AM I GOING TO HAVE TO DITCH PRO TOOLS??

[STARSKI]

So i just got the UAD-1 card, well 2 of them actually, and installed everything, got a session that i recorded cleaned up and ready to mix, started the mix and saw what a pain it is using the delay comp plugins. Ok i knew i was going to have to do this before i bought this but now i am seeing how it impedes my workflow. I'm sure i can get used to it and get better and faster at doing it but at the same time i don't like extra things getting in the way when i'm mixing. So now what? Do i find another software program that will work with my digi 002? Like Logic, DP, or Cubase?? Or do i take the plunge and scrape up enough chips to get an HD1 system? I really don't need that much extra processing power so i'm sure an hd1 will be fine. The extra track count of another program or hd would be nice but i don't use a million tracks. What do you guys think?

[El Fatso]

hmmm tough call. go with the hd rig IF it really is worth the money for the work you do. as long as you will be able to make enough money off it to payback the cost of buying the system. remember its not just the cards its the interfaces also. it would be a cheaper route to go with a different software. but if you arent too familiar with anything else/you have used pro tools for so long, its gonna be a pain in the ass getting used to the new software/quick keys/operation. although the plus is you can replace the 002 with something much better when you get the money. i couldnt live with out pro tools but i hate digidesign for how limited LE is and how expensive HD is.

[STARSKI]

i don't really make money off my studio, i do some recording and mixing for a select few, but mostly use it for my record label. so the making money back thing is not really going to happen much.i do however need to be able to do mixes with the least amount of problems. if i did get an hd system i would get the hd1 with a 96 io since i usually only track 2 tracks at a time thru my neve and i would still use my ua 2192 convertors....

[BigAl]

It depends....
If you work with alot of wave files and you know PT very well, you might want to consider the HD system if the money is there. Check this out from Lynn...> http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=1541

If you produce alot and your money is tight, get Logic Pro and you'll never look back.

[AlexLakis]

ALT-H.

1024.

Done.

[azwun25]

i really don't think the cost of the HD1 and 96 I/O is warranted if you're still gonna use your 2192...i would lean more towards a platform change. Any of the major sequencers will work with the 002. if you're in the indie label business, low over-head is the name of the game. Just my $.02

[TonyBelmont]

DO NOT BUY AN HD SYSTEM!

[STARSKI]

why is everybody so anti hd? whats going on?

[demonfuzz]

nah man, upgrade to PT HD? man thats a lot of loot just to get around this issue.
I find it lame that they can't fix something like this in PT LE.
My hunch is they won't ever, so that you will eventually give in & upgrade to HD.

It is definitley a pain, but you can get used to it.
I now prefer to group things into Aux channels & apply UAD plugs there.

I end up using it mainly on your 2buss when doing ITB mixes, then it becomes less of an issue there.
The money you'd spend on an HD setup you could get some outboard & run thru hardware instead of plugs period.

Now that I've done some projects on PT, I am becoming quite unsatisfied with it.
I gotta make it work though as I aint blowing more loot on a recording system that should work as is.

If I did switch it'd prolly be to a hard disk recorder like an old Akai Dr or a an HDr, I like the editing & flexibility of a PC, but I can do alot with just Soundforge & it *never* crashes on me plus the UAD plugs work there with no need or the VST wrapper thingy.
Since I mostly 2-track these days anyways PT is sometimes more trouble than it's worth.

Have you tried the Neve plug for the UAD?
I liked it better than the URS version.
I hear the Precision plugs on the UAD are top notch but they were over my head so I never messed with them.
I only really use the Pultec, La2a & 1176.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by STARSKI

why is everybody so anti hd? whats going on?

The need for external DSP processing in music production has become unnecessary.

Why spend thousands of dollars on DSP cards, when you don't need more processing power?

I just bought a new Mac Pro and can run over 150 Waves SSL Channels with no problems. You would need to buy at least 10 HD Accel process cards to get that kind of power.... That would cost about $30-40k, not including the audio interfaces, etc..

