... looks like a bit bigger than my studio ... There I tend towards more intimate sound somehow ...

[Zokuhei]

Here, there is finally a short sample...pretty large but I hope this is no problem.

http://www.planungsgruppe-elektrotechnik.de/Bach1Pt.WAV

It's the beginning of the first movement of Bach's 1st violin solo sonata as a transcription for guitar. Sorry, it's only a few days old and it's therefor only a nearly unmixed, roughcut version. No time at the moment...

You see there is also the oppertunity of intimate sound in a big room.

Tim Tautorat

[Douglas Whates]

My only tip would be to consider using ribbon mic's - to my ears, they result in the most faithful representation of how the guitar sounds in reality. I find that *any* SDC I use has given me unnatural and exagerated nail noise. I hear this exagerated sound on every recording I've heard that uses SDC as the main pair, not just my own.

Douglas.

[Andrew B.]

I know it's a cheap mic - but Bruce Swedien favours the Rode NT-4 stereo mic on acoustic/classical guitar (see post #16 with picture on this thread):
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...highlight=rode

I have used one with a DAV BG-1 preamp for miking a small choir and the results were surprisingly good.

Andrew

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Zokuhei

Here, there is finally a short sample...pretty large but I hope this is no problem.

http://www.planungsgruppe-elektrotechnik.de/Bach1Pt.WAV

It's the beginning of the first movement of Bach's 1st violin solo sonata as a transcription for guitar. Sorry, it's only a few days old and it's therefor only a nearly unmixed, roughcut version. No time at the moment...

You see there is also the oppertunity of intimate sound in a big room.

Tim Tautorat

Nice clean recording, though it highlight a few of my pet hates - unnatural nail noise and a conflicting mix of direct and distant sound. It almost sounds like I can hear two distinct acoustics, rather than one homogenous sound. I'd be curious to hear the room mic's solod - they'd probably be more to my tastes if spaced together a little closer.

[ISedlacek]

Yesterday very great classical guitar player visited me (http://www.stepanrak.cz/oldweb/english/) . We jammed a lot and while he was about to leave I got an idea to record some sample. Since it was not much time, without any tweaking I straight put a pair of Schoeps MK4V before him and connected to Pendulum. Here is the result. If we make some real recording next time (as we plan to), my idea is to put the microphones further away from him (now it was about 75 cm) and to use either MK21 or MK2 (I felt the guitar needs more space and to be less focused). Also not sure about Pendulum as an ideal preamp for that. What do you think ?
The sample is about 2,5 minutes 16/44 wav and has about 20 MB (I don´t like mp3s). I added a bit of reverb to taste ...It sounds better than on his CD made some time ago, but still I am not really happy with it ... The guitar (made by Greg Smallman BTW) sounded much more full and rich in reality.

I just listened to my classical guitar samples done with AEA R88 as compared to Schoeps and I felt R88 sounded more sweet, mellow and rich than Schoeps which sounded a bit thin and hard ... Thinking of calling that huge R88 baby back .... But, not really sure - would anyone have a courage to use this mic for a serious classical guitar recording of a great master ?

classical guitar played by Stepan Rak - 2 minutes excerpt

for those with slow connection, here is the mp3 version of the same

mp3

[Recording David]

He plays a wonderful sounding guitar - wow. I actually like the sound of those mics but I think in this example they are too close so there is quite a bit of nail noise.

This is a really quiet recording - have you done something to remove noise or was the location just very quiet?

BTW I like the reverb - what is it?

I have a classical guitar date next week here: http://131.111.214.230/admissions/images/choir_000.jpg

I'll probably use a Schoeps MS pair - I'll post some samples if the guitarist is happy about it.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Recording David

He plays a wonderful sounding guitar - wow. I actually like the sound of those mics but I think in this example they are too close so there is quite a bit of nail noise.

This is a really quiet recording - have you done something to remove noise or was the location just very quiet?

BTW I like the reverb - what is it?

I have a classical guitar date next week here: http://131.111.214.230/admissions/images/choir_000.jpg

I'll probably use a Schoeps MS pair - I'll post some samples if the guitarist is happy about it.

Yes, yes, the mics were TOO close (about 70 cm ?) and there were MK4V with focused sound and slight lift on HF. MK21 or omni would be probably better ? No denoising, just my quiet studio room.

The hall is PCM-91 , I think it was Deep Blue preset in this case ...

Oh yes, recording in a church is a different story ... The sound is so easy ... But has some disadvantages too ... carrying the things, cold, noise, discomfort (comparing to cosy studio conditions) etc.

So you prefer MS to AB ?

[Recording David]

I'm a recent convert to MS and I think I do prefer it to AB. It has really excellent stereo imaging but for me it also makes the mics MUCH easier to place and get a great sound. It certainly avoids some of the problems omnis present and it lets you control the ratio of direct sound to ambience very easily.

[TheReal7]

Would I get good result using the MS technique with the following mics?

Here is what I own"
Royer 121
C414 (matched pair)
SM57

Pres:
Germaniums x2

And how would I set up the mics if I used the Royer?