Engineering tips for Ghostface style tracks

[The Marrvel]

I'm about to mix a project that consists of very minimalist Ghostface style production. Often times, the sessions have no more than 5-6 tracks. They usually consist of a looped drumbreak, a chopped musical sample, a bassline, and the vocals.

Any tips for mixing this type of music? I usually will eq the drumloop and send it to a compressed group channel with the bass. A stereo comp usually makes everything else gel together but that's about all I do. Has anyone ever seen a session like this? I'm especially interested to know how an engineer goes about making space for the vocal since the musical elements aren't really separated.

[beat you down]

i recall on some ghost tracks they just pull the vocal waaaaay up.

maybe you can measure/analyze the vocal and dip the entire beat where it overlaps? eq i mean.

[Peter Project]

I thought a Ghostface track was taking an entire song, and just rapping over it! That should only require 3 tracks, and a good lawyer.

[The Marrvel]

Originally Posted by Peter Project

I thought a Ghostface track was taking an entire song, and just rapping over it! That should only require 3 tracks, and a good lawyer.

lol, trust me, i think i have that particular type covered, besides the lawyer anyway.

I was talking more along the terms of the more developed sampled tracks.

[nickp]

Originally Posted by The Marrvel

lol, trust me, i think i have that particular type covered, besides the lawyer anyway.

I was talking more along the terms of the more developed sampled tracks.

Find a bunch of snippets that sound good together. BPM everything. Make them all one tempo/find ones with matching/near-mathing tempos. Paste. Lay down beats. Bam. And don't forget soul intros and saying "ayo" before everytrack and acting like you're in a conversation.

And be mad paranoid. That's the biggie.

[chester]

keep it simple! take some good vocals out of your rapper and keep your beats simple, kick, snare sample thats all!

ciao

chester

[The Marrvel]

thanks for the responses guys, but you're describing beat production and recording methods. I got that covered.

I only want to know mixing techniques for tracks like this after the vox are recorded (i.e. compression, eq, bussing, etc.)

I'm focusing on that type of rap in particular because in theory, mixing those NY drumbreak/sample records wouldn't be like mixing the 808/synth record with 16 separate tracks.

I only used Ghost as one example. How would someone go about mixing a Dilla record? There has to be more to it than riding the faders.

[demonfuzz]

Just run everything 2 track out of the MPC where applicable.

Run it into DI/PRE, EQ, Comps, Analog Channel, etc... before you hit the ProTools.

[ShaneFontane]

Wish I could give you something specific to work with, but I wanted to chime in and say "Hey everyone. Don't forget some of the dope songs he has worked on. Such as "Cherchez LaGhost."

[Relax]

Originally Posted by The Marrvel

I'm focusing on that type of rap in particular because in theory, mixing those NY drumbreak/sample records wouldn't be like mixing the 808/synth record with 16 separate tracks.

I only used Ghost as one example. How would someone go about mixing a Dilla record? There has to be more to it than riding the faders.

You really dont need to do much, a little eq/compression and fader riding and your done.

[King Tubby]

Cherchez LaGhost apart from the vocals, was a record loop (Studio One) chopped up no drums, keys or anything.

[ShaneFontane]

Originally Posted by King Tubby

Cherchez LaGhost apart from the vocals, was a record loop (Studio One) chopped up no drums, keys or anything.

still a dope song nonetheless, no?

[dolo72]

A freind of mine and old co production partner produced Shakey Dog on the last Ghost album. the f*****s at ***tery studios refused to let him track to the studers they had sitting there ????. Anyway here are some tips but every tune is different . Use stereo. You can Mid/side decode the music then bring the mid(centre) channel down which is where the vocals live. Also you can do this with the drums if they are seperate sounds you can use panning(hi hats percussion) to get a bit space around the centre. Classic eq on the music boost on shelves bass and treble and pull the mid around the vocl freq'(i only use analog eq cant speak for digital). Also Like has been said b4 the vocals are way up there(level) on ghostface tunes I think the mastering plays a big role in pulling the vocals down into the mix . I would also say pull of the compression b4 you got the relationship between music and vocals locked.
At the end of the day you must have got a usable balance for the MC's to spit in the first place - they must have been hearing the music and the drums and themselves enough to drop the rhymes so you done it already.

[boodah]

What I've done in the past was create two music tracks. Run it through filters. LP on one and a hi pass on the other. If done right, you have a hole in the middle where the vocals will lay. Use an analyzer to see what frequencies the vocals lay in. Then set the hole in the music track and the vocals should fit nicely.

[The Marrvel]

Thanks a bunch fellas! These sound like great techniques in theory. I have a couple of questions though...

Originally Posted by dolo72

Use stereo. You can Mid/side decode the music then bring the mid(centre) channel down which is where the vocals live.

1. How would this differ from simply performing a single wide mid frequency cut with eq on a single channel?

Originally Posted by boodah

What I've done in the past was create two music tracks. Run it through filters. LP on one and a hi pass on the other. If done right, you have a hole in the middle where the vocals will lay. Use an analyzer to see what frequencies the vocals lay in. Then set the hole in the music track and the vocals should fit nicely.

