Compressor on the 2 buss while mixing, or after mixing?

[RIZ Records]

When mixing hip-hop, is it better to mix through a 2 buss compressor or slap it on the 2 buss after your mix is finished to add the glue, and finished "record" sound? Do any of your guys know how current engineers who mix hip-hop for major lables do it?

Im going to pick up a Alan Smart C1 for mixing and for the 2 buss, but if its best to mix through it, then if i wanted to compress just a kick seperately while mixing, would i need two C1's?


Thx in advance.

[Osten Powers]

I mixed my LP on a SSL 4000 G+ Console, and I compressed while mixing. I made the experience that when I compress the stereo sum after the mix, the levels of the different instruments changed and I had to do a correction in the volume. If you mix while the compressor is on you don't have to do it again. You know what I mean?

Peace CHS aka Osten Powers

www.myspace.com/chsakaostenpowers

[RIZ Records]

Thx Osten, yeah i hear what u mean.


Basically i was asking because i want to compress some things like kicks, snares,ect, individually with the Alan Smart C1, and i wanted to use the C1 also on the 2 buss for the glue,ect.


Depending on the situation,ect, i'll track some stuff with the Distressors for some compression and colour, but when mixing if i wanted to add more ssl type smack and sound, id use the C1 individually to further compress those sounds.


So i guess i would have to buy two Alan Smart C1's if i wanted to mix through it, and at the same time also use it to compress things individually?

[STARSKI]

or retrack thru it and keep your original track if you need to change anything. takes more time but saves you some dough!

[RIZ Records]

Hey STARSKI, i dont really understand.


Lets say im mixing through the C1, and i want to use the C1 to compress a kick individually while mixing, i would have to take the C1 off the 2 buss, to mix that kick, print it, then strap the C1 on the 2 buss again. Wont the kick change if i do this?

[STARSKI]

i suppose if you are using the c1 the whole time. i normally would get the mix without master buss compression how you like it and then add some master buss compression when you have your mix how you like. yes having 2 would be more convenient for sure, just trying to give you another option.

[NesNeedsGear]

i don't mix with anything on the 2bus. Sometimes I'll add a comp, once I like what i've done with the mix, IF it's called for. Some people add it just because they THINK it glues the track, when in actuality it may be harming what they just worked hard to achieve.

but to answer your question, leave it till after you're satisfied with your mix (is that ever possible??..lol, i know it isn't, for me).

I let the mastering boys (and girls) work THEIR magic and add better dynamic control and sonic clarity to my mix. After all, they're pushing it through gear I probably won't be able to afford for YEARS.

[RIZ Records]

Thx a lot STARSKI and NesNeedsGear, for your help.


basically the reason i wanted to use a compressor on the 2 buss is to glue everything together, add a bit of overall colour, and a more finished sound, like the sound the SSL Quad imparts, like the finishing touch. I want to get a sound ready for the radio type deal.


Ive read that strapping on a 2 buss compressor like the SSL comp after the mix can take away from the bottom end, cause other problems, and that if you mix through it you can avoid these problems. I definetly want to use a compressor on the 2 buss, so how would i get all the benifits from it while maintaining my low end and not causing any other problems to my mix?

[STARSKI]

you should still wait till your done with your mix to add any compression on the 2 buss. if your using enough compression to where your taking a way lots of bottom or altering the mix that much than your using too much. so i would get the mix as good as possible, then only use like 2 or 3 db of gain reduction tops.... my 2 cents

[RIZ Records]

Hey STARSKI,

So just by adding the 2 buss compressor with 3db of gain reduction will add the finishing glue to the 2 mix and polish it off for the "radio ready" type of sound?


Ive read advertisement quotes like "Running the mix through the C2 gives the user the sense that their project is ready for the radio". So this can be acheived with just 3-4db of gain added after the mix?



Tony B and others, can you chime in here a bit aswell? Ive done tons of reading and searching on here, but there's mostly a lot of info on this from the cats that mix rock and not hip-hop. Thx and peace!

[NesNeedsGear]

Originally Posted by RIZ Records

...I definetly want to use a compressor on the 2 buss, so how would i get all the benifits from it while maintaining my low end and not causing any other problems to my mix?

the trick with compressing, is getting ALL the parameters right (duh.lol).

Once you got the threshold, and the ratio the way you like, with the gain reduction you're looking for....the next button to tweak is obviously the Attack setting.

Too fast and you lose the dynamic of the kick/bass together, too slow and you're not really doing anything to your mix. Try figuring out the attack/release with regard to song tempo. how long does a 1/4 note take, 1/8th note?, 1/2 note?

Set the attack/release setting in accordance with song tempo, and you'll notice a big change in dynamic control. It'll make sense once you try and hear it for yourself.