I can only recommend PT HD if you are running a commercial studio or need that format for file sharing/ plugin compatibility.

If I were in your situation, I would look at some of the other native soluions like Logic, Cubase, etc. They will all work with your 002....

I don't know if the ADC includes UAD cards in any of those programs, so that would be something you might want to look into, though.

[cynic one]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

The need for external DSP processing in music production has become unnecessary.

Why spend thousands of dollars on DSP cards, when you don't need more processing power?

I just bought a new Mac Pro and can run over 150 Waves SSL Channels with no problems. You would need to buy at least 10 HD Accel process cards to get that kind of power.... That would cost about $30-40k, not including the audio interfaces, etc..

I can only recommend PT HD if you are running a commercial studio or need that format for file sharing/ plugin compatibility.

If I were in your situation, I would look at some of the other native soluions like Logic, Cubase, etc. They will all work with your 002....

I don't know if the ADC includes UAD cards in any of those programs, so that would be something you might want to look into, though.

SX automatically delay compensates............

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by cynic

SX automatically delay compensates............

Logic does too, but I'm not sure if that includes the UAD cards, though... In other words, is there still latency involved with the UAD cards....?

[cynic one]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Logic does too, but I'm not sure if that includes the UAD cards, though... In other words, is there still latency involved with the UAD cards....?

yes, and it compensates for it properly. i use my UAD with sx3 all the time...never had to use a delay comp plugin - whereas when using something like FL studio i have to use the delay comp plugins.

i think the auto-delay compensation was actually a major selling point of sx3

[STARSKI]

but what program will give me the work flow that i like in pro tools? honestly it took me a while to even switch over to pro tools from recording on adats and then a mackie mdr with my mixer. but my quality has improved because of it, now im used to using pro tools and like that it is a standard but this issue is annoying!! plus for some reason when i was using the uad tonight i kept getting a buffer problem and it was using 3/4 of my cpu with out any native plugins on??? what is going on??

[MPCSlutz]

Tony,

This is the exact same dilemna I am dealing with right now. I own a Protools HD Accel 2 system with a 192 interface, running on a G5 Dual 2. When the new Mac Pros came out, the ridiculous processing power combined with the PCI-E format (making it expensive for me to upgrade my HD cards should I decide to upgrade the Mac in the future) got me curious about my options.

I am definitely not an engineer and do not run a commercial studio. The reasons I have a HD system are mainly because of the 192 interface (I want at least two 8-channel ADAT inputs and the digi002 only has one) and the unlimited track count. Of course the TDM plugins are nice, but are not essential for me to have, especially with the power of these new Mac Pros. Plus, the Music Production Toolkit gets me to 48 stereo tracks which should be sufficient, so now the main reason for me to have a HD system is....an extra 8-channel Adat input???

So Im guessing that my current system (HD Accel 2 system,192 interface with digital expansion, Midi IO) is worth about 9Gs or so. That seems like a lot of money to be spending on an extra Adat input and being able to use a handful of TDM plugins...The obvious solution seems to be sucking it up and buying a Digi002, finding a workaround for the ADAT problem, and buying a Mac Pro to run all the plugins I want natively. Also, I may not need to have a seperate Gigastudio PC due to the processing power/hard drive RAID of the Mac Pro, which means I wont need that extra Adat input...

Am I overlooking anything? Can you guys see any reason for me to stick with the HD Accel system vs going to LE? Tony, are you running a Digi002? If I sell my system at about 9k, and spend about 5k on a Mac Pro/Digi02, that gives me about 4k to spend on other gear...Thanks for any advice.

