Compressor on the 2 buss while mixing, or after mixing?

[beat you down]

would it be safe to conclude it all depends on the material and personal taste?

[IJsman]

haha, yes indeed.

[Methlab]

yep, experience and personal taste.

For me, I started out with the Ren compressor back in the day on my 2 buss. I would slap it on at the end of a mix, and be like "WTF..this blows..why would someone do this?". Then I was at my friends studio when he was doing a record for a label. That C2 was in there even during tracking. So I went and tried that. I noticed that everything started popping out especially when i started Eqing the drums. I built the entire mix and then took off the compressor..and the mix lost all it's life again..so that was my personal experience and why I do it the way I do it.

[qubi]

I recently went thru the same situation (b4 or after mix comp.) I usually apply my 2bus chain (1968 --> avalon 747) after the mix is done, just for a little sweetening and glue. Especially true for smaller ITB projects. a couple a days ago i decided to mix a song with the 1968 from the start. the mix was spread out on my board (dmx100) and i found that it was more coherent and tight than usual. Also, i felt that i was getting more out of the compressor while i was working. Of course i wasn't pushing it too hard, 3db reduction max, but i could feel what it was doing and work with it more than when i just patch a finished mix through the chain, otherwise when you do that, you have to be more careful and subtle. Also, as mentioned earlier, patching a finished mix thru a comp. will reveal all kinds of things that you didn't account for, and make you second guess your mix.

One thing to note though is that i had the song in pretty good shape ( i produce the material, so i kinda mix as i go along), and as soon as i strapped in the comp, i went to the loudest parts to gauge how hard it was hitting the needles (imagine that, a song with varying dynamics!!!). Anyway, once i had the levels, mixing went pretty smoothly.

FWIW I'm going to mix more often through the comp now, because it worked for me. I intentionally didnt mix thru the 747 as well, because i use that for the "added sweetening" at the end, I know that if i start with that, especially with the eq engaged, all i'm going to end up with is an overley bright and fatiguing mix..

BTW, all the above suggestion are purely for mixes that WON'T be mastered professionally!! yeah, i get a lot of those too if i am sending the mix off to be mastered, then its digital straight off the board, with NO 2buss at all..

Hope this helped. Best of luck

[RIZ Records]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the help, advice, and experiences.


Im definetly going to mix through the compressor from the start, so i dont get any surprises at the end. Seems like good advice. Thanks again everybody!

[Future One]

I know a lot of the drum and bass guys are mixing into an L2.

[EKG Productions]

Riz you should try every combination and see what works for you. Mixing a record is like shopping for clothes, getting dressed in the morning or hell even having sex lol...; We all do it differently. In order to get the best results for yourself, you must use trail and error.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Future One

I know a lot of the drum and bass guys are mixing into an L2.

HOW DARE THEY!!!!

[fn86]

Originally Posted by NesNeedsGear

the trick with compressing, is getting ALL the parameters right (duh.lol).

Too fast and you lose the dynamic of the kick/bass together, too slow and you're not really doing anything to your mix. Try figuring out the attack/release with regard to song tempo. how long does a 1/4 note take, 1/8th note?, 1/2 note?

Set the attack/release setting in accordance with song tempo, and you'll notice a big change in dynamic control. It'll make sense once you try and hear it for yourself.

i really like the way you broke that down, got any startingpointers for setting the release "synced" with the tempo and notedurations of the track?

[HoPMiX]

I just dont get it.
Ive wanted to...
Ive mixed on 4k-9000j- and a hybrid system with all SSL summing and a g series buss comp.
Ive tweaked that thing every which way, mixed with it on, off, crushed it, tapped it.. and my findings are with hip hop, its only compressing the one thing you want to pop.. the drums, mainly kick. Now ive heard it on some rock records where the low end energy isnt as important and it really puts everything in your face. i like that. but for hip hop, i want the kick to give me troube breathing and the snare to make my eyes blink. THWACK.
almost all cases im like why are my drums so small and lifeless.. Press white insert button.. oh thats why.. this damn compressor is killling em.
it does get you a hotter mix ill admit but there are no dynamics...
and yeah it sounds good... but does it sound better with it off..

