Recording violin, string quartet - need recommendations and advice!

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by violinflu

Time to get a little bit serious about recording equipment ...

... I will be recording mostly solo violin, violin with piano, and string quartet (2 violins, viola, cello).

My budget is ~$500....

Well, quite a tough task I would say ... Not sure whether within a given budget you could reach any satisfactory results ...

As for the mics, I would not go for SE (just recently I tried them and they are quite sharp and thin)
For the price, Behringer B5 deliver surprisingly good sound ... (a pair could be an option - should not be more than $200 per pair). But how to get a pair of decent preamps and AD converters for $300 I really don´t know ...

For a minimum reasonable setup you could further think of DAV BG-1 preamp and some used Mytek stereo 96 ... But that would require increasing your budget ...

USB Alesis could be good, but it depends what your expectations are ... This kind of things usually delivers quite a limited sound quality results ... which in case of such delicate sources as you mention, could be quite audible

[violinflu]

Wow - thanks for the reply! I realize I'm not going to be recording any "public consumption" albums with my modest setup, and that's ok. I'm basically looking for an upgrade over what I've been using (shouldn't be too difficult!) and something that will allow me to analyze my own playing for practice purposes and possibly make an audition / demo recording once in a while.

Unless I'm mistaken, the audio interfaces I'm looking at include the mic preamps, AD Converter, phantom power, etc built in... So if I gradually decide to upgrade my setup, a dedicated preamp and ADC would seem like good choices. But for now - the M-Audio MobilePre, the Alesis IO2, and the Tascam US122L all (I think) include preamp and ADC in small, $150 packages. One of these, plus say a pair of NT1-As @$200 gets me going for $550, no?

Thoughts?

[emeline-rec]

ribbon mic's are good on strings, they aren't as piercing or harsh as condensers especially on violins or fiddles. i used some coles 4038 with good results although not quite low-end there are some cheaper ribbons available, although ribbons will require more clean preamp gain so you'd need a good preamp

[Roland]

Originally Posted by violinflu

Hello fellow slutz,

As a classical violinist, I have recently become convinced that my method of recording with a cheap Sony mic into an old minidisc recorder, and then dubbing via analog cable into my laptop, is not exactly getting me the highest quality results... Time to get a little bit serious about recording equipment.

I will be recording 99% classical music, which (as I understand it) involves recording "the room" more than the individual musicians. To be specific, I will be recording mostly solo violin, violin with piano, and string quartet (2 violins, viola, cello). From the research I have done it seems like the thing to do is a stereo ORTF setup running through a USB/firewire interface and into my laptop (CuBase, etc.) My budget is ~$500. I would be recording in a number of locations, so portability is somewhat of a concern.

The local music store sound guy recommended an Alesis IO2 USB audio interface (link) with a pair of Shure SM86 Cardioid mics. (link) and he offered the package for $450. After further research, searching this forum, etc. I haven't found any reference to the SM86 and recording strings. Other mics that have caught my eye, and seem to have been used for recording strings, include the CAD M179, the Rode NT1-A, and SE SE1A.

What do the experts think? Am I remotely on the right track here? I realize I'm looking at the low end of the low end of serious gear, but I would be very grateful for any input! Thanks in advance.

To be honest with you I would be very suprised if that set up was really any improvement over the Sony and MD set-up. I am guessing when you are talking about a cheap sony mic you are meaning the 909 (this is about $170 (£100)) and is pretty capable for what it is. The other mic's you mention are not going to catapult you into a "studio quality" league, no where near it. If the reason is for listening to yourself and checking performance quality I would buy a decent mic stand and experiment a little more with your mic position, if it is for selling I would get a pro in, as the or one of the player you have enough to do without having to consider recording issues.

You might get away with your recording software (consider recording your mic directi into the laptop and just buying an interface, bypassing the minidisc), but for example when I record the sort of projects you are talking about I will be using mic set-ups that cost a minimum of £2,000 and quite possibly £7,000 (some of the projects you mention often require more than one pair) + mic amps and all the other gear involved.

I hope this is of help to you.

Regards


Roland

[analogjeff]

given your budget, try the least expensive ribbon mics you can find, and start from there... ribbons really do help with cheap high end...

