tom mics

[pianoman]

Hello, all --

I'm miking drums for jazz, not rock. I'm new to miking drums and am learning. For overheads I tried some small diaphragm condensers and was dissatistfied. I prefer the AKG 414s for the accuracy and depth of sound. Kick -- AKG D112. Snare -- AT 4050 (because I own the mic). I'm considering miking the toms (3) independently to give a bit more control in the mix and so I could potentially use the OHs to shape the cymbals more than the toms. The room dimensions are 31'L x 9'H x W[11' opening out to 22' near the drums], hardwood floors with some carpeting I'm going for "sounds like it's in the jazz club" -- not "sounds like a studio recording".

I've done a bit of searching on GS. People mention SM57, EV604 and 904, SM98 and a few others. I'm looking for a rich, natural tom sound with depth (long decay). I'm perfectly prepared to skip the tom mics if I believe the sound won't get much better than the 4 mic solution I'm already using, and which sounds good to me as recorded.

Opinions?

[hedgehog]

Ok, I often use for live Sennheiser e604, they are pretty cheap and sounds ok. Otherwise, you can´t go wrong with Sennheiser MD421 or 57´s and so on.

If the drum kit sounds good and the drummer is ok, every of these standart tom microphones will sound good.
The rest is like: "I like...but I don´t like..."
Try all of these if you are able to.

I don´t like the D112, I prefer shure Beta 52, SM 91, MD 421... for the Kick Drum.
For studio recordings I ever use the 421´s for toms.


Just my 2 cents!

[pkautzsch]

The most important thing for "sounds like in the jazz club" is, imho, a certain amount of "good leakage" and a room mic/pair for the whole band. In the few jazz recordings I have made so far, this usually coincided with less close mics. One overhead in the perfect place - have found taking the name literally over the drummer's head is a good starting point - , one kick mic to be blended in very softly, maybe a snare mic for brushes. If the kit is balanced in itself, and the drummer is good, that's perfectly enough for typical jazz. I mean, I don't need the toms spread out from hard left to hard right, or to have different reverbs on each tom, and so on.
When having more control and blending in close-miked toms, this might force you to also put a close mic to the hat and to everything else.

What also works great on toms is some LDCs. Used TLM170 once, and Oktava 219 is also nice, gives a very round and warm sound (and CHEAP!). Not the standard 421 sound, though, which I prefer on guitar combo speakers.

[taturana]

a shure beta 57a can give you a pretty clear tom sound...

the sennheiser e906 is also pretty decent for that application...

of course let's not forget the 421's

[big country]

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...one?sku=270056

I have been wanting one of theis for some time

its a sleeper

[Remoteness]

You know, we have good answers here...

IMO, what's just as (or more) important is mic placement and positioning.

And, (for me) that's the key to a successful recording!

[Jim vanBergen]

Remoteness is SPOT ON!

Just about any mic for toms has worked well for me: from Sm57s (haven't done that for over 15 years, though) to 421s to Audix D2s, Shure Beta 98's, AMT A-95s, to the Sennheiser 504s (then 604s, now 904s) that I have decided are THE best choice clip-on mic for me in terms of ease & speed of mounting, ideal (good+ accurate) tone, no phantom required, impervious to bad split/high impedance situations, and able to be hit by a drumstick several times without being completely destroyed (I think it took six hits to split the housing open).

Much less important than the drum mic you choose is placement, as almost any mic will do. Beyond my favorite 3/4 kit miking (D6 on kick, Beta 57 or Senn 504 on snare, either Earthworks SR77 (now SR30s), Schoeps CMC5/MK4, or Neumann KM84s on single overheard (1.5 sticks above the snare, directly above the drummer's right hand (at rest) or a wider pair to capture the kit from higher.

I have also miked kits with weird mics... kit on three Sm57s; kit on six RE20s, kit with six 416 shotguns, kit with four AKG460s, and can go on and on... any mic will do, it's placement, placement, placement:

1) placement of the mic relative to the drum(s) they are covering
2) placement of the drum relative to the player's perspective (See Steve's tutorial on miking from the drummer's perspective! This is INVALUABLE mic technique.)
3) placement of the drum kit in the room/studio
4) placement of the damping/absorbtive materials you will use to provide the proper room sound, or the clear-sonic or similar drum baffling you might use to reduce other instruments or reflections from entering the capsule.

