PA for Live Performances?

DarkEcho · 29th December 2006, 10:36 PM

I couldn't find a place that matched this so I will just ask here..

I am trying to do some research on a PA system that the vocalist of my band and myself (keyboardist) will share... its symphonic metal music, and so I wanted to have the keyboards go through the PA along with the vocals but be panned wide so as to get the big/epic feel of surrounding synths..

instead of just a keyboard amp pointing wherever....

anyone have any suggestions as to a PA system that i might get started reviewing? I was thinking somewhere around 300-400 per speaker... but i dont know how much the amplifiers would be/ if the speakers can be active and still sound good.. so I dont know, I imagine having onboard mixing would be useful to help with the panning of the keys but if it costs too much/ means the PA will be less quality then I wont bother.

Thank you all in advance!!!!!!!!

DarkEcho · 30th December 2006, 08:21 AM

can anyone just point me in the direction of a few good companies who make PAs? or even the most important specs to look for in a PA...

we play moderately sized local shows with the biggest being about 200 people. So this isnt super professional or anything, but I am a little lost on where to even begin researching..

Samc · 30th December 2006, 03:01 PM

Could you give some more details of your set-up and budget? That would be most helpful.

How many outputs do you have?
Will you also need monitors?
What P.A. equipment do you already have?....a small mixer?...anything?

If you give this info I can try to help you.

alcohol · 30th December 2006, 03:34 PM

Check out Craigslist in your area. There's used PA equipment all the time. I suggest getting a pair of PA speakers with 15' speakers and horns.

Speake brands to think about are:

Yamaha
Mackie (self powered)
JBL

and others

A small board. (Not a Berhinger)

An appropriate power amp. At least 400 watts per side. (Crown, Crest, Peavey)

A second power amp and some floor monitors for stage monitoring.

Buying used should save you at least 40% off retail costs.

edyer · 30th December 2006, 04:00 PM

Lots of power even if you won't use it. A couple of subs to make it sound nice and full. A couple of good vocal/stage monitors. Try those out with your mics to make sure they aren't feedback machines. The powered mackies work pretty well for monitors and can be used for mains/sidefills in the future if you need them. I have a mackie 1642 for a PA console, it's OK but if I could do it again I would go with a small digital mixer that has automation. If you have your show set up you can add a lot of extra stuff from a sequencer and have the sound really dialed in. You won't need to rely on a sound guy all the time to remember when to add effects etc.
For your mains you need to figure out if you want them to project a narrow cone of sound or a wider one. Can you add more of them? Will they work in a small array if you need to put more of them up? And most importantly can they fit in the van?

Don't buy any of the cheap JBLS or really any of the entry level stuff. You will end up selling it and wishing you had spent the money right the first time (been there, done it, got the T-shirt).
I also am a believer that you should have a good voltage regulating power conditioner for your PA gear. Joes bar does not have the right wiring for your high draw amps and you can do some damage if you're not careful. (see T-shirt disclaimer above)

hope tha helps.

alcohol · 30th December 2006, 04:40 PM

I'm not sure about the validity of the article, and I can't find it online; but, I remember reading a very technical article where the author argued that in most cases you should run your PA in mono and not stereo. The reason he gave was that stero signals were prone to comb filtering. That past 15 or 20 feet, deleterious comb filtering occurred seriously degrading the quality of sound experienced at various points. Also, only within the first 20 feet or so, does anyone experience stereo.

edyer · 30th December 2006, 04:53 PM

I would think you would have comb filtering even in mono.
At some point the sound from either main is going to overlap the other.
Yamaha has a good book on sound reinforcement out. Good reading if it doesn't bore you to death.

DarkEcho · 30th December 2006, 07:27 PM

Wow thank you all for the information!! you have brightened my path.

firstly my budget is probably no more than 800 bucks total definately not over 1000. This is a small local band and while we seem to have a decent fan base here, we havent made any money off of our shows or anything haha

so maybe i should just state my goal since I dont seem to have found the right answer...