2. Wouldn't this lowpass/highpass technique totally eliminate a part of the mid frequencies all together?

3. Are the drums included in this mid frequency cut?

[streetbeats]

1. Im pretty sure dolo is not talking about mid frequencies there, but creating space in the panoramic centre...particularly on the track(s) with the 'music' on. Kicks and snares of course better off down the centre...

2. Yes, in theory, but you have control of just how much you eliminate, and of course you dont have to apply this to all tracks. It may be effective on a subset of the tracks. Also, depending on the processing you are doing, watch for phase issues. Personally, Im not a great fan of doing this.


3. As above....


Another thing you could try, depending on the complexity of the drums, and how much space they have, is to chop them, so you have separate channels for kick, snare and hat for example. This becomes far more difficult, (and pretty much ineffective) when you have little space between hits, for example when lots of ride cymbals are used.

[Samplecraze]

Originally Posted by Peter Project

I thought a Ghostface track was taking an entire song, and just rapping over it! That should only require 3 tracks, and a good lawyer.

Pissing myseld on the floor here, coffee all over lap, nuts roasted.

[Samplecraze]

Originally Posted by The Marrvel

I'm about to mix a project that consists of very minimalist Ghostface style production. Often times, the sessions have no more than 5-6 tracks. They usually consist of a looped drumbreak, a chopped musical sample, a bassline, and the vocals.

Any tips for mixing this type of music? I usually will eq the drumloop and send it to a compressed group channel with the bass. A stereo comp usually makes everything else gel together but that's about all I do. Has anyone ever seen a session like this? I'm especially interested to know how an engineer goes about making space for the vocal since the musical elements aren't really separated.

The art of minimalistic mixing (hey, there's a new term) is all about working the vocals to envelope the mix.
Seperation of the drum elements and the bass are crucial as the low to mid frequencies need to be sensible covered.

The vocals do the rest.

Small melodic lines that burst in and out of the song are also crucial to keep the minimalism varied.

If you listen to Ghostface and Ne-Yo's new track, you'll hear a lot of melodic vocal layers going on. It keeps the listener interested.

The perception of space is avhieved through good use of EQ and compression, but not in the susual 'smack the channel' sense.

Compression, particularly parallel compression, is a great seperation and defining tool and is used to good effect on minimalistic tracks.

[dolo72]

Streetbeats got it right. If you make a split of your music to three channels left, mid(centre), right then you pan accordingly, left pan left - mid in the middle and right pan right according to how much width you want. Now you can pulldown the mid(centre) channel and you got more space for the vocal but you can still hear the music. Its using the extra headroom you can get with stereo to prioritise the important impact things like drums and vocals in the middle while the music content can still be heard.

Hope its a bit clearer . I got this from my other job as a sound recordist/sometime sound designer. I think alot of mastering cats use it.

Also agree chop your drums you will get more punch than you ever would with a loop and with alot less eq and compression.

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by dolo72

A freind of mine and old co production partner produced Shakey Dog on the last Ghost album.

Dolo, I just read this, talking about LP - so Im guessing your the Dolo that knows Juice ?

I run Pepa with him

[dolo72]

Ahhh small world - actually you should check him I brought him in on some new science last weekend. Ask him when his new sound is gonna be ready?

Well proably meet soon anyway, in the middle of finishing some beats sorta for that MC D album your releasing possibly and a few other things.

Actually im gonna call him now - is streetbeats your production name ???

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by dolo72

Ahhh small world - actually you should check him I brought him in on some new science last weekend. Ask him when his new sound is gonna be ready?

Well proably meet soon anyway, in the middle of finishing some beats sorta for that MC D album your releasing possibly and a few other things.

Actually im gonna call him now - is streetbeats your production name ???

Yes small world indeed Are you talking about the DI boxes ? Ive been on that for tracking my MPC for a long while now I only have a couple of channels though, on some Neve clone pre's with DI input.

Subvert is the hip hop production name (though Im more of an engineer than a beatmaker).
Streetbeats is one of the drum and bass labels that I used to run; you may remember it..

Yeh, be good to link man....

[dolo72]

Yeah DI is the one those OEP's are sick though crazy cheap and much more character than alot of other iron I used. Juice should be able to make 8 channels for less than £120.

Anyway thread hijack I left a message on juices phone will organise a hook up, soon

Peace - Ratu Lisala Salagi Turagulevu Dolo - (Bua)

[azwun25]

Originally Posted by boodah

What I've done in the past was create two music tracks. Run it through filters. LP on one and a hi pass on the other. If done right, you have a hole in the middle where the vocals will lay. Use an analyzer to see what frequencies the vocals lay in. Then set the hole in the music track and the vocals should fit nicely.

wow..it creates a hole alright...this is a really bad idea..cease and desist this practicetutt

[boodah]

Originally Posted by azwun25

wow..it creates a hole alright...this is a really bad idea..cease and desist this practicetutt

I don't think so. I use Antares Filter where i can line up filters in parallel or in series. To do this, I use 1- 2pole LPF and 1 2 pole HPF. and if you do it carefully you don't create a gaping hole. I prefer this method rather than using a notch- filter, because there's an overlap, where you can atleast mediate the amount of a drop out that's there. Maybe, I didn't explain it fully, but don't knock me me for what works for what I'm looking for.

I don't think, we're on this site to break down each other, but more so to learn from each and everyone.