Science of Kick & Snare

[Zacchino]

I just spent a whole night to get the right kick and the right snare, sounding exactly as I wanted, both in the monitors and in the headphones (which is always the real issue for my part)...

Damnit, this sh*t is a real science, I realized that you had to stay focused on what you want in each steps, so you do not wake up in the morning with a "light" beat that just sounds good on your speakers at a certain volume.

I posted this cuz I just wanted to know... Am I the only one chaining like 40 eqs (I love eqs) to get a sound tight and juicy?
Or maybe that I missed something easier (don't tell me UAD-1e, I hate myself for not having one of these candies in my box).

I don't use comps at all, except tube compressors to get my kicks more rusty (with some valve distortion), and my snares more snappy.

In any ways, I'm happy I got the sound I wanted... But what a crusade...

[beat you down]

what do you mean by 'the right kick and the right snare' ?

are you trying to shape drums you picked so they fit your song better?

or are you creating new drums you want to use later on?

if it's the first, you might'v picked drums that just don't complement the song, try some other kits, you might not need like 40 eq's and a whole day of work trying to make them work.

if it's the latter, you just go i'd say.

[tomdarude]

geezzz ??

what do you start with??

I´d say when you start with whatever....
a sample
a real recording
a drumsynth/soundmodule

you should tweak/search/combine the source to be almost 80-90% there!!!!

from there on GOOD tools are really helpfull...URS/UAD/SSL Duende EQ´s & comps can bring you much FASTER to a satisfying result than a stock Logic/Cubase plugin!!
a Distressor & a nice analog EQ (e.g. Daking,Chandler etc) is even FASTER, easier, better

but always start with a good SOURCE !

cheers tom

[brian_delizza]

40 EQs? Were you trying to turn a mosquito fart into a kick drum?

In all seriousness though, do what you have to do to get something to sound the way you want it. Who cares if you have to boost or cut lots of frequencies to get there.

40 EQs is a lot though. Were you using each for just minor adjustments, or are you trying to boost the signal 300 db?

You may just want to invest in some quality sound libraries. I know I have more kicks and snares than I know what to do with, and it makes it easier trying to find that "one" thats up in your head.

[RaGe]

Your source material bro.
That's 95% of the battle.



R

[Zacchino]

I guess I'm missing some source materials, and/or some good Chandler EQ, EL Distressor, and UAD hardwares...

Yet I counted this morning, it was 16 EQ for what I call the "Mid" Kick layer, 5 or 4, for the "Mid-Low" Kick layer and one or two for the bottom kick layer .

I'm just getting very good at it, but also very tired at tweaking my Waves REQ4 (love'em, so precise !). And yes, this is for minor fixes, and what I call "odd harmonics" adjustments... And Bassdrum harmonics tuning also...

Which is exhausting... Now I always end up with the sound I want (even if the kick is the hardest material to get light but punchy and present in a mix, or loud and distorted but subtle...).

I always begin this way :
First, I find the good snare. Snares are easy to find out.
I have tons of libraries of snares (bought Sample CDs, from old ASR Libraries -remember UniversalSoundBank floppy disks ?-, free downloaded stuff, all classified by type). But kicks... guys, Kicks is the hardest part to get right for me. As we've already discussed, I'm the "layering" kind of guy. But I also know when *NOT* to layer, when the sound is just good as it is.

But in any cases, I've rarely ended up with 1 kick found anywhere on my hard drive left "just as it is". They're always lowfi in some ways, or full of reverb (if sampled), or too "cold" (if from CD Sampler).

In any ways, I basically always end up with equing the hell out of my kicks and snare sound, so they sound perfect, and I don't have to touch'em at all for the whole song.

So that the drum loop don't get "unflavored" but "colored", and yet, kind of "tuned" to the song, so it doesn't get too repetitive, and the least "ear-fatigue" possible.

You get me so far ?

Well, I understand you guys must have chosen the lightspeed path, and I hope I'll follow you guys sooner or later. But I'm sure that even with all this candy hardware, I'll for sure tweak at least the "odd harmonics" of my drums, or they "punchiness" (yeah you know it, EQ adds dynamics).


I thing my goal is to get my drums sound the most *wide* as possible, even if it's a "telephone eq'ed" snare, it has to be very stereo, reverbered with a thin plate, and LOUD but airy... This is the quality of sound I am looking for... I'm sure we all are.

Don't tell me you always find the good Snare/Kick couple for the track ?

[fn86]

i think finding the right drums for the tracks is a very very very percentage part of the whole process of beatmaking

[azwun25]

40 eq's? eq plugins? find the right sounds or close to it...all those plugs and all that degradation is unnecessary

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by Zacchino

But kicks... guys, Kicks is the hardest part to get right for me..

i'm still not sure...

do you mean, you can't get your kicks to stand out in the mix or you don't like the sound of the kicks in your library?