When I mixed our demo, I panned the keyboards 100% left and right, and I like the feeling of the wide surrounding synths, because I often play "epic" sounding horn parts and it seems to sound the most badass that way.

so i want to be able to recreate this effect. i dont need all the fancy bells and whistles with effects and stuff. but if the stereo idea wont work in a small venue, then i would do stereo but I would still like to upgrade the PA even if i end up just going mono.

theom · 30th December 2006, 07:30 PM

Here is a better forum for live pa stuff,

Lots of good info here:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/5/0/

Off the top of my head it seems like you budget would buy you a couple jbl eons and 1 or 2 subs.Used.

If you are not giging too much you may be better off calling your local sound company and renting.

Samc · 30th December 2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

...firstly my budget is probably no more than 800 bucks total definately not over 1000......

Your budget is really small, what are you needs?

Do you just need a set of speakers and amplifiers? Nobody can give you an educated response unless they know your needs.

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to have a stereo system.....even in a small club.

30th December 2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samc

Your budget is really small, what are you needs?

Do you just need a set of speakers and amplifiers? Nobody can give you an educated response unless they know your needs.

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to have a stereo system.....even in a small club.

Hi,

Sam is right you need to define the project first:

- What is the size of the venue included audience area size?
- Is it an acoustic session with sound reinforcement of weakest sources or there is a need for full amplified FOH mix?
- What is the stage setup of the band including instruments list being used?

Best is to go to a local sound company and rent some equipment, best with a sound technician prepared to give you a lot of guidance; if you are not experienced with PA setup.

Buying anything without proper experience will be probably a waiste of money.

Get a taste of professional equipment first, by renting.

Regards,
Laurent

Samc · 30th December 2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Fidelity

....Best is to go to a local sound company and rent some equipment, best with a sound technician prepared to give you a lot of guidance; if you are not experienced with PA setup.....

Going with a local sound company is good advise for many reasons, especially since I get the feeling that you don't really know what you need.

They can help you to figure out exactly what PA set-up will best fit your situation. You will be able to see and use the equipment in a concert before buying, or you might even decide that buying the equipment is not the best thing to do now, but to rent as needed instead.

DarkEcho · 31st December 2006, 02:18 AM

Yes renting sounds like a good plan...

the venue sizez change, but its usually anywhere from 100-300 people I would say...

it is a symphonic metal band, we have a bassist, two guitarists, drummer, vocalist, and me, the keyboardist. usually on a little stage about 1-2 feet off the floor..

firstly, does my idea sound logical? I curently have a single amplifier which obviously cannot produce the stereo effect... I thought that since our vocalist is in need of a new PA anyways, if we both pitched in and bought one, I could put the keys through it as well as his vocals but pan the keys left and right and the vocals down the center. then setup the PA like usual and would get the stereo wide synth effect.

would that work or not? that is the first question...

thanks to everyone so far.

pianodano · 31st December 2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Wow thank you all for the information!! you have brightened my path.

firstly my budget is probably no more than 800 bucks total definately not over 1000. This is a small local band and while we seem to have a decent fan base here, we havent made any money off of our shows or anything haha

so maybe i should just state my goal since I dont seem to have found the right answer...

When I mixed our demo, I panned the keyboards 100% left and right, and I like the feeling of the wide surrounding synths, because I often play "epic" sounding horn parts and it seems to sound the most badass that way.

so i want to be able to recreate this effect. i dont need all the fancy bells and whistles with effects and stuff. but if the stereo idea wont work in a small venue, then i would do stereo but I would still like to upgrade the PA even if i end up just going mono.

I have this. I have had it for 2 1/2 years. We use it in stereo for keyboards, vocals with TC Helicon, canned drums, bass and guitar. Get some kind of small mixer. Check the B52 system out at Guitar Center. http://www.b-52pro.com/models/Matrix1000V2.html

Danny

DarkEcho · 31st December 2006, 02:37 AM

wait, you use this B52 thing for the entire band??? what kind of music do you play?

pianodano · 31st December 2006, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

wait, you use this B52 thing for the entire band??? what kind of music do you play?

Old rock and country. I never said an entire band. The hell with working for nothing. I am a keyboardist that works with a guitar player. Drums and bass are sequenced as are horns and any other part I can't get my hands on at the moment they should be played. The b52 kicks butt. I use for my main instruments a Yamaha Tyros, a Muse Receptor and a Yamaha P120 piano.