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by fn86

i really like the way you broke that down, got any startingpointers for setting the release "synced" with the tempo and notedurations of the track?

Yes..use the old ears. Also what kind of track is it? Does it pump 16ths? Then you need a faster release maybe. Maybe it is slower and drives in quarter notes..slower release. You have to use your ears on this stuff. If you have a renaissance compressor, you can always google an ms to bpm convertor. It will show you different ms for the BPM of your track. Then you can put in different values into the Ren comp's release to train your ears.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

I just dont get it.
Ive wanted to...
Ive mixed on 4k-9000j- and a hybrid system with all SSL summing and a g series buss comp.
Ive tweaked that thing every which way, mixed with it on, off, crushed it, tapped it.. and my findings are with hip hop, its only compressing the one thing you want to pop.. the drums, mainly kick. Now ive heard it on some rock records where the low end energy isnt as important and it really puts everything in your face. i like that. but for hip hop, i want the kick to give me troube breathing and the snare to make my eyes blink. THWACK.
almost all cases im like why are my drums so small and lifeless.. Press white insert button.. oh thats why.. this damn compressor is killling em.
it does get you a hotter mix ill admit but there are no dynamics...
and yeah it sounds good... but does it sound better with it off..

yeah. my quote from a year ago applies to rock really. I think people **** up in mixing because they just feel they have to do something because "that's how it's done". So they throw a compressor on the whole mix and **** it up..but they are not listening with their ears and hearts so they keep it on there.

I don't think you need a bus compressor for beats. You don't need to compress that much..I like to compress in parallel and maybe squash something for effect, but it's not like rock where you are going for a different type of drum sound.

[ryst]

I'm not going to bother reading much of the posts to this thread because I have seen this discussion many times before. I mix thru a compressor from the beginning. And the best way I can explain why is by quoting Mixerman from another forum. This pretty much sums it up for me. He said:

"I'll never understand why anyone would recommend NOT using 2-bus compression on anything other than Classical records and perhaps some straight ahead jazz.

If a mixer delivers a mix that is in need of compression AFTER it's completed, then what has he delivered? An approximation of what the mix will end up like after mastering. I make this statement based on the following fact: 2-BUS COMPRESSION CHANGES INTERNAL BALANCES IN YOUR MIX.

So, if this mixer spent any time at all on his incomplete and uncompressed mix, he's basically wasted everyone's time because compression after-the-fact is going to change your balances. Which begs the obvious question. What did he do? He certainly didn't MIX it.

Use 2-bus compression. It's a rule. And if you aren't happy with your 2-bus compressor, nut up and buy one that does the job properly."

[PhonoquO]

Originally Posted by ryst

I'm not going to bother reading much of the posts to this thread because I have seen this discussion many times before. I mix thru a compressor from the beginning. And the best way I can explain why is by quoting Mixerman from another forum. This pretty much sums it up for me. He said:

"I'll never understand why anyone would recommend NOT using 2-bus compression on anything other than Classical records and perhaps some straight ahead jazz.

If a mixer delivers a mix that is in need of compression AFTER it's completed, then what has he delivered? An approximation of what the mix will end up like after mastering. I make this statement based on the following fact: 2-BUS COMPRESSION CHANGES INTERNAL BALANCES IN YOUR MIX.

So, if this mixer spent any time at all on his incomplete and uncompressed mix, he's basically wasted everyone's time because compression after-the-fact is going to change your balances. Which begs the obvious question. What did he do? He certainly didn't MIX it.

Use 2-bus compression. It's a rule. And if you aren't happy with your 2-bus compressor, nut up and buy one that does the job properly."

From my experience, this makes perfect sense. As mastering is such an important stage, how can u not have a feel for what processing will do to your mix? mastered stems would be another matter though/

[ryst]

Originally Posted by PhonoquO

From my experience, this makes perfect sense. As mastering is such an important stage, how can u not have a feel for what processing will do to your mix? mastered stems would be another matter though/

I think giving stems to the mastering engineer is another way of saying, "hey, I give up....can you get the levels right and finish this for me"

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying about stems.