[prismtheory]

If I may speak my opinion. Pro Tools LE would drive me up the freaking wall with the delay compensation stuff. I have to use an old mix rig sometimes...and even THAT drives me up the wall. Pro Tools HD is definitely a good sounding system. Much more headroom than a native based system. If you are really serious about upgrading I would probably get some great converters, a digital interface, and perhaps Cubase or Nuendo. I used Nuendo since it was version 1 and I thought that it was great. Plus, I think UAD-1 cards DO sounds really good. I had one and I miss that you can't use it with Pro Tools HD. It will physically work, but it throws everything out of phase so bad that I couldn't even figure it out.

Another thing to consider... Pro Tools HD1 is probably not going to be enough power for you. The core card which would be the only card you would get isn't really that powerful, considering a reverb can take up a whole chip on and HD card and 50% of an accel. I know that the Eventide reverb took up one whole chip on my HD Accel2 rig. Of course you can still use rtas stuff and use the computer, but you lose headroom in my opinion. If you do go HD...get ready to shell out massive cash. Nothing is cheap and while I love pro tools I kind of regret not just beefing up my nuendo rig. I used to use 2 Tascam DM24s cascaded into 2 MOTU 2408 MkIIIs into Nuendo. I sold all of it and bought HD. Now there's no turning back.

[STARSKI]

i have a good front end right now, 2 neve 1290s, 2-1176, tubetech cl1b, 2 avedis e15s, cranesong ibis eq, and a ua 2192 convertor. i don't really need to record more than 2 tracks at once since i do rap and r&b and i track my beats 2 tracks at a time and vocals 1 at a time. so the uad card doesn't work with protools hd?? i thought it was suppose to be fine. maybe they fixed it in pt 7? i was thinking i could use those my rtas plugs and a bit of hd juice and if needed a bit more picking up another used hd card.... bad idea?

[azwun25]

Nuendo + UAD-1= no latency!

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

The need for external DSP processing in music production has become unnecessary.

Why spend thousands of dollars on DSP cards, when you don't need more processing power?

I just bought a new Mac Pro and can run over 150 Waves SSL Channels with no problems. You would need to buy at least 10 HD Accel process cards to get that kind of power.... That would cost about $30-40k, not including the audio interfaces, etc..

I can only recommend PT HD if you are running a commercial studio or need that format for file sharing/ plugin compatibility.

If I were in your situation, I would look at some of the other native soluions like Logic, Cubase, etc. They will all work with your 002....

I second all of this! It's like nothing else need to be said.

I have A dual G5 with Logic Pro, and a ton of plug-ins is no problem at all. So I guest A Mac Pro is a producer's dream. The more that I think about it, it does make sense to just use something like Cubase, Nuendo or Logic. $7,000 and up for a HD system? Humm...times change now. A Mac Pro with 150 Waves SSL channel speaks for itself. That's very impressive.

--Al

[wiz1der]

Pro Tools systems will not be worth anything in 3-5 years.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by MPCSlutz

Am I overlooking anything? Can you guys see any reason for me to stick with the HD Accel system vs going to LE? Tony, are you running a Digi002? If I sell my system at about 9k, and spend about 5k on a Mac Pro/Digi02, that gives me about 4k to spend on other gear...Thanks for any advice.

It's tough to say not knowing the way you work, etc. But, I sold my HD system a couple of years ago and "downgraded" to a 002. The only thing I really missed was the plugins. I'm currently running a 002 at one of my studios in case I have to make PT sessions for other engineers to work with.

The Mac Pro & 002 shouldn't cost you much more than about $3500, unless you added some additional hard drives. Buy those from new egg or OWC, though. Apple rips you off on the hard drives.

You could take that extra $5000 and get a great vocal chain and a collection of plugins for your new system!

[Solar]

Originally Posted by STARSKI

but what program will give me the work flow that i like in pro tools? honestly it took me a while to even switch over to pro tools from recording on adats and then a mackie mdr with my mixer. but my quality has improved because of it, now im used to using pro tools and like that it is a standard but this issue is annoying!! plus for some reason when i was using the uad tonight i kept getting a buffer problem and it was using 3/4 of my cpu with out any native plugins on??? what is going on??