Danny

edyer · 31st December 2006, 03:01 AM

Man I don't want to crap on your parade but if you get that B52 setup for a symphonic metal band you will end up selling it and taking a loss. Its probably a nice rig but too small for your needs.
If you are going to reproduce metal in a live environment you need to have a few things. You need to creat sound pressure not just sound for that kind of music in order for it to get the full effect. The difference betweeen a SO SO PA and a Good setup makes the band play better and gets the audience involved.
You want something that can get the vocals up over the drums and guitars and also reproduce a kik drum. Couple that with reproducing loud synth notes and you will be wishing you had more power and speakers. And if you are going to put stereo synths through it you will likely figure out that stereo guitar effects and stereo vocal effects work pretty well also. Plan to build around what you buy, and not replace what you buy it will pay off in the long run.
Renting is a good option though you may be looking at a few hundred bucks per night. Some of the rental outfits are pretty expensive.
You may be better off doing a lease to own type deal if you will be getting regular gigs. For a few hundred bucks a month you could get set up pretty well.

theom · 2nd January 2007, 05:33 AM

RENT,
figure it into the cost of the show, If you are getting paid, try to pass it on to the promoter/venue.

Even if your band is great, with a crap PA you will not be representing the band well.
Better not to play than give people a bad sounding show.

ssaudio · 2nd January 2007, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

but its usually anywhere from 100-300 people I would say...

If you want a clean, unforced sound with a reasonable headroom in venues of this size you really need to allow a minimum of 20 watts per audience head - twice as much for subs (if you want them)

Yes, you can get away with much less, but is getting away with it what you really want to do?

Trust me, buying PA is no different a bottomless money pit than studio gear - either you buy a wee integrated system and stick with it or you hold your breath and take the plunge

Hire first, maybe do a couple of dozen gigs that way and see how it goes, it's the best way to learn about a specialised aspect of audio

Dave Peck · 2nd January 2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

can anyone just point me in the direction of a few good companies who make PAs? ..

IMO, the best bang for the buck in club PA gear/keyboard SR gear is http://www.carvin.com/

If you need a whole system (power amp, mixer and speakers) I think you may need to spend a bit more than a grand. You may want to look at some packaged systems like these:

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...0-1503&CID=LSS

http://www.carvin.com/products/singl...0-2153&CID=LSS

I used a pair of their 3-way boxes + two subs for a big backline keyboard system (about 1600 watts) when I was gigging in the L.A. rock clubs years ago. Not the same thing as using it as a main club PA (those clubs had very large house systems so this was just for on-stage sound), but the Carvin stuff was well built, never had a problem, and sounded better than anything else in the price range.

DP

4stringerfinger · 2nd January 2007, 06:18 AM

Used gear.

Manufacturers: Peavey, Crown, Eminence, EV, Carvin, QSC, Soundcraft, etc.

Check Pawnshops, Ebay, Craigslist, backpage, but most importantly be patient. Its unlikely you'll find it all in one place.

Where are you at? There may be some guys on here willing to part with their old stuff.

DarkEcho · 2nd January 2007, 07:02 PM

Yes I am agreeing with what I am hearing here, not to go cheap and be dissapointed.. Now all i need to do is a little thinking about how much money I want to invest in this band, how I will go about ownership of the PA if the band disbands in the future, and then finally if I should buy anything at all..

I would love to have a high watt setup that could be the sound for the keys, vocals, and the kick, hell, do you think I could go DI with the bassguitar into a high quality system?

that would have the keys and vocals using primarily the speakers, and then the kick and bass guitar using mostly the subwoofer(s)

the reason I ask is because the more people using the system, the more ways I will be able to split the cost...

I am in fresno california, btw

Samc · 2nd January 2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

.....Now all i need to do is a little thinking about how much money I want to invest in this band, how I will go about ownership of the PA if the band disbands in the future, and then finally if I should buy anything at all..

No, no, no.

It doesn't matter what level you're aiming for....The very first thing you need to figure out is what you really need!. This should then be the base to figure out everything else. How can you fix a budget when you don't know the details of the system you will need?

Try to figure out the absolute best system for your needs, and then work backwards from there.

Most rental houses will also have used gear for sale from time to time, plus they will have different brands and price/performance ranges of equipment you can test......more good reasons for going the rental route first.