[STARSKI]

the thing is you still need to get mastering done. so if you do too much compression your going to mess it up for the mastering engineer. that's why i suggest only a couple dbs of compression for 1 the sound of the compressor and for 2 to gel the whole track together. i personally don't use any compression on the buss while mixing but its not that its a bad idea. i just as soon leave it for the mastering engineer to do or if i am gonna master it myself.

[RIZ Records]

Hey STARSKI, yeah thing is at the monent i wont be sending my stuff to a mastering engineer. I want to do it the best i can myself for now. I friend of mine mastered his own track, and sent a unmastered version to a very respectable mastering engineer and a very respectable company ( dont wanna mention the name ), and my friends version sounded slightly better, the mastering engineers version was a bit darker and the drums didnt punch as much. So for now id rather do it myself the best i can. For now this is going to be for demo purposes and i'll make an unmastered version aswell incase it ends up going on a major album,ect.


So if im mastering my own stuff, do you still think its a better idea to add a touch of 2 buss compression after mixing, or mix through it?



The thing is im stuck in a situation where i need to make a choice. I can purchase 3 compressors, one Alan Smart C1 with modded side chain, one API 2500, and one Vintech 609CA. This way i have 3 flavors, i dont know though if mainstream hip-hop cats use neve compressors too much. If its better to mix through the 2 buss compressor then i'll need two C1's and that only leaves me with the API or the Vintech compressor, instead of both. To tell you the truth i dont know what to beleive. Ive read on here that mixing through the compressor give you more control over the dynamics of tracks more easily, and after a mix is balanced it will both ruin the volume balance between tracks, the dynamics and also the panorama, at least when 2 buss compression after the mix is applied in the wrong way.



But i was reading an article where Neil Pogue the engineer who mixed "Hey Ya!" for Andre 3000, said he doesnt really like to use master buss compressor on the ssl, and if he does he uses it very lightly so it doesnt get really squashed. He does hit tape hard and rely's on that for compression though. "Hey Ya" sounded pretty cool, but i really admire Dre mixes. I know he uses the SSL channel compressor on everything, but the closest im going to get to that for now is using the outboard SSL compressor like the C1 which is dual mono.


What should i do! Thx a lot for the help so far!

[Teacher]

I got a thread up where I did my 2bus compression after the printed 2 mix I dunno if that helps or not..... its in the rap forum called PSP vs UAD

[STARSKI]

i still wouldnt set my whole mix up going thru a compressor on the 2 bus. also, what are you mixing on? what are you tracking with? what kind of sound are you going for? a little more info would help to where i could give you some more advice.

[Methlab]

If you are going to use a compressor on your 2 buss, why would you not mix through it the whole time?

You can't just put a compressor on your 2 buss at the end and expect magic, that is not how it works. If you want to glue together a mix, you should have it on the whole time you are mixing.

Alos, if you are losing low end, make sure your attack is slow enough to let the transients through.

[studio825]

lets face it,if you do a entire mixdown through any type of compression you are getting tired ears.End result your mixes will suffer.Mixdown you tune adding compression to individual that might need it.ask yourself am i happy with the mix?If yes than insert your 2 buss compression and start to remix accordingly.Your mixes will be better and you will be able to mix longer.Keep your ears protected should be first and foremost in any session or mixdown.

[RIZ Records]

Hey everybody, thanks for your replies.


As far as what im using to mix,track,record,ect. Some i have now and the rest i'll be picking up next week.

Mic Pre/DI's:

- Aurora Audio GT2QmkIII
- API 512c stereo pair
- A-Designs P1 stereo pair
- Tube Tech MP1A


Compressors:

-Empirical Labs Distressors stereo pair with Brit Mod
- Tube Tech CL1B
- Purple Audio MC77
- Alan Smart C1 dual mono with modded side chain
- API 2500
- Vintech 609CA


EQ's:

- Manley Massive Passive
- Avedis E27 Stereo pair
- 3 band EQ on Aurora Audio GT2Q


I'll be using mostly this hardware for tracking and mixing, i'll be recording into cubase SX3, so with my 8 channel convertors i can patch in some hardware like VST's to mix tracks, tweak, and re-print once im done. Its going to be a bit more of a pain, but im a hardware guy and i think it sounds better than plug-ins, and easier to dial in a good sound where you actually hear a nice difference and improvment. But on the plug-in side, im going to grab the waves SSL bundle mostly for the EQ, im going to pick up a hardware SSL FX383 for the EQ in the near future though. Im also debatting wheather to get the UAD-1 Card for the precision limiter, precision eq, delays and reverb, or get the TC powercore for the delays and reverb, since i only have one slot left on my comp.


The type of sound im going after? Well i love the sonics of the newer dre records, storch records, some just blaze records,ect. I know lots of cats use the SSL for mixing, so the closest hardware wise im going to get to that for now is the outboard compressor and EQ. I know its takes time and experience to mix as good as those dudes, but i'll pick it up. I also wanted a few different flavors so i dont sound the same all the time.