[Zacchino]

I don't like the sound of the kicks in my libraries... They're too "contained".
But I agree with Fn86

[Ol' Betsey]

Whoa...

40 EQ's?

Talk about 'fixing it in the mix" !!!!



R.

P.S. Sorry for not helping but the title interested me. I'd say definitely look at your source though. Then again I might just say **** it and go with what you got. You never know, someone might just turn around and say your kick/snare sounds are totally rockin' and pay you to mix their stuff too. Ain't no wasted time in finding YOUR sound.

[beat you down]

all i'm saying, before you spend ages tweaking on forehand, be aware of the fact that soloed kicks and snares are nothing like kicks and snares in a mix. ofcourse you need to be picky but i wouldn't spend like a day tweaking a kick solo, once in the mix is another story ofcourse.

[WideawakE]

you need an MPC 60 haha

if I had to use 40 EQ's plugin's and whatever else you use, I would never make music

get a drum set and an SM58 or an original TR-808

[Zacchino]

I totally agree with you BYD, that's why I strat equing soloed drums, and then I eq again once in the whole mix.

BTW, I've never liked the sound of the 808 nor the 909. I only like what Dre, Daft Punk, and Storch did with it (theyre the only guys who knew how to mix it).

It's so annoying to see that at least 50% of the album are made with these. It's too easy to follow this hype.

Timbo and Neptunes' drum sound are much more interesting imo...

[samueltournan]

Yes, you're rignt, they've got those amazing overcompressed acoustic kicks in Neptunes beats, I wonder how they achieve such a sound (lots of dynamics, yet very loud)...

Oh, and I agree about the URS compressors plug-ins, they're really good (even compared to the UAD ones). Waves SSL bundle is good too, but so expensive it would be smarter to gather a few bucks more and buy a Duende

[GoJiRa 3000]

Originally Posted by Zacchino

I totally agree with you BYD, that's why I strat equing soloed drums, and then I eq again once in the whole mix.

BTW, I've never liked the sound of the 808 nor the 909. I only like what Dre, Daft Punk, and Storch did with it (theyre the only guys who knew how to mix it).

It's so annoying to see that at least 50% of the album are made with these. It's too easy to follow this hype.

Timbo and Neptunes' drum sound are much more interesting imo...

909 and a 808 or 606 is always good to have around for layering, beef up, ad crack or sizzle..I use my 808 on half my drums..specially snare, claps and hats to give it a little xtra and most of the time u wont notice it..anyways i always start out with whatever kick, snare etc, make the track flow the way i want it and then start to mess with the drums again..ofcource staring out with a really musical drum prg that is programmed wel,l can be really inspiring..using tooo much time on a kit is a waste of time imo..unless u make rock and that was that one take u got..just change the sounds mate..it really also depends on wich app u use.I prefer battery 2 or my mpc..

[WideawakE]

exactly what I was meaning, an 808 kick or similar heavy bass/hip hop type kick layered properly with a nicely sampled drum from a break is a beautiful thing to my ears

[blayz2002]

I'm hoping with 40 eq's and hours getting the "perfect kick" you got some hot sounding if not unique drums tracks to your beats? I learn't like most of these guys say, get the source close first. Even still though do spend time on this but not too much befor I get rest of the sounds going expecially the bass, and I don't eq in solo, I eq to make sure each instrument's got it's space and is doing it's thing in the mix.

Be intrested to hear a sampe of something you've finished that's been through that process?

[khameln]

As far as Hip-Hop drums go, I've been finding that it's easy to start with *more* and then strip it down to less, than to start with less and try to keep mashing more and more different things together.

This means getting something that can take your regular sound (I'm assuming you have solid, but just not very exciting, sounds to start with), compress it if it's not already compressed (a lot of sample libs come pre-comped now), and add a lot of harmonic color and 'warmth' to it (be it a plugin, or some kind of outboard gear... this part of why the UAD and PSP stuff is so great). Then once you have this huge, fat sound, you can then take the pieces you want out of it and leave it as big or as small as you want.

This is far easier than trying to "create" warmth and excitement with eq. Better to take a sound that you've made a little *too* colorful with the right equipment (if you have the right stuff, this only takes careful adjusting of only 1 or 2 of knobs), and fix it so it sits where you want.

[Methlab]

If I spent that much time on getting drum sounds, I'd go crazy. Sounds like you need better sounds to me. I spend the most of time getting the filters set right, so the drums all attack together and sound like one kit. And that still doesnt take that long.....thats just me though.

[Tom Sigmond]

Seems like everybody here is getting his drums very fast compared to the thread starter.

Well, I'm in the same boat as he is.
If I have to tweak a whole day to get the right kick and bass, than so be it. Its not an exception. I think thats the way to go to get that hit song.
Its nice to get it right in no time but most of the time if you want to produce something that stands out of the average, you have to work your ace of.