Jim vanBergen · 2nd January 2007, 10:15 PM

Where are you located? Maybe we can put you in touch with a decent live sound guy/PA provider who can help you out, perhaps suggestions for your small PA, and rental if you need larger. This is a VERY difficult thing for people to suggest AND HAVE WORK PROPERLY! You need an engineer on your side...be it for garage/bar/club work even though the same laws of physics apply for 30 people and 30,000.

There is a LOT of crap out there. Stay away from Behringer. See if you can afford to find one of the local $300/night for PA & engineer guys....unless that is over your budget.

I personally really dislike the Mackie, JBL EON, and Yamaha self-powered line...but I'm used to working with a million dollar PA nightly, and if you have 1k to spend, they are pretty good options. Can you describe the band, total number of inputs?

Hope this helps!

Jim

DarkEcho · 2nd January 2007, 10:54 PM

ok well what about my last question, can the bass guitar go through he PA along with the kick/keys/ and vocals?

like I said i think the showsare small to medium sized, 100-200 people usually.

so that said, how many watts would I most likely need?

2 guitarists, 1 bassist, 1 drummer, 1 vocalist, and 1 keyboardist

the guitars usually just use their amps, sometimes the venue mics them

if the kick/bass/vocals/and keys could all go through the PA then my budget restraints might lift a bit.

Dave Peck · 2nd January 2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Yes I am agreeing with what I am hearing here, not to go cheap and be dissapointed.. Now all i need to do is a little thinking about how much money I want to invest in this band, how I will go about ownership of the PA if the band disbands in the future, and then finally if I should buy anything at all..

I would love to have a high watt setup that could be the sound for the keys, vocals, and the kick, hell, do you think I could go DI with the bassguitar into a high quality system?

that would have the keys and vocals using primarily the speakers, and then the kick and bass guitar using mostly the subwoofer(s)

the reason I ask is because the more people using the system, the more ways I will be able to split the cost...

I am in fresno california, btw

The more I think about your posts the more confused I am about what you are trying to do. When you are gigging, doesn't the club already have a house PA? If so, you only need gear for rehearsal or ON-STAGE purposes.

Typically, each member of the band is responsible for their own sound system for rehearsals and for on-stage use (called "back line"). Guitarist buys a guitar amp, bass player buys a bass amp, drummer just buys drums, keyboardist buys his on-stage sound system (needs to be big enough to keep up with the other instruments for rehearsal purposes) and the singer buys a small sound system consisting of either a monitor system with a few floor wedges or a small stereo PA that gets pointed at the band like side fills during rehearsals. In your case, you could use this same rehearsal PA system for both vocals and keyboards, but you probably still only need a system that is intended for rehearsal purposes, not a large main PA that you send all of the instruments into.

If you are playing gigs at venues that don't have a house PA system, you can either use your rehearsal gear as your back line gear and rent a large PA system for the main PA (probably your best option) or take the plunge and buy a large main PA system yourself (not a practical option unless you are doing a LOT of larger gigs in venues that don't have a house sound system).

DP

DarkEcho · 2nd January 2007, 11:18 PM

ok here is the deal,

everyone in the band has their back line equiptment, every one has their reheasal sound systems...

most of the places we play at have some sort of sound system and we dont ever need to rent larger equiptment.

my original reason to ask was because I wanted to have wide-panned keyboards during performances and I cant accomplish that with my single amplifier.

so I was wanting suggestions for equiptment so that the Vocalist and I could purchase a PA that has two speakers that I could mix my keyboards with and pan wide for shows.

the ability to pan the keyboards hard L/R during a show with equiptment that can keep up with the normal volumes of a metal band in a small to medium sized venue.

are most venues able to mix the instruments around? like, could I ask for two inputs to the house PA system and have them pann those each hard left and right?

the other thing was that the vocalist needs a better PA system anyways for rehearsal. So I wanted to combine both of these needs into a single purchase. Something that could be used for rehearsal as well as in a performance for the wide-symphonic effect.

Jim vanBergen · 2nd January 2007, 11:34 PM

OK, thanks for taking the time to fully explain what you're trying to do.