[PhonoquO]

Originally Posted by ryst

I think giving stems to the mastering engineer is another way of saying, "hey, I give up....can you get the levels right and finish this for me"

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying about stems.

naw, i was talking about mastering your stems yourself, leaving nothing on the 2 bus, before the record goes off to be mastered

[HoPMiX]

you think? I used bob katz once. he requested stems. he wrote the book on mastering. really he did..

[ryst]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

you think? I used bob katz once. he requested stems. he wrote the book on mastering. really he did..

A lot of professional mastering engineers prefer that the mixing engineer actually mix the song completely. It can open up a can of worms that a lot of mastering engineers don't want to deal with.

Just because Bob Katz IS the shiite, doesn't mean that his preference should be the preference of everyone else. Everyone is different.

[HoPMiX]

well just to clarify.
I didnt like it..
had it remastered.

I didnt even mix it.
Joey and slavic at FMG did.
The funny thing is we were discussing it during the mix and said who should master this, sterling.. we always use them... hmm... big bass... nah... oooh ooh bob katz lets try that....
we were like kids at x mas waiting to get that back.
It was loud as hell.... but he forgot to send it back with the bass..
but much respect to bob. i love his book.

[Mixerman]

Originally Posted by HoPMiX

you think? I used bob katz once. he requested stems. he wrote the book on mastering. really he did..

Any asswipe can write a book. Just look at me.

Stems are for movies, so the remixers can deal with balances differently depending on the audio that goes over it. I said it to Bob Katz directly: Any mastering engineer that requests stems is a guy that wishes he was a mixer.

If you can't mix it yourself, hire someone who can, but whatever your do, never send your mixing work to a mastering engineer. They're generally clueless about achieving emotional impact.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by Mixerman

Any mastering engineer that requests stems is a guy that wishes he was a mixer.

If you can't mix it yourself, hire someone who can, but whatever your do, never send your mixing work to a mastering engineer. They're generally clueless about achieving emotional impact.

LOL! I just had this happen to me. A mastering engineer (with great credits) told me that he required stems in order to take the project, and so I went to a different ME instead.

Not on my shift!

[ryst]

Originally Posted by Mixerman

Any asswipe can write a book. Just look at me.

Stems are for movies, so the remixers can deal with balances differently depending on the audio that goes over it. I said it to Bob Katz directly: Any mastering engineer that requests stems is a guy that wishes he was a mixer.

If you can't mix it yourself, hire someone who can, but whatever your do, never send your mixing work to a mastering engineer. They're generally clueless about achieving emotional impact.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Thank you, Mr. Mixerman. You saved me from having to quote you again.

[TANK]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

When I was still learnin and gettin my skills up, I was mixing a HipHop album at Judgement in PHL. It was an ssl 4k. Joe 'tha butcha' Niccolo walks in the room, listens for a second, then CRANKS (I mean CRANKS) the bus compressor...listens for a second...tweaks it...and turns to me and says, 'Now finish the mix'.
The mixes came out slammin...
How can you NOT use a comp on the 2 if its HipHop?

Hi at all, hi Stitch , can you tell more about the settings that Joe have used ?

[Filthrill]

Originally Posted by RIZ Records

When mixing hip-hop, is it better to mix through a 2 buss compressor or slap it on the 2 buss after your mix is finished to add the glue, and finished "record" sound? Do any of your guys know how current engineers who mix hip-hop for major lables do it?

Im going to pick up a Alan Smart C1 for mixing and for the 2 buss, but if its best to mix through it, then if i wanted to compress just a kick seperately while mixing, would i need two C1's?


Thx in advance.

Just my 2 cents. I usually slap on 2 buss compression when I get the drums & bass working together. After comp'ing & EQ those tracks, & adding some basic drum room reverb, snare plate (if needed-sometimes "raw" Hip Hop sounds better w/o this), whatever else makes them sound better. This way you don't influence your mix too soon w/ the 2 buss compression sound but also you don't get the startling surprise when slapping it on at the very end & have to maybe change some track levels, etc. I find this is usually a good place to put it on because it's kind of at the middle of the road for the mix. I've mixed a lot of Hip Hop, Rock, Spanish Rock, Blues, & other styles, & this always works for me because I feel that the drums & bass (or in Hip Hop sometimes a low tone or sample of some kind) are the backbone of the song.