An idea is born in half a day, hell, maybe half an hour.
But than to pruduce it good, you can be bussy for the next three weeks only for one track.

Producing good thing takes time and if you use 40 eq's to get there, who cares... .


gr. Tom

[STARSKI]

a couple suggestions. use hardware samplers like an mpc etc. i know people can get great sounds with virtual racks and everything but most pros are most likely to still use hardware. also your sound in the first place is going to make a big difference. if you grab a kick and like its sound but its wimpy your definitely going to have to layer it to make it sound good, sometimes finding the right sound to layer it with takes a while and it depends on what your bass sound is to make sure its not going to conflict. then when your tracking your sound it definitely helps to track thru good pres and if any dynamics. in general i track thru some eq and dynamics on the way into pro tools. so when im mixing i only have to do minor tweaks to make the sounds fit into the beat. i would also suggest if you are using layered sounds such as multiple kicks or snares to keep them on seperate tracks so you can adjust how they sit in the mix later. if you have them seperate you can also zoom in on the wave forms on the different tracks and see how they are in time with each other, sometimes you can slide one of the regions a bit to make them sound more in sync and they will have less cancellation. and my last suggestion is to dig in tha crates!!! its good to find your own unique sounds by digging into old school records. sample libraries are definitely cool and help lots but if you rely on them solely your sounds won't be very unique.....

[TTB]

Originally Posted by brian_delizza

40 EQs? Were you trying to turn a mosquito fart into a kick drum?

LMAO!!!

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Tom Sigmond

Seems like everybody here is getting his drums very fast compared to the thread starter.

Well, I'm in the same boat as he is.
If I have to tweak a whole day to get the right kick and bass, than so be it. Its not an exception. I think thats the way to go to get that hit song.
Its nice to get it right in no time but most of the time if you want to produce something that stands out of the average, you have to work your ace of.

An idea is born in half a day, hell, maybe half an hour.
But than to pruduce it good, you can be bussy for the next three weeks only for one track.

Producing good thing takes time and if you use 40 eq's to get there, who cares... .


gr. Tom

hmmm...so you are alluding that those of use who dont use 40 EQs and don't overthink this are not going to make "hits"?

Look, it goes back to the classic producers like Primo. Like he said, you got to have drum samples that match up.To do this, you simply need to find good drum breaks and take those drums and chop them. Put each different chopped break in a folder and you will have drums that are ALREADY matched up without any EQing. I then layer an 808 underneath to fill out the sound. Maybe I want a clap sound..ok, I ditch the snare from the break and put a clap in there instead. I then tune the clap to the original snare sample.

I'm sorry, but plenty of hits were and are made this way. Obviously from there, you can run your samples through tape, or tweak them out with distortion, but the basic drums will be there, and they will be nice and matched up.

[beat you down]

it's all just different approaches that can/might work if you know what you'r doing.

[Zacchino]

I totally agree with the little trick of layering 808 / 707 / 606 TR bassdrum, along with sample kick from a record. I also use to chain these layers into a Waves RComp (used as an expander), to tight up the whole thing.

You guys are right. I need more samples, or maybe more research time for the closest kick I want. Definitely important.

But don't get me wrong, I just chain up to "40" EQs (24 exactly), on certain sessions, when I want everything to be very tight and precise (so the bass guitar or the cellos that I use alot don't hide the kick).

I would really love to upload the kick and snare I was working on, but I don't have internet anymore at home (ISP issues, not my fault ^^).

Anyway, I think this thread brang up alot of tips. I've learnt alot so far !!! I'm really glad you guys are as consciencious as I am on these "music consumer's details"...

But hey... Nowdays, most of the people that listen to rap, know how to enjoy a good beat and say "hey, this snare is dope". Times have changes, and beatmakers are more than ever playing a critical role in making a "hit"...

For my part, I"m really enjoying how the kick & the snare sound in Scott Storch's "Give me That" (Chris Brown). The clap is simple, not even in stereo, but is so precisely "placed" that it sounds great on all speakers.

The bottom line is (what I've learnt) :
The more you know what you want, the more precise you get. The more precise you get, the better your sound will translate...

[Tom Sigmond]

Originally Posted by Methlab

hmmm...so you are alluding that those of use who dont use 40 EQs and don't overthink this are not going to make "hits"?

Nah... .

I'm with you that finding the right drums in the first place is the best start but if you need/use 40 eq's to make something sound right, why not.
If that leads you to the way you want your track to sound, just do it. (Hmmmm , I hope I don't get sued to use this onliner... )


gr. Tom

[Methlab]

"Tom, it's your asistant

You have a call from Nike Legal on line 1....something about gear and sluts???"

[s.d.finley]

You need more samples....I have literally 1000's of kicks and snares. I choose accordingly and tweak as needed.

Of course I can spends hours just browsing thru my sample libraries...

sdf