Most house PA's can take a stereo signal and pan it. All you do it say to the house sound guy, I have wide stereo patches, please hard pan my L/R mix in the house. You can buy a 2 channel DI if you like, so that they only need to take an XLR from you, and then you shouldn't experience a small club guy saying "Sorry, I only have 2 DI boxes and I need one for Bass!" and then you will insure you have a matched pair. Just a thought.

For yourself and the singer, you could probably get away with a pair of Mackie/JBL EON/Yamaha self-powered speakers on sticks. We really tend NOT to look at sound systems in watts since the 1970's because we tend to instead look at the efficiency of the speaker combined with a specific amplifier. Efficiency is a combination of the amplifier's output voltage and the impedance of the driver(remember E=I/R) and is measured in db at 1W/m, for example, speaker X provides 92dB A weighted at one Watt per meter.

So. Having said all THAT, you could get one of several systems, but you need a way to MIX vocals and keyboards, have pan and volume controls for each input (which is going to be a stereo key send (hard panned L/R) and a vocal input (mono); and drive a pair of speakers when you are playing somewere that does not have a decent sound system. Does this sound right?

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29th December 2006, 10:36 PM	#1
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	PA for Live Performances? I couldn't find a place that matched this so I will just ask here.. I am trying to do some research on a PA system that the vocalist of my band and myself (keyboardist) will share... its symphonic metal music, and so I wanted to have the keyboards go through the PA along with the vocals but be panned wide so as to get the big/epic feel of surrounding synths.. instead of just a keyboard amp pointing wherever.... anyone have any suggestions as to a PA system that i might get started reviewing? I was thinking somewhere around 300-400 per speaker... but i dont know how much the amplifiers would be/ if the speakers can be active and still sound good.. so I dont know, I imagine having onboard mixing would be useful to help with the panning of the keys but if it costs too much/ means the PA will be less quality then I wont bother. Thank you all in advance!!!!!!!!

30th December 2006, 03:01 PM	#3
Samc Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 336	Could you give some more details of your set-up and budget? That would be most helpful. How many outputs do you have? Will you also need monitors? What P.A. equipment do you already have?....a small mixer?...anything? If you give this info I can try to help you. __________________ Sam Clayton

30th December 2006, 07:30 PM	#9
theom Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 439	better forum Here is a better forum for live pa stuff, Lots of good info here: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/5/0/ Off the top of my head it seems like you budget would buy you a couple jbl eons and 1 or 2 subs.Used. If you are not giging too much you may be better off calling your local sound company and renting.

2nd January 2007, 05:33 AM	#18
theom Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 439	RENT RENT, figure it into the cost of the show, If you are getting paid, try to pass it on to the promoter/venue. Even if your band is great, with a crap PA you will not be representing the band well. Better not to play than give people a bad sounding show.

30th December 2006, 08:21 AM	#2
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	can anyone just point me in the direction of a few good companies who make PAs? or even the most important specs to look for in a PA... we play moderately sized local shows with the biggest being about 200 people. So this isnt super professional or anything, but I am a little lost on where to even begin researching..

30th December 2006, 03:34 PM	#4
alcohol Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 162	Check out Craigslist in your area. There's used PA equipment all the time. I suggest getting a pair of PA speakers with 15' speakers and horns. Speake brands to think about are: Yamaha Mackie (self powered) JBL and others A small board. (Not a Berhinger) An appropriate power amp. At least 400 watts per side. (Crown, Crest, Peavey) A second power amp and some floor monitors for stage monitoring. Buying used should save you at least 40% off retail costs.

30th December 2006, 04:00 PM	#5
edyer Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: OVER HERE !!! Posts: 435	Lots of power even if you won't use it. A couple of subs to make it sound nice and full. A couple of good vocal/stage monitors. Try those out with your mics to make sure they aren't feedback machines. The powered mackies work pretty well for monitors and can be used for mains/sidefills in the future if you need them. I have a mackie 1642 for a PA console, it's OK but if I could do it again I would go with a small digital mixer that has automation. If you have your show set up you can add a lot of extra stuff from a sequencer and have the sound really dialed in. You won't need to rely on a sound guy all the time to remember when to add effects etc. For your mains you need to figure out if you want them to project a narrow cone of sound or a wider one. Can you add more of them? Will they work in a small array if you need to put more of them up? And most importantly can they fit in the van? Don't buy any of the cheap JBLS or really any of the entry level stuff. You will end up selling it and wishing you had spent the money right the first time (been there, done it, got the T-shirt). I also am a believer that you should have a good voltage regulating power conditioner for your PA gear. Joes bar does not have the right wiring for your high draw amps and you can do some damage if you're not careful. (see T-shirt disclaimer above) hope tha helps.