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by violinflu

The local music store sound guy recommended an Alesis IO2 USB audio interface (link) with a pair of Shure SM86 Cardioid mics. (link)

Hmm. The mic choice sure is off the chart in my world. Maybe that guy is not the best to ask.

My two cents here. I started out a few years ago with the original MBox. Still finds that a viable solution, decent mic pres and converters. You should be able to find one used with a lot of life left on ebay or similar. It can be run with whatever software you choose, or with the included ProFools.

As for starter software I recommend Magix Audio Studio, a competent little brother to Samplitude / Sequioa which burns CD-s directly from the program (save a lot of time).

As for mics, here it becomes difficult. With your budget limit it will be a bit difficult. First problem is that you will not be able to understand the difference until you have tried some really good mics. Why not check out you local market -- there might be a rental house or even a dedicated pro or amateur that will allow you to rent / lend some really good mics and try out? Renting top mics is surprisingly cheap compared to buying them.

When you are ready to buy, in the budget class just maybe the Roede NT5 might be something to look at. I have not used it, but the other Roedes I have tried are generally better than the price. (One not to recommend, I am a fan of the B1 model, but definitely not the Studio Projects C4, never gave me a single good recording).

Another alternative may be the used market. For a little more you might be able to find a pair of Neumann KM184-s. I found a used pair of Sennheiser MKH406, a really old model which does really good work.

Sadly though, the really good mics comes at a rather steep price. Once you have acquired that taste though, it is difficult to go back. Better be forewarned.

As for mic setups, ORTF is generally a good starting point. You should however allow yourself to try out with omni mics. In a good room, omni mics definitely creates a much better sound. On the other hand, they do highlight the bad things of a bad room.

Gunnar

[Roland]

$500 won't buy any ribbons I know of, and I dare say buying ribbons that price could be disasterous.

The cheap Sony mics are (to the best of my knowledge) MS set-up's so there is not much advantage to be had by going with omni's, particularly at this price point.

Getting an interface for your laptop and recording straight in might be of benefit though.


Regards


Roland

[warhead]

Alesis IO2 = fine for what you're doing.

Pair of CAD M179 would be great and offer completely variable patterns.

You're very close to budget and maxed out on quality / versatility in that price range.

War

[chief lutt]

check this out.

beyerdynamic makes decent ribbons.

http://salestores.com/bemfihadorim.html


i record mostly violin/classical guitar also. i love my nt1-as. a stereo pair will cost about $500. you'd still need an interface.

the chinese mics i've heard are noisy. i got the nt1-a for it's low self noise. the sm81 for its flat freq. response and the at3032 omnis for future experiments w/ jecklin disc. i recently recorded a violinist for audition cds and used three diff. mics. shure sm81, at3032 (omni) and nt1-a. the sm81 sounded really ugly. the violin sounded dry, muted almost and ....sticky for lack of a better word. not even reverb could fix it. i returned it right away and exchanged it for an at4051. i'll let you know how it sounds when i get it. the at3032 sounded considerably better than the sm81. but the nt1-a sounded really detailed and crisp and also it picked up the natural reverb of the room and strings. the nt1-a also picked up one thing the other mics did not - computer fan noise. my laptop was a good 30 feet away behind the kitchen counter. i had to move the laptop to a different room just so the mics wouldn't pick the fan noise. i wish i could share more but my experience with mics is just as limited as my budget. good luck finding a good interface. i'm looking for one myself. stay away from lexicon omega (used to recommend them to people) and presonus fire_____ (fill in the blank. whatever it is don't).

check out http://northernsound.net/Sales/salesframe.html. lots of good deals on gear - specially on audio techinicas!

as far as fan noise is concerned, i built a baffle with two labyrinthian air intake/exhaust for my older laptop. i haven't had time to build one for my new laptop. definitely something you should consider. good luck.

[violinflu]

Thanks for all the input! This is really incredibly helpful. At this point I'm looking at M179, NT1A, NT5, and AT4041. My priorities are detail and accuracy, with a bonus for being small and light, so I'm leaning toward either a pair of matched NT5s for $330, or (more likely) 2 AT4041s for ~$390. Viva ebay!