Hope these thoughts help!

Jim

[pianoman]

Thanks, all, for well informed and thoughtful responses.

I see this thread is, for the moment, juxtaposed next to Remoteness' thread on his Miles Davis recordings -- long before I was a member, but revived today. If I read correctly, it was good enough to use two OHs, a snare, a kick and a "one mic catches all" to do this kind of world class recording work. I feel most inadequate in believing I need separate tom mics. Clear decision .

One poster referenced Steve Remote's "tutorial on miking from the drummer's perspective". I've done a search. Do you by any chance refer to the "virtual gobos" Remoteness-"virtual gobos" ? Or is there a further tutorial I didn't catch?

[bongo]

I've been using everything from 414's to U87's to At450's and lately, when I mix, use none of them. I use a pair of ROYER 122'S For overheads and a bd mic and I'm fine with the sound of everything. But I won't stop trying!

[jslevin]

If we're talking about straight-ahead, improvised jazz, I have never heard a really good drum recording that used tom mics. I have heard many brilliant recordings with three mics, or even fewer, on the whole kit.

Adding tom mics is going in the wrong direction. Stop trying to "shape the cymbals." You have to get the whole kit. In jazz, unlike in rock, the actual sound of the kit is what you're trying to capture.

To put it another way, what you're trying to do is nothing like a Rush album.

JSL

[celticrogues]

I agree with jslevin; those 414's can be really great if positioned correctly at picking up the whole kit - you can get a great jazz sound that way, IMHO.
If you do need tom mics though, you can also try the AT 2020 large diaphragm condensers. Nice tom mics, and they have a pretty wide cardiod pattern that will pick up some of the rest of the kit and may allow you to blend them better with the rest of the kit for a better "whole kit" feel, as opposed to a "close-miked" feel.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Steve Smith]

ok... just to throw another opinion on the pile... I am assuming this is NOT a actual club or a live situation for some reason, so correct me if I am wrong.

I have had tons o' fun using the royer ribbons as overheads on kits when going for the open-sounding-jazzy-thing. I would seriously look at trying that as an overall kit sound and then using those 414s for the toms if you think you need them.. now, if this is a live senario, the royers may blow as kit mics, at which point I would take a long hard listen to the smallish Sennheisers mentioned earlier for the toms...

and remember, if you have control of the venue and are not 100% happy with the sound of the instruments in an ambient micing situation, some acoustic treatment ( not deading nessacarily) may be the best "tom" mics you can buy....

[foldback]

I approach every recording from a jazz-blues purist point of view which requires only two mics, a U-89 overhead and a Beta 91 on the kick.

Then I add a few more mics to cover my ass for more flexibility at mixdown.

The little clamp-on Sennheisers on the toms, Beyer 422 on snare top, MXL 2001 on snare side, another MXL 2001 under the snare, an AKG D-112 inside the kick near where the beater hits, a custom shop tube condenser out in front of the kick, a stereo pair of AKG 460 overheads, 414 on the ride, two more 414 on crash left and crash right, a U-87 on the high hat and a pair of Crown PZM for room sound.

If I still have additional preamps and inputs then I'll put up a couple of DBX driverack calibration mics as additional overheads, these little omni's don't have much gain but they've got realism and they're soooo inexpensive.

[Steve Smith]

Originally Posted by foldback

I approach every recording from a jazz-blues purist point of view which requires only two mics, a U-89 overhead and a Beta 91 on the kick.

Then I add a few more mics to cover my ass for more flexibility at mixdown.

The little clamp-on Sennheisers on the toms, Beyer 422 on snare top, MXL 2001 on snare side, another MXL 2001 under the snare, an AKG D-112 inside the kick near where the beater hits, a custom shop tube condenser out in front of the kick, a stereo pair of AKG 460 overheads, 414 on the ride, two more 414 on crash left and crash right, a U-87 on the high hat and a pair of Crown PZM for room sound.

If I still have additional preamps and inputs then I'll put up a couple of DBX driverack calibration mics as additional overheads, these little omni's don't have much gain but they've got realism and they're soooo inexpensive.

You just went from Buddy Rich to Dream Theatre......