30th December 2006, 04:40 PM	#6
alcohol Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 162	I'm not sure about the validity of the article, and I can't find it online; but, I remember reading a very technical article where the author argued that in most cases you should run your PA in mono and not stereo. The reason he gave was that stero signals were prone to comb filtering. That past 15 or 20 feet, deleterious comb filtering occurred seriously degrading the quality of sound experienced at various points. Also, only within the first 20 feet or so, does anyone experience stereo.

30th December 2006, 04:53 PM	#7
edyer Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: OVER HERE !!! Posts: 435	I would think you would have comb filtering even in mono. At some point the sound from either main is going to overlap the other. Yamaha has a good book on sound reinforcement out. Good reading if it doesn't bore you to death.

30th December 2006, 07:27 PM	#8
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	Wow thank you all for the information!! you have brightened my path. firstly my budget is probably no more than 800 bucks total definately not over 1000. This is a small local band and while we seem to have a decent fan base here, we havent made any money off of our shows or anything haha so maybe i should just state my goal since I dont seem to have found the right answer... When I mixed our demo, I panned the keyboards 100% left and right, and I like the feeling of the wide surrounding synths, because I often play "epic" sounding horn parts and it seems to sound the most badass that way. so i want to be able to recreate this effect. i dont need all the fancy bells and whistles with effects and stuff. but if the stereo idea wont work in a small venue, then i would do stereo but I would still like to upgrade the PA even if i end up just going mono.

31st December 2006, 02:18 AM	#13
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	Yes renting sounds like a good plan... the venue sizez change, but its usually anywhere from 100-300 people I would say... it is a symphonic metal band, we have a bassist, two guitarists, drummer, vocalist, and me, the keyboardist. usually on a little stage about 1-2 feet off the floor.. firstly, does my idea sound logical? I curently have a single amplifier which obviously cannot produce the stereo effect... I thought that since our vocalist is in need of a new PA anyways, if we both pitched in and bought one, I could put the keys through it as well as his vocals but pan the keys left and right and the vocals down the center. then setup the PA like usual and would get the stereo wide synth effect. would that work or not? that is the first question... thanks to everyone so far.

31st December 2006, 02:37 AM	#15
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	wait, you use this B52 thing for the entire band??? what kind of music do you play?

31st December 2006, 03:01 AM	#17
edyer Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: OVER HERE !!! Posts: 435	Man I don't want to crap on your parade but if you get that B52 setup for a symphonic metal band you will end up selling it and taking a loss. Its probably a nice rig but too small for your needs. If you are going to reproduce metal in a live environment you need to have a few things. You need to creat sound pressure not just sound for that kind of music in order for it to get the full effect. The difference betweeen a SO SO PA and a Good setup makes the band play better and gets the audience involved. You want something that can get the vocals up over the drums and guitars and also reproduce a kik drum. Couple that with reproducing loud synth notes and you will be wishing you had more power and speakers. And if you are going to put stereo synths through it you will likely figure out that stereo guitar effects and stereo vocal effects work pretty well also. Plan to build around what you buy, and not replace what you buy it will pay off in the long run. Renting is a good option though you may be looking at a few hundred bucks per night. Some of the rental outfits are pretty expensive. You may be better off doing a lease to own type deal if you will be getting regular gigs. For a few hundred bucks a month you could get set up pretty well.

2nd January 2007, 06:18 AM	#21
4stringerfinger Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Space City, TX Posts: 240	Used gear. Manufacturers: Peavey, Crown, Eminence, EV, Carvin, QSC, Soundcraft, etc. Check Pawnshops, Ebay, Craigslist, backpage, but most importantly be patient. Its unlikely you'll find it all in one place. Where are you at? There may be some guys on here willing to part with their old stuff.

