2 questions regarding kicks + bass...

[con?one]

in both cases, the ear's your best bet

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by beat you down

hello all,


recently i read about tuning kicks to a song's root... it's supposed to result in less bass clashes?

u do this cause 9 times outta 10 the kik tuned to the root is gonna sound best----and you can figure out the pitch best by listening to different pitches of the same kik, and trying to figure out what "notes" they are---its easier when you can hear multiple pitches of the kik.

[H-Rezz]

A $30 guitar tuner should do it if the ear thing isn't happening

[ozramidi]

this is an interesting thread, i've thought about the pitches for kicks and snares and hi's in a song and how they sound with melodies~

is this an issue with professional recording, i mean, do ppl tweek drums perfectly for a final cut?

[beat you down]

thanks for the quick replies,
but... isn't there a way to realy measure the exact note of a kick?
i don't want to trust my ears on this one.

[Samplecraze]

Originally Posted by beat you down

thanks for the quick replies,
but... isn't there a way to realy measure the exact note of a kick?
i don't want to trust my ears on this one.

If the kick is created from waveform up, pulse or sine, then keying it is easier.

BUT, as most kicks have noise in their makeup then these frequencies are much harder to key as they are both random and non fundamental.

[beat you down]

what i do now usually is...
sample a kick, replace (highpass the kick) the original lows with a synth/ bass stab that's in tune with the song.
i was just wondering if there's an easy way to analyze kicks so i don't have to replace the kick's original lows/quality.

[andrewj]

Perhaps mlodyne will find the exact pitch? Anyone tried this? Read the same article but I must admit that I never tuned my kicks before! Think I should!

[Big 3rd]

I think going through all that for the kick to blend properly with the bass is a little much. You will know if they are right for each other just by hearing it (you should anyway). But if they aren't, move on. Choose another.

[beat you down]

i know it sounds like a lot for nothing, but... besides if it sounds better or not, you might end up with a couple dbs more room at the end so you can turn shit up some more.

[filterayok]

I'm tellin ya ALL the major producers pay attention to the pitch of their kiks snares congas and all that----its not about "making room" for the frequency... its because when the drums are hitting the correct "notes" they sound better----all those neptune trax that seem to rely on nothing but the drums, are like that---All the percussion is perfectly tuned to the song-- dont kid yourself---the pitch of the drums is VERY important with hiphop

and if you cant use ur ear to determine the pitch of the drums, then u have a bigger problem all together

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by filterayok

and if you cant use ur ear to determine the pitch of the drums, then u have a bigger problem all together

i was told kicks are too short and low for the human ear to detect the exact pitch, so if you can... well...

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by beat you down

i was told kicks are too short and low for the human ear to detect the exact pitch, so if you can... well...

thats bullshit-----post up ur kik i'll tell u what note it is----maybe u cant say to the EXACT CENTS, but u can definately figure what note it is and what key it should be played in...

[beat you down]

thanks for the offer, but...

i was talking about exact cents indeed, i can hear it roughly, i just want to run some tests (therefore i need the exact pitch) to see how much dbs i could 'win' during mixdown, i'm tryin' out every kick and bass tip/trick/technique i'll come across since i promissed myself i won't make another beat ever before i up my kick/bass game

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by beat you down

thanks for the offer, but...

i was talking about exact cents indeed, i can hear it roughly, i just want to run some tests (therefore i need the exact pitch) to see how much dbs i could 'win' during mixdown, i'm tryin' out every kick and bass tip/trick/technique i'll come across since i promissed myself i won't make another beat ever before i up my kick/bass game

i guess ur more about mixing then... cuz what i'm talkin about might actually make a noticeable difference in ur productions,,,, i mean, $1.75 and a db more headroom'll get you a busspass, nomesayin?

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by filterayok

I'm tellin ya ALL the major producers pay attention to the pitch of their kiks snares congas and all that----its not about "making room" for the frequency... its because when the drums are hitting the correct "notes" they sound better----all those neptune trax that seem to rely on nothing but the drums, are like that---All the percussion is perfectly tuned to the song-- dont kid yourself---the pitch of the drums is VERY important with hiphop

and if you cant use ur ear to determine the pitch of the drums, then u have a bigger problem all together

amen...the pitch of drums and the way differently pitched percussion interacts is very very important!

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by filterayok

i guess ur more about mixing then... cuz what i'm talkin about might actually make a noticeable difference in ur productions,,,, i mean, $1.75 and a db more headroom'll get you a busspass, nomesayin?

i know what you'r saying, it's just that i'm in a zone where i force myself to concentrate on this type of shit into detail for a minute, i'll get back to actually creating soon... hopefully

thanks...

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by beat you down

thanks for the offer, but...

i was talking about exact cents indeed, i can hear it roughly, i just want to run some tests (therefore i need the exact pitch) to see how much dbs i could 'win' during mixdown, i'm tryin' out every kick and bass tip/trick/technique i'll come across since i promissed myself i won't make another beat ever before i up my kick/bass game

to be totally honest buddy, you sound REALLY pressed the pitch of a drum is indeed very very important, but being close is all that matters, remember, good musicianship and production is not dependent solely on precision. Music isn't about read-outs and quantifiable values on digital displays! if it sounds right, it is right; if it feel right its even better thumbsup

[adrianex]

Originally Posted by themaestro

amen...the pitch of drums and the way differently pitched percussion interacts is very very important!