Regarding the 2 buss compression, im trying to mix as i go and basically i want to track everything as close to a mix as possible. I dont know if thats the best way to do things or not. Also, i want to pre EQ and mabye pre-compress the drums before i load them into the MPC. I read of producers pre EQ'ing there drums all the time, but is it a bad idea to pre-compress them aswell?


The situation im stuck in is the C1 is going to be one of my most important compressors because its got that ssl punch, and its a standard. I want to use it on individual drums and mabye a few instruments, but i also want to use it on the 2 buss for the glue,ect. So im guessing there is no way around this and i'd have to buy 2 Alan Smart C1's if i wanted to do what i want?

[Methlab]

Whats your thoughts on trading that C1 in for a C2?

A studio I frequent had the C1 and traded for the C2. That was their mix buss compressor for years until they got an SSL. The C2 had that "set it and forget it" quality, where he had it on from the tracking stage to mixing. The thing was always on the 2 buss.

I don't think your buss compressor should be set so hard that will fatigue your ears. It should be a subtle thing.

Oh, and you will have to choose what you are going to use your C1 on, unless you have the exact same settings for the drums and the master buss..which I seriously doubt.

[RIZ Records]

Hey Methlab, actually the C1 was one of those peices that im picking up very soon, when its in stock, so i can def grab a C2 instead. Only reason i opted for the C1 is because ive read the C1 comes closer to the SSL G series buss comp, and the C1 sounds better. Ive heard people say the C2 sounds more bright a hi-fi, britney spears like, more harsh,ect, and doesnt have as good a bottom end as the C1. Thats the only reason i had my mind set on the C1. I might be able to demo both if they're both instock, ect. I think a lot of records im admiring are being mixed on the SSL 4000 G series. I also like the sound of a lot of G-Unit records, and im afraid the C2 will not sound right for this type of sound.


So are you saying if i got the C2, i could use it both on the 2 buss and on mixing individual tracks at the same time without problems?

[RIZ Records]

Hey crossroad, basically because im not paying upfront cash for the C1.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by RIZ Records

So are you saying if i got the C2, i could use it both on the 2 buss and on mixing individual tracks at the same time without problems?

no, you would have to pick one to go with. my friend uses his C2 on his stereo buss and thats it.

[STARSKI]

all im saying is if you want to use it on an individual drum go for it and then if you need it on the 2 buss later retrack your drum sound with the compressor on it and then slap it on the 2 buss. don't mix thru it the whole time though, only add it at the end if you need. thats just my advice

[IJsman]

I use it while mixing, with the SSL mixbuss comp on a low ratio, only dampening the peaks, then tweak it a little at the end. When I put the comp on during or after the mix, the balance gets messed up a lot of times, not all though.

[STARSKI]

i don't know, seems like if your whole mix is getting thrown off when you add compression at the end your either using too much of it or don't have your settings right. i wouldn't use that much compression on the buss at the end of the mix. i would rather either use just a little bit, or none and then leave for the mastering engineer or if i am mastering myself just let myself do it later. i will sometimes add a limiter on for a second to get a glimpse of what it might sound like after mastering, but i don't leave it on while i am building a mix. but in the end, do whatever takes you to where you need to go to get a good mix....

[Stitch333]

When I was still learnin and gettin my skills up, I was mixing a HipHop album at Judgement in PHL. It was an ssl 4k. Joe 'tha butcha' Niccolo walks in the room, listens for a second, then CRANKS (I mean CRANKS) the bus compressor...listens for a second...tweaks it...and turns to me and says, 'Now finish the mix'.
The mixes came out slammin...
How can you NOT use a comp on the 2 if its HipHop?

[IJsman]

Come on now. Compression on just a stereo drum track will change the balance, simply because loud transients will "dent" softer parts behind it. So yeah, compression WILL change the balance. I like the change, a lot of times, but on the SSL 4K, adding it early on gets better results for me personally. Depends on the track though.

[STARSKI]

yeah when you send it to mastering what do you think they are going to do? compress and limit and all that. so that would change the balance as well. one trick the guy showed me workin on a real ssl was he would slam the master buss and it would impart a compression on the song. maybe i should try what you guys are doing though and start off a mix thru a comp, just to see...

[Stitch333]

Starski, I think you had it right...what ever it takes to get a hot mix. I will say the C2 makes it a f**kload easier. Id be runnin that sucka night an day. I like a Comp on the 2 for mixing for the simple fact that the mix sounds phatty from the jump and it sounds 'polished' for my clients right away (instant gratification).

[IJsman]

Originally Posted by STARSKI

yeah when you send it to mastering what do you think they are going to do? compress and limit and all that. so that would change the balance as well.

Exactly. Like I said, it's not 10:1 compression, and sometimes I just leave it off. On top of that, why would I leave something to do for the mastering engineer, that I can do myself? I also use EQ on the masterbuss as well, shoot me. I know what I want the sound to be, and I'm not going to limit it or anything, but I'll try to get as close as that as I possibly can.