2nd January 2007, 07:02 PM	#22
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	Yes I am agreeing with what I am hearing here, not to go cheap and be dissapointed.. Now all i need to do is a little thinking about how much money I want to invest in this band, how I will go about ownership of the PA if the band disbands in the future, and then finally if I should buy anything at all.. I would love to have a high watt setup that could be the sound for the keys, vocals, and the kick, hell, do you think I could go DI with the bassguitar into a high quality system? that would have the keys and vocals using primarily the speakers, and then the kick and bass guitar using mostly the subwoofer(s) the reason I ask is because the more people using the system, the more ways I will be able to split the cost... I am in fresno california, btw

2nd January 2007, 10:15 PM	#24
Jim vanBergen Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Friggin' City Posts: 2,294	Where are you located? Maybe we can put you in touch with a decent live sound guy/PA provider who can help you out, perhaps suggestions for your small PA, and rental if you need larger. This is a VERY difficult thing for people to suggest AND HAVE WORK PROPERLY! You need an engineer on your side...be it for garage/bar/club work even though the same laws of physics apply for 30 people and 30,000. There is a LOT of crap out there. Stay away from Behringer. See if you can afford to find one of the local $300/night for PA & engineer guys....unless that is over your budget. I personally really dislike the Mackie, JBL EON, and Yamaha self-powered line...but I'm used to working with a million dollar PA nightly, and if you have 1k to spend, they are pretty good options. Can you describe the band, total number of inputs? Hope this helps! Jim

2nd January 2007, 10:54 PM	#25
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	ok well what about my last question, can the bass guitar go through he PA along with the kick/keys/ and vocals? like I said i think the showsare small to medium sized, 100-200 people usually. so that said, how many watts would I most likely need? 2 guitarists, 1 bassist, 1 drummer, 1 vocalist, and 1 keyboardist the guitars usually just use their amps, sometimes the venue mics them if the kick/bass/vocals/and keys could all go through the PA then my budget restraints might lift a bit.

2nd January 2007, 11:18 PM	#27
DarkEcho Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 1,664	ok here is the deal, everyone in the band has their back line equiptment, every one has their reheasal sound systems... most of the places we play at have some sort of sound system and we dont ever need to rent larger equiptment. my original reason to ask was because I wanted to have wide-panned keyboards during performances and I cant accomplish that with my single amplifier. so I was wanting suggestions for equiptment so that the Vocalist and I could purchase a PA that has two speakers that I could mix my keyboards with and pan wide for shows. the ability to pan the keyboards hard L/R during a show with equiptment that can keep up with the normal volumes of a metal band in a small to medium sized venue. are most venues able to mix the instruments around? like, could I ask for two inputs to the house PA system and have them pann those each hard left and right? the other thing was that the vocalist needs a better PA system anyways for rehearsal. So I wanted to combine both of these needs into a single purchase. Something that could be used for rehearsal as well as in a performance for the wide-symphonic effect.

2nd January 2007, 11:34 PM	#28
Jim vanBergen Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Friggin' City Posts: 2,294	Good explanation! OK, thanks for taking the time to fully explain what you're trying to do. Most house PA's can take a stereo signal and pan it. All you do it say to the house sound guy, I have wide stereo patches, please hard pan my L/R mix in the house. You can buy a 2 channel DI if you like, so that they only need to take an XLR from you, and then you shouldn't experience a small club guy saying "Sorry, I only have 2 DI boxes and I need one for Bass!" and then you will insure you have a matched pair. Just a thought. For yourself and the singer, you could probably get away with a pair of Mackie/JBL EON/Yamaha self-powered speakers on sticks. We really tend NOT to look at sound systems in watts since the 1970's because we tend to instead look at the efficiency of the speaker combined with a specific amplifier. Efficiency is a combination of the amplifier's output voltage and the impedance of the driver(remember E=I/R) and is measured in db at 1W/m, for example, speaker X provides 92dB A weighted at one Watt per meter. So. Having said all THAT, you could get one of several systems, but you need a way to MIX vocals and keyboards, have pan and volume controls for each input (which is going to be a stereo key send (hard panned L/R) and a vocal input (mono); and drive a pair of speakers when you are playing somewere that does not have a decent sound system. Does this sound right?