Plus is what make the difference in a good producer/beatmaker and "using just luck" ones. I spend sometimes more time selecting the rigth sound for the beat than making it, just because it makes me more creative when its sounding good.



Good thread

Cheers

[blayz2002]

No I have no relationship with Modern Beats at all, execept I have bought from them so I am on thier emailing list and received these 2 recently ...quite helpfull:

Part One;

' When producing Hip Hop, the single most important aspect of the drum mix is the kick. When mixed correctly, the kick serves as a solid foundation behind the whole production. However, what most engineers & producers do NOT know is that there is more to mixing kicks than mere choice of samples, compression settings, & EQ.

Hardly discussed at all, is the secret technique used by Pro's where the kicks in a mix are finely tuned to the first musical note (tonic) of a song's key. "What's the big deal about tuning a kick to the key of my song?" you might ask. Well, it's a very big deal! In fact, applying this technique correctly can set a producer apart from the sea of amateurs for evermore...

The fact is kicks DO have pitch, low frequency pitch. Therefore, in terms of a kick's pitch embedded within a song's own key signature, a kick can either work against or with the resonance of your entire mix. And perhaps even more important, without tuning a kick to the song's tonic, the entire output level of your mix will forever remain un-optimized!

What do we mean? We mean "out of tune" kicks equal a forced lower output due to low end pitch & frequency conflicts. In other words, you'll never be able to truly maximize the output of any mix until your kick resonates with the key of the song at hand. Once the kicks in a mix resonate where their pitched oscillations match the song's natural key & primary frequency, the song's dynamic range & output level potential expand greatly!

Having just introduced this powerful yet highly guarded technique, there are several crucial aspects you must learn one-by-one.'

Part Two;

' Sometimes it may be difficult to identify which musical note or key the kick is resonating at. For an easier method in figuring which note/key the kick is resonating, temporarily transpose or pitch shift the kick sample to exactly one octave above it's root pitch. This will allow you to more easily identify the kick's key because mid to high frequency pitches are easier to discern when compared to low frequency pitches.

For further clarification of the kick's true key, you can transpose the kick's pitch up 1 additional octave and then sweep its pitch back down in octave-by-octave increments, confirming that each octave reveals the same resonating note/key as the other 2 octaves. With this greater span of referenced pitches across 3 whole octaves, you can be confident you are accurately identifying the kick's tonal resonance and key.

Lastly, upon identifying a kick's pitch, you may find the kick does not resonate exactly 100% over it's closest note or key. We highly recommend adjusting the pitch using "cent" values until the kick's peak resonance lands over the nearest musical note exactly. Repeat the above procedure for all the kicks in your production until you have identified the resonating note of each kick used.

After going through the motions a couple of times, you will no doubt have become a pro at pinpointing ANY kick's tonal resonance! Stay tuned for exciting additional tips on becoming an expert at matching a kick's tonal resonance EXACTLY with a song's key while eliminating hard to find bass conflicts!'

I' post the next email when I get it.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

Lastly, upon identifying a kick's pitch, you may find the kick does not resonate exactly 100% over it's closest note or key. We highly recommend adjusting the pitch using "cent" values until the kick's peak resonance lands over the nearest musical note exactly. Repeat the above procedure for all the kicks in your production until you have identified the resonating note of each kick used.

so you adjust the kick to the different bassnotes it coincides with throughout the whole song?? (so you'd have differently pitched kicks depending on the note it'd coincide with)

or do they mean you need to adjust all layered kicks so their pitches match??

what if you switch the root in the middle of a song?

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by beat you down

so you adjust the kick to the different bassnotes it coincides with throughout the whole song?? (so you'd have differently pitched kicks depending on the note it'd coincide with)

or do they mean you need to adjust all layered kicks so their pitches match??

what if you switch the root in the middle of a song?

My interpretation is all the kicks, not tune each kick to the note it lands on that woudl take the hardness off the drums...although you could use that if you were using like 808's instead of any bass to give the bottom end melody.

If you change the root key in the middle of the song then the kick in theory should follow...but use your ears!

Personally I only tune to the lead note in the track i.e. the first note. I have certain tracks where I've made a 808 style kick from a sine way vsti and then played like 2 different notes where the notes change in the track, but that's when I'm layering it under a more mid sound kick/s that just plays the lead note. That can work on more R&B or club type beats, but for straight hip hop you want the hardness.

The thing with all this is you have to experiment, don't use it as a rule let you ears be the judge and trust what sounds good to you...that's called building your owning signature.

Scott Storch is known for tuning his kicks to get them in the key off the song..have a listen to his tracks to get a picture of what it sounds like

[beat you down]

thanks.
yeah i was also thinking about keeping the mid kick layer the same and make the low kick layer change 'along' throughout the song.

[Methlab]

easiest way to do that is to grab the sub you want and pitch it to the root note of the song. then export that and save it.

then load it into your sampler and you will be able to play it on your keyboard with all the different notes to form a bassline.

[STARSKI]

i've never changed the kick to match each 808 or bassline but this might be interesting to try although like others have said i would only do this with the lower end kick if i was layering...

[beat you down]

yeah i tried matching each kick to the bassnotes it coincides with througout a loop, sounds a bit wimpy or strange like the foundation of the song is gone or shakey.

[STARSKI]

so maybe better to just do this to the root note

[Methlab]

Yeah..I hear guys change the kicks sometimes in beats and it works, but its on 2 chord progessions.

Anyway, no need to do all that..thats what bassplayers are for! I'll take the work!!

[beat you down]

yep