Thanks again,
Jesse

[jnorman]

jesse - the at4041s are likely your best bet in the less-espensive SD condenser mics, and they do pretty well as a ORTF stereo pair as long as you stay in fairly close (they, like so many cheaper SDCs (inlcuding km184s) can get pretty thin as you move further out. ) for relaly good ORTF recoridngs, you should look for a pair of mics that have a very flat response curve, suxh as AKG C481s, DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc641s, etc. most of the cheaper mics, like the NT5s, etc, have a pronounced high end lift which can be death to strings.

the other factor, of course, is the space where you record. in a great space, you can make wonderful recordings with a good stereo pair - in a poor space, your recordings will sound thin or muddy and amateurish. tracking in various spaces will yeild a wide variety to the sound of your recordings, which is likely not a good thing, especially if you plan to release any of it - you want consistency. because of this, while the traditional standard is capturing the room and performace with a stereo pair, you might consider individually micing each instrument, with two mics on the piano. mic at around 3 feet out, do not worry about minimal leakage from other mics (that can be your friend). mix in the studio, and add reverb as needed. it is much easier to control the overall sound and mix this way, and offers you at least a reasonable control over consistency in your recordings. many pro groups, such as kronos, are tracked individually like this.

[lebouche]

Originally Posted by jnorman

jesse - the at4041s are likely your best bet in the less-espensive SD condenser mics, and they do pretty well as a ORTF stereo pair as long as you stay in fairly close (they, like so many cheaper SDCs (inlcuding km184s) can get pretty thin as you move further out. ) for relaly good ORTF recoridngs, you should look for a pair of mics that have a very flat response curve, suxh as AKG C481s, DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc641s, etc. most of the cheaper mics, like the NT5s, etc, have a pronounced high end lift which can be death to strings.

the other factor, of course, is the space where you record. in a great space, you can make wonderful recordings with a good stereo pair - in a poor space, your recordings will sound thin or muddy and amateurish. tracking in various spaces will yeild a wide variety to the sound of your recordings, which is likely not a good thing, especially if you plan to release any of it - you want consistency. because of this, while the traditional standard is capturing the room and performace with a stereo pair, you might consider individually micing each instrument, with two mics on the piano. mic at around 3 feet out, do not worry about minimal leakage from other mics (that can be your friend). mix in the studio, and add reverb as needed. it is much easier to control the overall sound and mix this way, and offers you at least a reasonable control over consistency in your recordings. many pro groups, such as kronos, are tracked individually like this.

Hi just to butt in...
I'm about to track violin...my room sounds bad as it is v small but it is v dry which helps.
Should I just use one mic then to avoid the room sound?
I've got an NTK, a couple of nt1s a pair of studio project c1's which I dont like much..and some sm57s.
Thanks

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by lebouche

Hi just to butt in...
I'm about to track violin...my room sounds bad as it is v small but it is v dry which helps.
Should I just use one mic then to avoid the room sound?
I've got an NTK, a couple of nt1s a pair of studio project c1's which I dont like much..and some sm57s.
Thanks

Violin on one mic sounds always bad to me ... It is too complex source. A stereo pair would sound always better

[classicalrecord]

two studio projects B1's a plus an echo audiofire4 puts right at $500--- perfect, no? but definitely better and more accurate than your current setup. something to consider.

[knightrupert]

Has anyone tried the Peluso CEMC6 on violin?

[lebouche]

Think I'll use the NTK. My nt1s arent a matching pair so I'll just close mic.
Convertor wise I got a metric halo with pres but I'll prob go into that digitally after the liquid channels. God damn I need some good mics!! I could hire them... but it will eat in to my small enough fee and a nice pair is goint to capture too much of my bad room sound.
hhhmmnnnnn

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by violinflu

my method of recording with a cheap Sony mic into an old minidisc recorder, and then dubbing via analog cable into my laptop, is not exactly getting me the highest quality results... Time to get a little bit serious about recording equipment.

A mic stand is obviously missing in your chain. The most cost effective advice in this case would be: a good mic stand and better mic positioning.

Afterwards you can buy a better pre/converters, mics etc.

But with a max of $500, I would go for a $50 mic stand. A good stereo bar for the new mics could already cost $200 ...

In my experience, the worst part (soundwise) of all the MD recordings I've transferred to CD comes from the VERY bad mic positioning.