Hey Starks, i first must tell you that I SECOND "TONY's" suggestion to you. If u;'re not running a Big studio blabalbla.. do not bother going and upgrade for PT HD. It will simply be a WAIST ofr money when u look around what is happening with Computer Power Processing. Wich leads to simply be "smart". As for DAW that can or have the kind of WORKFLOW as PT, very simple but remember, it will take you some time also to get around any new DAw you will decide to go withright? Do not think that you go and take Logic in example and thats it , you will close your eyes and BINGO you will be in heaven.. Hell no!! U will need a little time and small work aroudn to get familiar, its liek every other thing..

So now lets talk about possible DAw that can give you the same flow and even more:

1- Cubase (espcially they are nwo coming with Cubase (sx) 4
2- Nuendo (same situation, Nuendo 4 will follow and it looks big time promising)
- SONAR (wich a lot forget about but its the TRUE DAw working in 64 bit and i would suggest you to take a LOOK at SONAR version 6, wich is simply Mind blowing: www.cakewalk.com)
3- Logic (great application, amazing, since Apple got their hands on it and since version 7, man this beast ROCKS)
4 & 5 - Samplitude or Sequoia (Simply one of the greates DAw existing even not manny people use it, but Sound quality wise, simply the software is Way beyond, just like Sonar and its way of editing and mixing its simply wonderfull, u need to get around it of course

And more and more and more, there is REAPER wich a very nice software and not too expensive etc..e tc..

So in one word, all of them are GREEAT and its HOW you feel about them and check it for yourelf and be your own judge!! thats the only way for your to find out.

p.s hope that we're not gonna start another thread about PT against all these great DAW. Lets simply give some tips but not make this a WAR against PT because we all know PT is a GREAT TOOL as all others that we all use.

Oh i Forgot.. there is also SAW STUDIO, amazing application but not sure that it gets close to PT, its Different but one of the Greates Engine in DAW...

So good luck buddy and keep us update.

So for me, if you're in MAC, go LOGIC (simple), if you're on PC, go Nuendo/Cubase or Sonar wich i suggest you to take a look or finally Samplitude or Sequoi (www.samplitude.com

Later

hope this help!!

[Solar]

all of those DAw i mentioned worked well with UAD cards.. nolatency balbalablabla.. good luck now

[MPCSlutz]

Thanks for the advice Tony..i take it you have no problems with the sound quality of the digi002 interface vs the 192?

[STARSKI]

ok so...... i put some money down on a new mac pro today. so im going to be getting that and either sticking with LE or changing software. i guess im going to wait on getting an HD system... so i got a dual 2.6 dual core intel coming!!! i guess it was time to upgrade the comp and i didn't want to face it... but im glad i waited for the intels....

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by STARSKI

ok so...... i put some money down on a new mac pro today. so im going to be getting that and either sticking with LE or changing software. i guess im going to wait on getting an HD system... so i got a dual 2.6 dual core intel coming!!! i guess it was time to upgrade the comp and i didn't want to face it... but im glad i waited for the intels....

You'll want to upgrade the RAM, because I did have some RAM issues with my tests. 3GB should be sufficient, and you can get that from OWC, etc for much less than Apple.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by MPCSlutz

Thanks for the advice Tony..i take it you have no problems with the sound quality of the digi002 interface vs the 192?

I didn't have any "problems"... I mean there's a difference, but not like using a different mic, etc. We aren't recording classical music, those converters are decent enough for hip hop.

[STARSKI]

what about headroom in protools hd compared to le? can you tell any difference? im not concerened about convertors etc since i use outboard ones anyways...

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by STARSKI

what about headroom in protools hd compared to le? can you tell any difference? im not concerened about convertors etc since i use outboard ones anyways...

I didn't notice any difference... but, that doesn't mean there isn't any.

[STARSKI]

well if you didn't notice the difference then obviously..... jus kiddin... anyways hope the mac pro works out good