As far as what to do to individual tracks, that's fair game. Use whatever enhances them & makes them sound great. Of course compression, EQ, & effects. I agree w/ Starski saying that you can print your compression from the same compressor that you'll end up using on the 2 buss. I do this all the time. You can always tweak it more in the computer w/ plug-ins. So you can do that early on to get some good outboard analog compression flavor on your kick, bass, & whatever other tracks you think might benefit from that. Just save your original tracks you started out w/ in case you don't like what you did & have to redo.

I'd sum it up by saying that you can try putting the 2 buss comp on when the mix is around 1/2 to 3/4 of the way done but just like everyone would agree, this is subjective & I sometimes try it sooner or later & have had great results w/ all of them. I know quite a few other engineers that prefer the method above. Sometimes I'll even wait until I blend the guitars & any keys or samples into the mix & just before adding the vocals I'll put 2 buss comp on & the balances still are good. Again, by no means would I say this is the only way. The comp settings vary for me too. Depends on the song. Sometimes I want more overall punch for the song so I try to set it to get that result but sometimes I might want something different like a setting that barely effects the mix as a whole.

BTW--I have an API 2500 for my 2 buss. I chose this because it has the ability to sound "old" (feedback style comps) or "new" (like SSL or Alan Smart). It's a lot of bang for your buck w/o having to collect multiple compressors. I'm sure the Alan Smart comp is amazing though & I'm sure I'd use it if I owned one. I mostly use the "new" setting on my API anyway! Hope this long rant was useful.

[5150MP]

FWIW-
The mixerman's quote is the best advice you can get IMHO.
With the smashed mp3's being the main endpoint today you might want to consider mixing for that format if you want major label work.
Adding a touch of glue with the buss comp while mixing then smashing the mix will tell you where you're at. Mixing any other way today will lead to unhappy customers because you are not making mixing decisions for the end result, you are just guessing what it will sound like finished.

I know this may sound harsh but are you in the past or the future. Are you after old money or new money?
Past was all about dynamics and openness in the music.
Future is all about size, loudness and smashed to hell and back.

Have fun choosing.

[Methlab]

I mix with a limiter chain on now. It really helps a lot. I never come close to peaking a mix anymore either. Helps you keep your levels in check.

[czarthp]

from what I've been told you should compress on the mix bus as you mix, not after

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by ryst

I'm not going to bother reading much of the posts to this thread because I have seen this discussion many times before. I mix thru a compressor from the beginning. And the best way I can explain why is by quoting Mixerman from another forum. This pretty much sums it up for me. He said:

"I'll never understand why anyone would recommend NOT using 2-bus compression on anything other than Classical records and perhaps some straight ahead jazz.

If a mixer delivers a mix that is in need of compression AFTER it's completed, then what has he delivered? An approximation of what the mix will end up like after mastering. I make this statement based on the following fact: 2-BUS COMPRESSION CHANGES INTERNAL BALANCES IN YOUR MIX.

So, if this mixer spent any time at all on his incomplete and uncompressed mix, he's basically wasted everyone's time because compression after-the-fact is going to change your balances. Which begs the obvious question. What did he do? He certainly didn't MIX it.

Use 2-bus compression. It's a rule. And if you aren't happy with your 2-bus compressor, nut up and buy one that does the job properly."

I take it that you use compression for tracking ? You got to on many things such as vocals, bass, kick, snare etc. So we all compress while tracking or 2 buss or both.

There is no way out unless you have a 2 inch machine....haha

[ampwax]

API 2500 hundred on the 2 buss at the beginning here. 10:1, old mode, soft knee, release to tempo, attack for snare snap (usually .3ms), manual gain till RMS is -20 or -18, shaving 2 to 3 dB. Be dirty with that unit. It loves it. Far less pumpy than the C2, unless you want that, different animal. Thanks Paul for your suggestion on how to get the most out of the 2500. I was being WAY too nice to it when I first got it. Forget that "just tickle the needle at 2:1 BS"

[AllAboutTone]

I really did like the 2500 but the color was to tricky, could depend on what I was hearing, Otherwise its a killer machine, little to focused and less width for my taste but it was good in all other areas, C2 has much more width even in stereo mode.